The Running Thread - 2016

[Miranda]

And it makes long runs completely ridiculous. (Am I still out here? What day is it?)

That sounds like a regular long run day for me.

 

[camaker]

For one, I would put custom HR zones into your Garmin. Your resting HR is easy enough to calculate by getting your pulse in the morning a few minutes after you wake up but while you're still in bed. The max heart rate is a little tougher. General rule is 220 - age, but that formula doesn't work for everyone (including me). If you had a really hard workout (like an all-out 5k where you sprinted at the finish line), that might get you close to your max HR. Based on your hamstring injury, I wouldn't really suggest you go try to reach your max HR on a run until you're sure your hamstring will be okay. Maybe just use "220 - age" for now.

As far as pacing, I do think you are going too fast on your easy runs. If you have an 8:52 half marathon pace, your easy runs should be in the 10:25 to 11:10 pace range. You are currently running at about a 9:30 pace during your 4 minute run intervals such that when combined with your 45 second walk intervals you get to an 10:05-10:15 overall pace. So, it might be worth trying to slow it down to an overall 10:30+ pace and see what HR zones you're in then (with your new custom zones).

Thanks for the detailed replies @opusone and @DopeyBadger. I did some adjusting in the Garmin to reflect my resting HR and left my max at the value it has been using based on my performances so far (a little higher than 220-age). I also switched the Garmin from setting zones by max HR to %HRR. My resting rate isn't quite "still in bed in the morning", but it's an average over about a week of taking BP & HR as soon as I get to work in the morning. It may not be strictly accurate, but I don't think I'm going to be much below the calculated 56 bpm, if at all.

In light of the new plan, I may play around with going back to full running and dropping the intervals at least for a while to minimize the complexity of managing the HR zones. I've got a race this weekend, so it'll be next week before I can start putting the plan into practice.

All this brings me to the next couple of questions on the topic. First, what constitutes a Zone 2 workout? I know that sounds silly, but what percentage of time needs to be spent in the zone (50%, 75%, 85%, ...) to maximize benefits. Second, I've always measured progress based on a combination of the average paces I've been able to achieve during training runs and races and the distance of my long runs/weekly mileage. How do you measure progress based on HR-based training?

 

[LSUlakes]

This weekend we have the following folks with races! If you would like to adjust your goal, or are no longer racing this weekend let me know.

21 - @Chaitali - Semper Fi 5k (35:00 / N/A)
21 - @Disneyland_emily - Chocolate Sundae Run 5k (38:00 / N/A)
22 - @camaker - NCRC Half Marathon (NG / N/A)

Good luck this weekend!

 

[CheapRunnerMike]

New race to add for September

25 - croach - RNR Montreal half marathon (1:30)

Thanks!

Awesome! Montreal is a wonderful city for anyone that hasn't been before, one of the jewels of Canada. Enjoy your time in la belle province

Thanks - most people fail to reach their potential because they simply run too hard every time out. They think that running is too hard, but it is really that they are running too hard for their bodies to develop properly. Sure, you need to run hard sometimes. But for real development and improvement, you need to run slow. This is important for all runners, including world class athletes. At some point a Zone 2 run might mean 7 min/miles - but only if you allow your body to develop properly. It was for me when I was in the Army (though we just called them easy runs). Right now it is about a 10 min/mile effort, but that is improving, and it is improving with me only running "hard" once/week.

Chalk me up as another runner that used to run too hard too often. The greatest thing I did was discover trail running...not only are trails beautiful but they also force me to slow down. Whenever I have any sort of recovery run on my schedule I now get excited (used to dread them) because I know I'm heading to the woods!

 

[LSUlakes]

QOTD: What piece of equipment, or running accessory, do you not currently have that you want or plan to buy next?

ATTQOTD: Well I currently have a GPS watch and there really isn't anything "wrong" with it, but a new shinny forerunner 235 looks like a solid purchase...

 

[CheapRunnerMike]

QOTD: What piece of equipment, or running accessory, do you not currently have that you want or plan to buy next?

Nothing I really need right now, although new shoes are always welcome. Any money for new gear is earmarked for cycling.

 

[Chasing Dopey]

QOTD: What piece of equipment, or running accessory, do you not currently have that you want or plan to buy next?

My plan WAS to not buy anything! Being a gear junkie, I stocked up in the first year, and I have more than I need. So I'm good now, but a bike and the new 735XT might be in the pipeline in about 8 months.

 

[rteetz]

QOTD: What piece of equipment, or running accessory, do you not currently have that you want or plan to buy next?

I'm looking at buying a garmin. Not an expensive one just a cheaper basic one since I have an Apple Watch.

 

[gjramsey]

ATTQOTD: Probably a new water belt. And another pair of last years model of shoes that are currently my favorite. Brooks Glycerin.

 

[Princess_Nikki]

@LSUlakes - when you have a moment, please put me down for the November 2016 Wine & Dine Challenge.

 

[roxymama]

. Also, somehow I messed up and don't have a name for who is running the Michealob Ultra Chicago Spring 10k.

Hi @LSUlakes the Michalob Ultra Spring 10k was me....past tense. I decided not to register due to my current foot injury. I'm more bummed about missing the free breakfast buffet afterwards than anything!

Related to the foot injury, I have a question for the board...it's probably plantar fasciitis and my doctor's appt is 5/31 so I won't know 100% until then what it is and what my treatment will be. My family has a history of it apparently and my sis used to sleep in a foot brace to help the tendon for a few months until it would resolve itself (this is something I just found out last night after talking to her.) But anyways, my question is: What do I do with myself between now and my dr. appt on 5/31??? Walking doesn't seem to bother my foot, only running. So will I be messing myself up by taking walks? Or should I instead use my gym membership to hit the stationary bikes?
I have a "fun-run" on 6/5 that is looking like it will be a "fun-walk" now.

 

[DopeyBadger]

All this brings me to the next couple of questions on the topic. First, what constitutes a Zone 2 workout? I know that sounds silly, but what percentage of time needs to be spent in the zone (50%, 75%, 85%, ...) to maximize benefits.

For me, when I "train easy" (Zone 2) it is 100% of the workout. So on Monday, Friday, and Saturdays my workouts are entirely in zone 2 up to 90 minutes in duration. Then, I add in more zone 1 or 2 work on Tuesday and Thursday either as a warm-up/cool-down or resting intervals (not walking but very slow running). In total, about 80% of the time I spend training is in zone 1 or 2 (maybe barely creeping into 3).

Second, I've always measured progress based on a combination of the average paces I've been able to achieve during training runs and races and the distance of my long runs/weekly mileage. How do you measure progress based on HR-based training?

I don't train by heart rate per se. The workouts I do cover a large range of paces. These paces also just happen to fall into heart rate zones. My effort guides my pacing similar to a heart rate zone workout. If the workout is at 40 degrees vs 100 degrees the pace will likely be different. But my goal is to give the same effort at 100 as I do at 40. That means my pace will likely be slower at 100. With that being said, when my heart rate monitor was working I was tracking it versus paces to see my improvement. This is how I did it.



I plotted the pace of the run versus the average heart rate. I usually chose a few miles in the middle of the run to average together. These runs were done at similar elevation, similar temperature, and a similar route. It allowed me to measure my progress over time. As you can see, Pre-Hansons (when I trained hard all the time) has a higher heart rate for paces than Hansons (slowed down training and bumped to 6x/week). So a similar condition run was taking less beats per minute by my heart which meant I was getting stronger and fitter. Look at a 10:20 min/mile for example, Pre-Hansons that was a 144 bpm and during Hansons it dropped to 120-128. That's a big difference and constitutes actually doing more zone 2 type workouts. I should have been running much slower during my Pre-Hanson training.

The line of best fit was a means by which I was attempting to create a personal race predictor calculator. It worked really well. For my October marathon, my PR was 4:20, I trained for a 3:45, and my half PR suggested a 3:45, but my HR calculator predicted 3:39. I ended up running a 3:38.

The paces I choose to train at are based on my current fitness (either a recent PR, or for this next personal cycle what I felt would have been my PR given ideal conditions) and then I input them into a training pace calculator (like the one I broke down into decimals from Hansons). When choosing how to run in a training cycle I first choose the paces and then the duration of each day. This means that mileage is just a function of intensity X duration, and mileage is not a factor in choosing what I run each day. Here are two journal entires (1 and 2) on how I create a custom training plan. I believe the methods on how I choose to train are relatable to just about anyone.

 

[ebradley23]

ATTQOTD - well, considering I just got replacement shoes and headphones yesterday, there isn't much I need running wise. I also got a pair of the Ride 9s for Mother's Day, so I have two new shoes in rotation. My 620 works fine, and I'll use it until it dies.

Actually, I'm working on building my non-running wardrobe. I have only bought running related clothes for a while now, so I'm in desperate need to an update in my regular clothes.

 

[ebradley23]

ATTQOTD: Probably a new water belt. And another pair of last years model of shoes that are currently my favorite. Brooks Glycerin.

I highly recommend fitletic for water belts. They put grippy stuff (that's the technical term) on the back, so theirs don't budge. I don't ever have to adjust mine mid-run - even during the marathon.

 

[Dis5150]

ATTQOTD: I need a new Garmin that has battery life for a marathon and marathon training. And I will need new shoes before my marathon in September.

I am in training for my new job and am having trouble keeping up with this page! Who knew they would want me to work at work??

 

[Barca33Runner]

QOTD: What piece of equipment, or running accessory, do you not currently have that you want or plan to buy next?

I have a shoe problem. I'm not a sneakerhead, because I don't have the type of disposable income to just light it on fire in that fashion, but I definitely have too many shoes and a compulsion to buy every cool pair of shoes I see. With running shoes I love the look of most Nike Flyknit shoes even though I know I hate running in them. I've gotten better at only buying shoes that have actual utility for me; but it's a struggle.

I also have entertained the idea of getting a running watch, specifically the Garmin FR 235, but I don't think I would get as much use out of it as I should.

 

[roxymama]

ATTQOTD: I'd love to have a treadmill in my house, but it may not be feasible with our low ceilings in our basement. For something more attainable, I'd like to finally get over my fear of running shorts and buy a pair. I currently have some longer spandex "bike type" shorts and then everything else is capris. In my head I'm still bigger than I really am right now. #beinghonest
Edited to add: I'm buying new shoes soon...I almost forgot to add that. Brooks Ghost 8 most likely.

To echo the people who said they were training too hard and then went to easy paces, this was me too!! One of the training journals I follow was describing the easy pace plan and my brain broke thinking about that concept. So I asked for help and @DopeyBadger gave me training paces based on my current fitness and race paces. I'm a tad slower than many of you, my easy pace is 11:14. But I will say the nice side-effect is that since I know I only have one "tough/tempo" type run a week, then it makes the easy&long runs seem like cake in comparison and I'm less dreadful of most of my workouts now. Also I came within 2 sec of hitting my super secret goal on my big race so it does work.

 

[ebradley23]

ATTQOTD: I'd love to have a treadmill in my house, but it may not be feasible with our low ceilings in our basement. For something more attainable, I'd like to finally get over my fear of running shorts and buy a pair. I currently have some longer spandex "bike type" shorts and then everything else is capris. In my head I'm still bigger than I really am right now. #beinghonest
Edited to add: I'm buying new shoes soon...I almost forgot to add that. Brooks Ghost 8 most likely.

Let me tell you, those running shorts you are referring to aren't all they're cracked up to be. All they are going to do is take you to wedgie town with their built in, ill-fitting undies. I wear shorts, but they are still the tights kind. I love these Saucony shorts. I stalk Amazon almost daily to look for sales. I have found these as low as $15 a pair on several occasions. They have a 5" inseam, so they don't wind up crawling up while you are running. I bought a pair of similar Mizuno shorts, and I'm pretty sure they started choking me from the bottom up around mile 2 of a 16 miler. It was awful!

 

[dis_or_dat]

ATTQOTD: With all this zone talk, I'd love to get a Garmin 235, but it's too expensive and I think it would dwarf my wrist.

Edited to add: I see that there's going to be a big sale on the Garmin 235 starting tomorrow (am I allowed to say where here?), but reading the reviews of the HR monitor makes me second guess it. Also ... it's still too expensive with 25% off!

 

[opusone]

All this brings me to the next couple of questions on the topic. First, what constitutes a Zone 2 workout? I know that sounds silly, but what percentage of time needs to be spent in the zone (50%, 75%, 85%, ...) to maximize benefits. Second, I've always measured progress based on a combination of the average paces I've been able to achieve during training runs and races and the distance of my long runs/weekly mileage. How do you measure progress based on HR-based training?

I actually don't train by heart rate, but I do watch and analyze my heart rate to make sure everything makes sense. I train by pace. That being said, when I look at my past easy runs, I usually spend 80-90% of the time in Zone 2. This morning, I was a little faster than I should have been (by about 5-10 secs/mi), and I was in Zone 2 69% of the time.

On your second question, I measure progress almost exclusively by race times. If my race times are improving, then I figure I'm making progress. Unfortunately, not all races are exactly the same, so I usually only compare races if they are similar in terrain and environmental conditions.

I think there are some HR training programs out there that perform a test every three weeks or so where you run (usually on a track to keep things consistent) a 4-5 mile test at a specific heart rate. Over time, you should see your speed improve at the same heart rate. I think this test also can provide a sign of when to switch from aerobic training to anaerobic training with certain HR plans.