The Running Thread - 2018

[Simba's Girl]

TY @cavepig that does help a lot!

 

[Sleepless Knight]

@Sleepless Knight, I can see where you're coming from. Let me address your concerns as best I can.



Agreed. A full is absolutely different than a half marathon when considering fuel. It's entirely possible to finish a HM without taking in fuel. But finishing a marathon without fuel is significantly more difficult. I'll spare the math, but if a normal person with a normal metabolic efficiency where to run a marathon, they'd run out of glycogen in the body at about mile 16-19. If the person were to run slower, then that value could be extended outwards. If faster, then it would come sooner. Assumptions are being made with that calculation, but it goes to show how a HM could be done without fuel but a marathon is a different matter.

Now, the point would be asked then, could you practice fueling for a marathon in training without having to do 5-6 hour runs? Yes, you can. In my training programs I assign no fuel to be consumed on runs less than 90 min (electrolytes are acceptable). For all training runs longer than 90 min, nutrition/fuel practice is required. Unless someone is highly trained and looking to squeeze that last bit of juice then we'd play around with glycogen depletion training. But I don't pull that tool from the toolbox unless I have to. During those runs of longer than 90 min is when you find what works best for you. Do you like chews, gels, drinks, etc.? Do you like flavors or brands? How much water do you need to consume for things to appropriately digest? All these things can be accomplished during training runs that occur between 90-180 min.

The one thing you can't do on a training run limited to 180 min is test how your body will respond to fuel in the very late stages of a race. And that's a completely valid point. As most people find, as the race goes longer and longer the body becomes less and less tolerant to actually absorbing whatever you throw at it. The best thing to do is to load up on a decent amount of carbs in the early stages of the race when the body is more tolerant. That includes taking a bolus dose of carbs about 15 min prior to the start since this is like a "free time" where the body isn't focused on racing quite yet. Then load up on carbs early and often (with a plan in mind) as to continue to push back that glycogen depletion wall. The maximal per hour carb consumption limit is 90 g. If one were to consume 90g per hour, then a 250 pound male marathoner (just as an example and not to be a guess about you) running around a 6 hour marathon would consume around 560g carbs which by the average calculation would last a person ~37 miles (assuming they had the fitness to run a marathon around 6 hours). Far more than the 26.2 needed to go the distance. Although I don't recommend aiming for 90g since it's quite close to the tolerable limit. But just as an example.

So yes, limiting a run to 180 min in training could be a concern for the purpose of practicing late stage fuel consumption.



I can see this. I've typically found that consumption of water and pace will be a determining factor for whether one needs to use the bathroom. Generally that urge to go happens during the early stages of the race and not as often during the late stages (usually a tad more dehydrated in the late stages). For me, I practice this on a daily basis. I aim not to take in any liquids within 120 min of starting a run. I've done this thousands of times now and only a mere handful as it ever caused me an issue where I had the urge to go mid-run. So my suggestion is to practice on a daily basis the timing of liquid consumption pre-run and see if you get the urge.

But at the end of the day, even in the most planned outcomes, when you have to go you have to go. And there really isn't any amount of practicing that's going to change that. So if you find you train multiple 5-6 hour training runs and never have to use the bathroom, but on race day it happens. There's not much else to say except, time to go.



Also valid. It is completely true that the point in the race that is usually the crux for most runners occurs around mile 18-20. It's true of those who do 11 mile max LRs and true for those who do 23 mile max LRs. Since the LR is going to be much slower than the actual race day pace (if following either Galloway or my plan correctly), then you won't really be simulating that true feeling that comes at mile 20. But we can get close to simulating it.

Galloway gets there by providing a single day stimulus up to that 24, 25, or 26 mile max run. I provide that stimulus by not allowing you to be "fresh" entering the LR. Instead of the super LR, you instead do two runs consecutively that carries some fatigue from one day to the next. The idea is that allowing the body some rest between these bouts of exercise mitigates the risk of a super LR but yields a similar training stimulus both physically and mentally. And that's an important consideration with my plans. While I might not do a 24, 25, or 26 mile LR, it by no means means my plans are easier than Galloway's. The plans I write are tough at the end of them, but the payoff can be big and it's my goal to get you to the starting line as healthy as I can. There's risk in consecutive LRs and there's risk in a super LR. Neither is the right way, just two different ways to garner the same adaptation response in the body to yield the necessary tools to finish the race.

One thing I offer is to consider my consecutive training runs not as they appear. On the schedule it might say 7 LR + 11 LR on the weekend. That 11 LR isn't like training for miles 0-11 of the marathon. Because of the fatigue from the 7 mile LR the day prior, it's more like training for miles 14-26. Is it a perfect simulation? Most definitely not. The end of the marathon is super tough. It generally takes me 2 weeks to recover from the race and another 2-4 weeks before I feel normal again. That's not true of a single training run that I do. By the time that 2.5 hr training run comes on Sunday (granted at MP + 9% so it's slower), I'm ready for another 1.5-2 hr training run on Tuesday. I'm able to stack multiple quality workouts close to each other because I don't require a massive recovery period. But as soon as I cross that threshold and go to my marathon pace and distance of 26.2 miles, then suddenly I'm taking as much as 4-6 weeks to fully recover and be normal again. So that's 2 days vs 4-6 weeks. A significant amount of damage occurs during a marathon. Dependent on how close you race to your maximal capability makes that recovery period longer and longer.

But at the end of the day, I won't be able to squash that fear for you. Only you can take that leap of faith that says "yes, a 3 hr run/walk max LR can lead to a successful marathon day". But just remember that the LR is merely a single piece in the entire puzzle. It gets a lot of buzz, but no one run defines the training cycle. It's the cumulative effect of all the training put together that leads to a successful day. I've had races where I missed or had to cut short the final LR. I never hit the maximal distance. And yet on race day, I usually do as good as I expected. And that's because of all the other 99% of training runs, not simply the one longest one.



Valid. My goal is to make the training plan fit around your life. Not make you fit your life around the training plan. You tell me what you can do. I tell you what to do with that time. But I'm always honest in what I believe the outcome will be. So someone could come to me and say I want to run a BQ but I can only train one day per week (an admittedly extreme example) and I'll simply say that it's going to be a really tough endeavor.

And I'm also here every step of the way. Something comes up and almost always in less than 24 hrs I'll tell you how to adjust the plan. I'll look at what I wrote, assess your situation, and then offer a suggested change. I'm always looking to maximize your performance on race day as best I can and that includes making multiple alterations along the way if necessary.



Valid. While Galloway's plan will require some serious recovery from the longest run which pushes out the next quality workouts, my plans generally stack them much closer together. But the key difference is that my plans typically don't allow you to fully recover during the training. They keep a low/medium hum of fatigue throughout. The goal for me is to progressively build that fatigue slowly so much so that you barely notice it's building. But ask others what that true taper feels like. Come race day you're going to feel like you've never felt before and realize just what that low/medium hum felt like throughout training.



Just like you, I continue to read. I can not become complacent that I know everything there is to writing training plans. I don't and never will. And that means that plans I wrote 12 months ago look completely different than they do now. I'm always adapting my training techniques based on the individual responses I get from the different people. Some people respond differently to different stimuli. Some people handle more or less training better. Always trying to get a good read on the users so I can better figure out their puzzles. So while I know a lot, I can absolutely keep learning and I think that's true of pretty much everyone.

Galloway's no different. I was listening to a podcast with him a few months ago. They combed their dataset and came to some new conclusions. He then rolled out those conclusions among his users to try and hone in his technique even several decades old now.



The speed thing is a matter of how it went about being accomplished. Lots of different ways to attack it and I wouldn't be ready to toss in the towel on improving speed quite yet. Lots of tools in the toolbox to try and solve this one. Another one of my core philosophies is balance in training. It may simply be that you upset the balance in training and this led to some issues you were seeing.

I appreciate this detailed response so much. Am I totally off base in seeing some similarities between the back to back 5 and 14 mile runs that Galloway calls for in his non Goofy/Dopey challenge plans and yours albeit with more running earlier in the week to work up to Dopey? What are your thoughts if I had no more than one or two 5 hour slow runs in a custom plan to address my concerns that only time can resolve? Or is that playing with fire?

Caveat: I've not tried @DopeyBadger's plans, so I can't compare in any way. Nor have I used Galloway's. I make my own, I don't go as high in mileage as Galloway, and I am a 6+ hour marathoner, so I can share my personal experience with the items you mention.

1. Yes... training runs showed me that what I tolerate, and what is helpful, especially in late miles.

2. Less critical for me - the beauty of WDW is restrooms everywhere, so I never worried about needing one and not having one. But learning how to get it done quickly (read: getting sweaty capris back up without taking 10 minutes) in training was helpful!

3. This, for sure. For me, there's a period of intense physical discomfort that comes along around mile 17-18ish; if I push through it, I feel better on the other side. Having done that in training, I knew on race day I'd get through it.

The biggest thing training runs of 5+ hours do for me is eliminate the not knowing what it will be like in and on my body. Because I really need to not add that in to the constant mental alertness that comes with navigating a crowded, sensory-stimulating race course. I've finished all 3 marathons mentally exhausted, but physically feeling like I could go another 5 miles. And TBH, I really enjoy those super long training runs! BUT I'm not chasing times or PRs, which I'm sure makes a difference.


Via Napoli, Capricciosa! The margherita pizza at Wolfgang Puck Express at Disney Springs is a close 2nd.

Thank you so much. I've said it before, but I don't believe I can say it enough. I really value this community. Spend any amount of time on social media these days and you'll very quickly find people arguing with each other, insulting each other, and even downright celebrating the death of a prominent person who they disagree with. But around here, I feel like we actually care about each other and don't look down on someone else because they hold a different point of view than us. Even on opinions about medals, it tends to end at "I don't like the medal for my reasons, but I'm happy you do." It's so refreshing. Especially from a "competition" standpoint since it could quickly devolve into thinking that because runner A has accomplished this, therefore they are automatically better than runner B. On these boards I feel like the more accomplished and/or elite runners make a point to be very encouraging to the newest and slowest among us. And those who have made peace with their speed or complete lack thereof enjoy it for the experience.

I'm only 2 days into my first official marathon training, so I do not have the history or expertise as these veterans on here do. But I know where you are coming from in your questioning and decision making about the training choices.
One thing that I've sort of embraced (and mostly for my very first half marathon but translating it to now) is that the race will be kind of like a continuation of the training. So it will be an experiment. I'm going to get that automatic PR and so all the "what ifs" I am ok with happening. What if I need to take bathroom breaks...I will find out and learn from it. What if I feel a ton of pain or tired at a certain point? I will find out and learn from it.
Instead of doing the 26.2 a few weeks prior to my race to find all these things out...I'm just gonna do the race to find them out. With proper Dopeybadger training prior.
And then if I decide to do a second marathon in my life. Like say...jan 2019...then I'll have that "training run" of a first race to draw from.
But I'm still going to practice all my fueling etc like Billy so eloquently explained above. If I'm gonna suffer for 5 hours (or however long it takes) I'm super okay with only doing that once this year.

My humble newbie two cents

I appreciate this perspective. Sometimes I get so focused on controlling as much of the race experience as possible that I forget that I can really only control my preparation for the race.

Re @Sleepless Knight 's question about which plan and how long should the long runs be.

Some additional data points, in no particular order:

I marathon PRed by 36 minutes using an @DopeyBadger plan, with the longest run being 2.5 hours (16 miles). The idea is that because of cumulative fatigue, the long run simulates the last 16 miles of a marathon, not the first. DB probably already explained that, but just in case.

It doesn't do much good to do those excessively longs runs if you end up injured and don't make it to the starting line.

Re fueling: Pretty easy to practice on the long run and get a feel for what will work. I find that a mix of solids and liquids, especially early on is best. I use salted Fig Newtons, cut in half, in a zip lock bag. For me, getting some solid carbs postpones the point where your body says it has had enough Gatorade/Powerade.

Re bathrooms: My first couple of marathons I excessively hydrated, and had to make a bunch of pit stops. Let's just say maybe I made more pit stops than I visited porta-potties.

I look at it like this: do professional football players play hour long practice games every week? No, because it's too hard on the body. Instead, they work on drills to improve specific skills that all come together on game day to allow them to go full tilt.

I'm running out of words that resemble thank you. I appreciate your thoughts about fueling because it makes me feel like I just need to remember to fuel at the right times before and during the marathon. As a huge football fan and former manager of my high school football team, your football analogy brought the point home perfectly.

Also re @Sleepless Knight 's long run musings...

I have not done a marathon, but I did do a DB plan for my spring HM (and I still owe him my testimonial ) but in the past I have felt like I needed that time on my feet to keep the later stages of the race from becoming a death slog.

In particular, last October I ran my 9th HM and I physically felt the worst during it than at any other race. There were a lot of environmental factors (cold and torrential rain) that contributed to that, but also I was coming off an injury for 4 months in the spring and while I did the training plan with my running group for the fall race, their plans always train for time, not distance. So, I put in the same amount of time as everyone else, but I am a much slower runner (my PR is 2:45 from 2.5 years ago and I have not come close to it since... everything has been in the 2:50-3:05 range since then). Our longest long run was, IIRC, 130 minutes, and I barely made 10 miles because I ran around the cemetary when we were done to try and round off the mileage, and I think I ran almost up to 140 minutes. We also were running 3x a week, which I also did for all my previous races, but I ran all my weekend long runs for distance not matter how long they took and topped out at 13 miles for Galloway/runDisney plans and I think 10-12 for most of my other ones. During the race last fall, my legs started shutting down around mile 8-9 and by mile 10, I was walking more than running. I felt like it was because I had barely gotten to 10 miles in the training, even though "everyone" always says you only need to go 10 miles in training (like "everyone" says that about 20 for marathon training).

Well, I was wrong. I was really scared of the back to back days for my DB plan. Even though I did not PR or hit my goal time (we weren't training for PR, I am a good 30 lbs heavier than I was when I PR'd before and did not have as good of a base coming off of winter running, plus there were weather issues that slowed me down from hitting goal), I felt really good the whole race... well as good as you can when you are running a HM in T+D of 145-150 with full sun. I maxxed out at 10.5 miles in training for a single run. The difference was that he had me running 4x a week, vs my 3 previously, and previously my Galloway plans (and my other plans that were really just modified Galloway ones) called for 2x 30 minutes during the week then the long run on the weekend. Well, he had me run more than 30 minutes the 3 weekdays, and one of them was always what I would consider a longish run... the day before my long run. So my Fri/Sat near the end of the plan was like 5/8 one week, then 6/10.5 two weeks later. I never dreamed of running a single step the day before my long run before... I was trying to conserve as much energy as I could for my long run. It was really scary for me to run back to back days like that after previously never ever running 2 days in a row, I was worried I would get injured or just be too tired to do my long run... but I think that was really the key difference. Sure, I did not get to 13 or 15 or whatever like the more advanced Galloway plans (like I think one of the rD ones went up to like 17 miles for the HM plan) in a single run, but I did run 13 and 16.5 within a 24 hour period.

I appreciate you taking the time to explain what you had been doing and what changed with a @DopeyBadger custom plan. This really helps me work through my own concerns and see how this new approach may be better for you.

In some respects, tackling the marathon and Goofy or Dopey as well in this specific case is a natural way to continue pushing myself as a runner. In my first couple of years as a runner, I didn't dare even attempt a 5K the day before a half because I didn't want to risk my legs for the half. And the half was part of a component challenge that could only be earned with finishing the half. The day after my very first half, I was in line to get a medal photo with Chip and Dale. There were some ladies also in line who had all of their medals. Goofy (possibly the old unofficial Dopey before runDisney added the 10K and formalized it) and the Disneyland Half, maybe the Disneyland 5K too, and certainly the coast to coast. I remember being in complete awe that someone could run that much and not be very sore considering how sore I felt. Now here I am asking questions about something that even as recently as a year ago I said would never do.

 

[flav]

Now here I am asking questions about something that even as recently as a year ago I said would never do.

I so feel like that these days!
Never say never

 

[GreatLakes]

QOTD: Today is the first day of summer with fall starting 9/22. What are your running goals this summer?

My summer goals are working on speed. I have been looking at the W&D 10K age group results for the past few years and I should be able to place in my age group so I'm dedicating my summer to training for that 10K like a I would a full. I have a plan with speed work, hill work. temp runs, and everything, just adjusted for the 10K. I'd really like to get in under 40:00 but I don't think I will need that time to place, it is just the secondary goal to placing.

I'm doing the challenge so with any luck I can also place in the half as well. I'm only about 2 minutes off of placing there based on last year's times.

Hey guys - been absent for a while. Had abdominal surgery (cancer scare) in late January/early February. I am finally past the surgery and have started running again. So this QOTD is very appropriate for me as I reassess my running goals for the year.

Essentially, my VO2 Max went from 51 to 38 from months of forced layoff from all exercise (seriously, I wasn't allowed to do anything but walk for months, and much of that was very slow). I started jogging again 4 weeks ago and have already improved my VO2 Max to 42, but man is it going to be hard to get back above 50. I have to put together a training plan to get there, and I haven't been this weak (as a runner) in my adult life. Really not sure what that will look like yet, but instead of taking the "stay healthy" approach during these months I am going to be pushing myself.

I would love to hear thoughts from others who have faced a similar hurdle. I don't have any races planned, but I really want/need to improve my VO2 Max.

Glad you are back. Man Bun Run does a podcast and the Kara Goucher episode (link) has some discussion about coming back from an injury mentally. Might be worth a listen.

 

[dis_or_dat]

Pizza - pepperoni. I like super greasy ny style best

@BuckeyeBama glad to hear you're back on the horse after that scare. My Vo2 max dropped from 57 to 39 over the course of my pregnancy. I started running after the baby was 2 months old and after 8 months of generally slow and easy miles (0-6 miles) it's back up to 54-55. I try to run at least 2-3 miles daily since it affects my mood.

Long race report since I haven't raced in over 13 months:
Signed up last minute for a local 10k but wasn't sure where my fitness level was at (see paragraph above). I quit speed training months ago after an injury and just took slow easy runs since.

Tried to run blind and take my first mile easy but noticed I was breathing hard and wasn't sure if it was just nerves because I didn't feel like I was pushing it, so looked down at my watch and saw a 7:06 pace. Yikes! Pulled back, but still saw a 7:06 pace at the 1 mile marker. Tried to relax a little, but was going 7:07 at 2 miles. I slowed dramatically afterwards, but it may be because the guy I was pacing behind was fading pretty fast. But I was angry at how I once again fell into the trap of going out too fast when I felt tired after mile 4. I did "chomp" a few people, but I had a feeling a woman I passed around mile 4 was going to race past me at the finish line. Since I was running mostly blind, I miscalculated and sprinted towards the finish line... that ended up being almost a mile away. I was disheartened and slowed down a lot but near the end was able to get back to a faster pace. And yes, at the end that woman beat me by 10 seconds.

Anyways, somehow I PR'd! 43:31
6th female overall and 2nd in my AG!

 

[beatlecat42]

Baltimore Women's Classic this morning was HOT and HUMID like crazy. But we finished (yay!) and they learned from last year and had more than enough cooling towels (double yay!) and it was overall a nice time spent with mama.

Questions!

Fun Friday QOTD: Yesterday was the start of what some would say is the biggest sporting event in the world! Do you plan on watching any of the World Cup and what team are you pulling for?

meh. Although 2010 was fun, was working a bunch of different museums that summer, several of which were playing the matches.

QOTD: Do you prefer running alone or with a group? A group could just be one person or many.

I don't really like people in general and I'm slow, so happy to take it on my own. Admittedly, though, walking and talking with a couple of folks during races has been quite pleasant.

QOTD: Today you can officially book a package for 2019 for WDW. Who is booking today and where are you planning on staying for marathon weekend?!?!

I owe my sister a disney trip for her help in getting my dissertation done...but $$$ is tight at the moment, with a lot of things up in the air, so who knows when we'll get to go back.

QOTD: Today lets discuss water stops at races. Do you use them? Do you carry your own fluids and also use the water stops... or only one of the two? Best type of cups to have a water stops (plastic, paper, other)? Whats your method to getting the water down instead of all over you?

As a back-of-the-packer, it's necessary to bring fluids with me, just in case (too many races have had their water stops broken down by the time we get there), but will also take from water stops. Given that this morning I was dripping with sweat just standing in the heat before we started the 5k , I definitely need a high fluid intake.

QOTD: Today is the first day of summer with fall starting 9/22. What are your running goals this summer?

Build mileage back up for fall races. Also:

ATTQOTD: To not get heat stroke?

On food:
- no strong opinions on BBQ, other than to throw pit beef into the mix. Yum.
- NYC bagels are indeed the best bagels (it's scientific -- the water makes them awesome!) and not being able to get a real bagel down here stinks. When visiting the parents, have definitely made a detour solely to hit up H&H...because if your bagel can fit in a household toaster, it's not a proper bagel
- pizza: growing up, it's been weird to bridge two worlds (am from NYC, but my dad and his family are from Chicago), but both have their merits. Sometimes you just want a manhole-cover-sized casserole of dough and cheese and sausage (I'll happily be the lone defender of deep dish -- Lou Malnati's FTW!), and sometimes you need $1 greasy slices from a hole in the wall. One thing is for sure, though:

I've heard rumors that Papa John's is terrible.

Because it is.

 

[JulieODC]

Pizza - pepperoni. I like super greasy ny style best

@BuckeyeBama glad to hear you're back on the horse after that scare. My Vo2 max dropped from 57 to 39 over the course of my pregnancy. I started running after the baby was 2 months old and after 8 months of generally slow and easy miles (0-6 miles) it's back up to 54-55. I try to run at least 2-3 miles daily since it affects my mood.

Long race report since I haven't raced in over 13 months:
Signed up last minute for a local 10k but wasn't sure where my fitness level was at (see paragraph above). I quit speed training months ago after an injury and just took slow easy runs since.

Tried to run blind and take my first mile easy but noticed I was breathing hard and wasn't sure if it was just nerves because I didn't feel like I was pushing it, so looked down at my watch and saw a 7:06 pace. Yikes! Pulled back, but still saw a 7:06 pace at the 1 mile marker. Tried to relax a little, but was going 7:07 at 2 miles. I slowed dramatically afterwards, but it may be because the guy I was pacing behind was fading pretty fast. But I was angry at how I once again fell into the trap of going out too fast when I felt tired after mile 4. I did "chomp" a few people, but I had a feeling a woman I passed around mile 4 was going to race past me at the finish line. Since I was running mostly blind, I miscalculated and sprinted towards the finish line... that ended up being almost a mile away. I was disheartened and slowed down a lot but near the end was able to get back to a faster pace. And yes, at the end that woman beat me by 10 seconds.

Anyways, somehow I PR'd! 43:31
6th female overall and 2nd in my AG!

Way to go Mama!! Impressive!

 

[DopeyBadger]

I appreciate this detailed response so much. Am I totally off base in seeing some similarities between the back to back 5 and 14 mile runs that Galloway calls for in his non Goofy/Dopey challenge plans and yours albeit with more running earlier in the week to work up to Dopey? What are your thoughts if I had no more than one or two 5 hour slow runs in a custom plan to address my concerns that only time can resolve? Or is that playing with fire?

Similar, yes in it's concept. Run some the day prior to the LR in order to carry fatigue into the following run. It all has to do with the stimulus/adaptation/recovery cycle. By reducing the recovery cycle slowly over time, you force the body to make additional adaptations to the stimulus in order to be prepared to run again on a shorter timeframe. The difference would lie in the duration that Galloway schedules and that I do. And that he goes every other week, whereas I go every week.

The only way I could deal with a 5 hour training run mid-schedule was to consider it an "A" race. For that duration to be an "A" race, we'd have to schedule it at least 12 weeks prior to the Marathon Weekend. Which means you'd want to start training for that 5 hour run now, and then pull back and recover from it, and then build back up for Marathon Weekend. From a training standpoint, in my opinion you would be far better off physically if you didn't do it so that you could focus on training and reduce the necessary recovery. But there is definitely other advantages for doing it as discussed earlier. It's a classic pro/con situation.

 

[flav]

For that duration to be an "A" race, we'd have to schedule it at least 12 weeks prior to the Marathon Weekend. Which means you'd want to start training for that 5 hour run now, and then pull back and recover from it, and then build back up for Marathon Weekend.

Following with interest as I am starting to lineup my races for 2019... And probably Dopey 2020.
I am considering running my first Marathon in 2019 and the one that interests me is 12 weeks before Dopey!

 

[TheHamm]

I have to say I am enjoying the conversation on training and on eating to run- it is why I lurked here for quite some time- but the BBQ, Pizza, Ice Cream, and Alcohol topics keep me on the edge of my seat.

I want to ask about the cumulative fatigue idea and the lack of a requirement to train at full race distance. Is there a distance at which this no longer holds? Why am I interested? Life prevents me from running much more than an hour on a weekend, and that is dependent on what else we are doing (can I make 4 birthday parties, get groceries and pack lunches for the week AND sleep sufficiently? If not, running goes). So I tend to stack hour long runs during the week on my lunch hour or early AM and sometimes work and life foul this up and I end up running 4 days on 2 or 3 off, and I am surprised how much more sore my whole body is by day 4. I am a bit fuzzy on the math of "7 LR + 11 LR on the weekend. That 11 LR isn't like training for miles 0-11 of the marathon. Because of the fatigue from the 7 mile LR the day prior, it's more like training for miles 14-26. " where the second run is more stressful than if the 7 & 11 had been run as 18. I understand little of the strategy of training or recovery, but I imagine it can only help make my time more enjoyable if I do.

 

[GreatLakes]

I have to say I am enjoying the conversation on training and on eating to run- it is why I lurked here for quite some time- but the BBQ, Pizza, Ice Cream, and Alcohol topics keep me on the edge of my seat.

I want to ask about the cumulative fatigue idea and the lack of a requirement to train at full race distance. Is there a distance at which this no longer holds? Why am I interested? Life prevents me from running much more than an hour on a weekend, and that is dependent on what else we are doing (can I make 4 birthday parties, get groceries and pack lunches for the week AND sleep sufficiently? If not, running goes). So I tend to stack hour long runs during the week on my lunch hour or early AM and sometimes work and life foul this up and I end up running 4 days on 2 or 3 off, and I am surprised how much more sore my whole body is by day 4. I am a bit fuzzy on the math of "7 LR + 11 LR on the weekend. That 11 LR isn't like training for miles 0-11 of the marathon. Because of the fatigue from the 7 mile LR the day prior, it's more like training for miles 14-26. " where the second run is more stressful than if the 7 & 11 had been run as 18. I understand little of the strategy of training or recovery, but I imagine it can only help make my time more enjoyable if I do.

It is when you run a race that will take you more than 2 hours that I think you need to make sure you do longer long runs. As a very general rule of thumb you store about 2 hours worth of glycogen in your body. If you are going to run longer than you have those stores available you will switch to burning fat. A very important aspect of marathon training (or half if it will take you significantly longer than 2 hours) is to run through that depletion at least once during training. It is not something you want to test out the first time on race day.

I'm sure some of the more scientific minded posters here will provide a more detailed explanation but from when I first decided to do a marathon (my distance that pushed me past 2 hours) I read a lot about doing Glycogen Depletion runs and testing fueling strategies around those.

If you aren't able to schedule long runs that doesn't mean you can't do a race that pushes you past your threshold, you just want to make sure you are prepared for hitting that wall for the first time in a race and be ready for it to translate into a DNF if you are close to any cutoff times before accounting for it. I schedule my longer runs like I do mandatory meetings. They are on the calendar and I make sure I plan around them. I have plenty of 2 hour plus work commitments outside of business hours and treat the long runs the same way.

 

[rteetz]

So remember how we all hoped to get rid of Active fees? Well now we have a runDisney processing fee... $345 challenge plus a $22.77 processing fee. I went through the new registration process just now.

It looks pretty easy. It enters all your info for you with your Disney account. You can then add on more people to register as well as add on pre-order merchandise right away. They also give you the chance to add on a donation to the featured charity.

 

[TheHamm]

Well now we have a runDisney processing fee... $345 challenge plus a $22.77 processing fee.

 

[LSUlakes]

Sorry for being absent today. I have a stomach bug and well... it’s not fun. I hope to be back tomorrow.

 

[cavepig]

Sorry for being absent today. I have a stomach bug and well... it’s not fun. I hope to be back tomorrow.

oh man that sucks, feel better soon!

 

[jennamfeo]

Sorry for being absent today. I have a stomach bug and well... it’s not fun. I hope to be back tomorrow.

Ah boo! Hope you feel better soon!

 

[BuckeyeBama]

So remember how we all hoped to get rid of Active fees? Well now we have a runDisney processing fee... $345 challenge plus a $22.77 processing fee. I went through the new registration process just now.

It looks pretty easy. It enters all your info for you with your Disney account. You can then add on more people to register as well as add on pre-order merchandise right away. They also give you the chance to add on a donation to the featured charity.

LOL - rD took this over because they were missing out on $$.

 

[run.minnie.miles]

Unofficial QOTD: It's heating up out there, folks! How do you make sure you get enough water each day? Do you track ounces? Have a favorite cup/water bottle that helps?

(PS... Feel better soon @LSUlakes!)

 

[run.minnie.miles]

ATTUQOTD: I have a 24 oz tumbler and try to drink at least 4 of those per day. I am normally pretty hydrated, so I can tell quickly (and harshly) if I'm not getting enough water!
With that said- I am eyeing a hydro flask, so if anyone wants to convince me or talk me out of it...

 

[PrincessV]

Yikes, feel better @LSUlakes!

ATTUQOTD: I don't track, I just drink to thirst. Looking at the bottles I use to bring water to work, I'll guess I down about 70-90 ounces a day, not including what I use while running or in my morning cup of coffee.