The Liberal Thread #2 - No Debate Please

[DISUNC]

I don't care how old McCain is, but it would affect some voters, I think. Here's a poll from last year: http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/ar...resident_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist_/

His Age is the ONLY thing that don't bother me!

 

[crazyforgoofy]

I didn't make my point as clearly as I meant to about the attacks on the 'other' Democratic candidate by a few posters. You're making the cons job too easy for them. They'll use your words against you during the general election. Why give them the fodder?

We've got to hang together until we have a candidate and then all get behind that person. Of course I'll be happy if its my candidate but as long as the win is fair and square I'm going to campaign like heck to get a Democrat in the White House. Those who say they won't are doing a grave disservice to this country.

Now, go out there and kick some conservative booty, metaphorically speaking, of course.

 

[Chicago526]

McCain's age doesn't bother me. Besides, his mother is still alive and kicking, and she's old enough to have voted for Lincoln!

Actually, his age may come to bother me in the future, depending on who his VP is going to be. Any VP can become President, of course, but the odds are slightly higher in McCain's case.

 

["Got Disney"]

We won't know until at least Pennsylvania, and possibly not then...unless Hillary loses two out of those three, in which case it's pretty much over.



Ok, this was just ridiculous. For one, the things you posted are flat wrong. Under Obama's plan, for example, anyone that wants coverage can get it. He simply doesn't force it on people that don't want it (generally young people that think they're invincible). Just because the Clinton smear machine puts something out there doesn't make it true.

But that's not even the point. You post 3 or 4 times in a row slamming Obama, then the very next post is complaining about Obama supporters slamming Clinton?

I have absolutely zero problem actually discussing the issues of the campaign on this thread, regardless of what the "title" of the thread is. The "No Debate" clause was just to keep out the neo-cons that would come in to start arguments. We are all (well, except John) liberals here, and I see no reason why we can't discuss these two candidates and which one of them is better suited to serve our party as its leader.

first of all they are correct and second I did that ...the first time ever mind you...to state a point to the ones that have been coming in hare acting like Obama is God and Hillary is not worthy of anything.

It was to state a point. That bashing is uncalled for and me coming in here and posting against Obama( who I like by the way) was a way to show the that you would not like me posting stuff like this either.

So I guess you did not read all my posts on why I did it because if you did you would have read ALL my posts prior.

You are also one that comes in here and says you will support Hillary but under your breath you also have nothing nice to say about her. You say it is fact...so it is okay to do it....I was showing you that there is stuff out there about Obama also ...but of course only your info you bring in is correct and no one else's.....

Anytime someone brings something in here you discredit it as Hillary supporters there for it is false....Maybe you need to take another look at her issues before you come in and say it is wrong

 

[Honu]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23155596]first of all they are correct[/QUOTE]

No, Robin, they aren't. If you spent some time on the Obama site you would know that. That type of communication is written with one purpose, to create bias. It omits and distorts information to make it's point.

 

[wvrevy]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23155596]first of all they are correct and second I did that ...the first time ever mind you...to state a point to the ones that have been coming in hare acting like Obama is God and Hillary is not worthy of anything.[/quote]

No, I'm sorry, but they were not:

"Universal coverage" means that anyone that wants coverage gets it, and Obama's plan does that.

Yes, the Superdelegates quote was accurate. So? Has Hillary come out against them and I wasn't aware of it?

But the one I most had an issue with is the third comment. YES, Hillary has objected to Obama's pledge to meet with the leaders of countries we have major problems with, taking the side of George Bush that we shouldn't meet with them unless they first do a, b, and c. The second point talks about the Iraq war, and Hillary's vote to approve the war is unquestioned, as is Obama's opposition from before he was even in the Senate. The Iran comparison is a wash, as they both have similar voting records there.

ETA: Oh yeah...forgot the next one. Obama has clearly stated that he voted for the energy bill because it was the biggest bump in renewable energy spending that this nation has ever seen. If you find it inconsistent to vote for it while not liking some of the boons to big oil that were also present, I'd have to guess that you were also one that couldn't understand the "I voted before it before I voted against it" comments from 2004.

I have seen nobody from the Obama side post anything like these attacks you decided to post, and believe me, it'd be pretty easy to do. The most I've seen is talk of Hillary's divisiveness when it comes to the country, and I've yet to see anyone actually dispute that with anything more than baseless denial. As a Democrat, I'm sorry, but yes, electability is something we have to be concerned with even in a year when the party should sweep to victory pretty easily.

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23155596]It was to state a point. That bashing is uncalled for and me coming in here and posting against Obama( who I like by the way) was a way to show the that you would not like me posting stuff like this either.

So I guess you did not read all my posts on why I did it because if you did you would have read ALL my posts prior.

You are also one that comes in here and says you will support Hillary but under your breath you also have nothing nice to say about her. You say it is fact...so it is okay to do it....I was showing you that there is stuff out there about Obama also ...but of course only your info you bring in is correct and no one else's.....

Anytime someone brings something in here you discredit it as Hillary supporters there for it is false....Maybe you need to take another look at her issues before you come in and say it is wrong[/QUOTE]

I don't discredit anything because of the source, unless it happens to be one or two particular posters on the other side of the aisle. I have also, as I just said, taken no shots at Hillary other than observing that she is a divisive candidate because of the unreasoning dislike people have for her. Am I a huge fan? I will readily admit, I'm not. Her personality grates on me a bit. Does that mean I wouldn't vote for her? Of course not.

If you would like me to actually do what you're accusing me of, I'd be more than happy to. I've refrained from doing so because I see no reason to tear down another Democratic candidate, especially when I might find myself supporting said candidate a few months from now. But this thread is what...70 pages now? Go back through and point out where I've said anything about Hillary other than what I just talked about. I think you'll find that rather hard to do.

 

["Got Disney"]

No, Robin, they aren't. If you spent some time on the Obama site you would know that. That type of communication is written with one purpose, to create bias. It omits and distorts information to make it's point.

So because I got this info from Hillarys(her campaine site) site it is wrong because on Obamas site it says different...that is a double standard and that is my point.....

If Obama says it it is correct than it must be...but if Hillary says it is correct .... it is just her bashing Obama...doble standard would you say not

I have herd him bash her many times.....I do watch him every chance I get and I do go to his web site and read...becuase if he gets the nod I will be voting for him and want to know who he is....

This is my point on this thread with some of you Obama supporters...it's Hillary is wrong no matter what and Obama is a perfect POLITICIAN....

 

[Fitswimmer]

No, Robin, they aren't. If you spent some time on the Obama site you would know that. That type of communication is written with one purpose, to create bias. It omits and distorts information to make it's point.

The most effective lies are hidden between two truths-and all politicians know that. They take a fact, couple it with a slight distortion and feed it to the troops to run with it.

 

["Got Disney"]

the media has said over and over that his plan will NOT cover everyone...and will leave over 50 million without ins. They even said it in the last Debate...asking him how he would covcer the people that refused to buy it..

He said that he will mandate up to age 25 and also that for those that did not purchase a plan and got sick could pay back premiums to get care or go to a free clinic...

so if you get sick and ow say $2500 in pack premiums for the year how many do you think will pay that $2500...I can name alot that I know that wont....

So he will offer it to all but not all will get it and want to pay. Face it there are many out there that would rather spend $50.00 aweek on cigeretts and beer and not get Health care...they will get it for free because they can just go to the clinic...

Nothing changes.....ecept that for many like me that can afford it will get what ever plan or keep what we have....for those that say they cand afford $50.00 a month( but could) wont....

 

[crcormier]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23156120]So because I got this info from Hillarys(her campaine site) site it is wrong because on Obamas site it says different...that is a double standard and that is my point.....

If Obama says it it is correct than it must be...but if Hillary says it is correct .... it is just her bashing Obama...doble standard would you say not

I have herd him bash her many times.....I do watch him every chance I get and I do go to his web site and read...becuase if he gets the nod I will be voting for him and want to know who he is....[/QUOTE]

I think the point is, Hillary is competing with Obama. So her web site's 'take' on Obama's stances are going to be biased to paint her in a more favorable light than he. And the same would be true of his website, I'm sure. They're both in it to win.

So if you want to debate about his campaign platform, it makes more sense to go to his website to get information about his platform to make arguments for or against it. Just as if you are debating about Hillary's platform one should go to her website and use her source material to discuss her ideas.

 

[Fitswimmer]

[quote="Got Disney";23156254]the media has said over and over that his plan will NOT cover everyone...and will leave over 50 million without ins. They even said it in the last Debate...asking him how he would covcer the people that refused to buy it..

He said that he will mandate up to age 25 and also that for those that did not purchase a plan and got sick could pay back premiums to get care or go to a free clinic...

so if you get sick and ow say $2500 in pack premiums for the year how many do you think will pay that $2500...I can name alot that I know that wont....

So he will offer it to all but not all will get it and want to pay. Face it there are many out there that would rather spend $50.00 aweek on cigeretts and beer and not get Health care...they will get it for free because they can just go to the clinic...

Nothing changes.....ecept that for many like me that can afford it will get what ever plan or keep what we have....for those that say they cand afford $50.00 a month( but could) wont....[/quote]

You're getting your info from the media? When I want info on Hillary, I do her the courtesy of going to her website-I don't listen to what CNN or NBC is saying.

Let's face reality for a minute-for both candidates the plans and ideas are simply that-plans and ideas. A LOT is going to change between campaign and actual governing. Hillary's plans will change and Obama's plans will change. As much as I like the ideas that both of them have placed on their websites, I'm certainly not going to think that they're going to be enacted as they stand. That's why I'm not sniping over details at this point.

 

[wvrevy]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23156254]the media has said over and over that his plan will NOT cover everyone...and will leave over 50 million without ins. They even said it in the last Debate...asking him how he would covcer the people that refused to buy it..

He said that he will mandate up to age 25 and also that for those that did not purchase a plan and got sick could pay back premiums to get care or go to a free clinic...

so if you get sick and ow say $2500 in pack premiums for the year how many do you think will pay that $2500...I can name alot that I know that wont....

So he will offer it to all but not all will get it and want to pay. Face it there are many out there that would rather spend $50.00 aweek on cigeretts and beer and not get Health care...they will get it for free because they can just go to the clinic...

Nothing changes.....ecept that for many like me that can afford it will get what ever plan or keep what we have....for those that say they cand afford $50.00 a month( but could) wont....[/QUOTE]

So, you support garnishing their wages if they refuse to buy in? Yeah...that'll go over really well.

I don't want government to force anything on anyone in terms of healthcare. I want the people that can't afford it to get a hand. I want those that can't get insured because of pre-existing conditions to have a way to get it and avoid catastrophic economic problems. I don't buy for a minute that there are 50 million people out there scamming the system, and I will again say that I define Universal Health Care as giving everybody the opportunity to have it, not forcing it down their throats.

For someone that supports a candidate that claims to know how to get things done in Washington, I'd think you would recognize the impossibility of getting congress to approve a plan to garnish people's wages if they don't buy health coverage. It simply will not happen. The road to true socialized medicine is one that will have to be taken a step at a time, not in giant leaps. It's completely unrealistic to think they can pass Hillary's health care plan.

...which isn't even the point. Barack's plan provides coverage for anyone that wants it, and makes provisions for those that can't afford it. That is Universal care.

 

[bimshire]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23156254]the media has said over and over that his plan will NOT cover everyone...and will leave over 50 million without ins. They even said it in the last Debate...asking him how he would covcer the people that refused to buy it..

He said that he will mandate up to age 25 and also that for those that did not purchase a plan and got sick could pay back premiums to get care or go to a free clinic...

so if you get sick and ow say $2500 in pack premiums for the year how many do you think will pay that $2500...I can name alot that I know that wont....

So he will offer it to all but not all will get it and want to pay. Face it there are many out there that would rather spend $50.00 aweek on cigeretts and beer and not get Health care...they will get it for free because they can just go to the clinic...

Nothing changes.....ecept that for many like me that can afford it will get what ever plan or keep what we have....for those that say they cand afford $50.00 a month( but could) wont....[/QUOTE]

Hillary is a socialist who plans on garnishing people's paycheck to pay premiums. Her plan will never get through Congress because people will not stand for this.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Hillary is a socialist who plans on garnishing people's paycheck to pay premiums. Her plan will never get through Congress because people will not stand for this.

I agree..It will never pass..Nor should any adult be forced to buy health insurance.

 

["Got Disney"]

So, you support garnishing their wages if they refuse to buy in? Yeah...that'll go over really well.

I don't want government to force anything on anyone in terms of health care. I want the people that can't afford it to get a hand. I want those that can't get insured because of pre-existing conditions to have a way to get it and avoid catastrophic economic problems. I don't buy for a minute that there are 50 million people out there scamming the system, and I will again say that I define Universal Health Care as giving everybody the opportunity to have it, not forcing it down their throats.

For someone that supports a candidate that claims to know how to get things done in Washington, I'd think you would recognize the impossibility of getting congress to approve a plan to garnish people's wages if they don't buy health coverage. It simply will not happen. The road to true socialized medicine is one that will have to be taken a step at a time, not in giant leaps. It's completely unrealistic to think they can pass Hillary's health care plan.

...which isn't even the point. Barack's plan provides coverage for anyone that wants it, and makes provisions for those that can't afford it. That is Universal care.

Well more have said the her plan will work and his not. And he will garnish wages if you are age 25 and under. Also the garnishing of wages is the same as taking a TAX out each week to pay for it. The GOV takes income tax out already it world be an added tax.

And Hillary's is also universal and covers who wants plans...there are many different ones that can be choose from just as Obamas...there plans are pretty much the same except for the Mandate. Also you say you don't believe that there are that many uninsured people will let me tell ya after working in a hospital for over 22 years....there are.

And it has been stated over and over ...not by Hillary supporters but by media and other senators that his plan will not work because there are to many holes in it.

However again that is not my point at to what i have said...I do not want to Debate about how bad or good the candidates are in this thread.....I LIKE BOTH!!!!!

I find some holes in Obama's issues and some in Hillary's...they are not perfect.....but the Obama supporters seem to think they are and is disturbing to me...JMO...

so I am done debating about who is better or worse. I came in here last night to make a point and have not and I repeat NOT have come in here before that to Debate about who is better....I may have stated a few times that I liked her policy better but never slammed him.

so you can stay in here and Debate about them all ya wont making Hillary the bad candidate....have fun....

 

[Laura]

As much as I like the ideas that both of them have placed on their websites, I'm certainly not going to think that they're going to be enacted as they stand.

That would certainly be wishful thinking.

 

[Laugh O. Grams]

Hillary is a socialist who plans on garnishing people's paycheck to pay premiums. Her plan will never get through Congress because people will not stand for this.

I would hardly call Hillary a socialist, but I do agree that it would be a hard sell. If Obama's plan has anything, it's definitely more palatable to those who now oppose any type of government rashioned health care program...

 

[chris1gill]

[QUOTE="Got Disney";23156254]the media has said over and over that his plan will NOT cover everyone...and will leave over 50 million without ins. They even said it in the last Debate...asking him how he would covcer the people that refused to buy it..

He said that he will mandate up to age 25 and also that for those that did not purchase a plan and got sick could pay back premiums to get care or go to a free clinic...

so if you get sick and ow say $2500 in pack premiums for the year how many do you think will pay that $2500...I can name alot that I know that wont....

So he will offer it to all but not all will get it and want to pay. Face it there are many out there that would rather spend $50.00 aweek on cigeretts and beer and not get Health care...they will get it for free because they can just go to the clinic...

Nothing changes.....ecept that for many like me that can afford it will get what ever plan or keep what we have....for those that say they cand afford $50.00 a month( but could) wont....[/QUOTE]

Everyone has pretty much covered everything EXCEPT, his plan does not leave out 50 million people. It has been claimed that 15 million will not want or sign up for the plan, and he has suggested ways to deal with those people.

People don't want government coming in, mandating their insurance and then garnishing their wages, plain and simple. So, Hillary's plan will become what Barack's plan is, and this should surprise us how?

 

[dcentity2000]

You know what really foxes me?

Conservatives saying that we liberals want failure in Iraq because we criticise it.

Nothing could be further from the truth!

We want the success that the Bush administration boasts about because it means less deaths and our brave soldiers coming home!

The difference is that we haven't fallen for the "everything is peachy" rubbish.



Rich::

 

[LuvDuke]

So, you support garnishing their wages if they refuse to buy in? Yeah...that'll go over really well.

I don't want government to force anything on anyone in terms of healthcare. I want the people that can't afford it to get a hand. I want those that can't get insured because of pre-existing conditions to have a way to get it and avoid catastrophic economic problems. I don't buy for a minute that there are 50 million people out there scamming the system, and I will again say that I define Universal Health Care as giving everybody the opportunity to have it, not forcing it down their throats.

For someone that supports a candidate that claims to know how to get things done in Washington, I'd think you would recognize the impossibility of getting congress to approve a plan to garnish people's wages if they don't buy health coverage. It simply will not happen. The road to true socialized medicine is one that will have to be taken a step at a time, not in giant leaps. It's completely unrealistic to think they can pass Hillary's health care plan.

...which isn't even the point. Barack's plan provides coverage for anyone that wants it, and makes provisions for those that can't afford it. That is Universal care.

So what does Barak Obama plan to do with those who don't want it, but show up at the hospital's doorstep when they need medical attention?

If everyone isn't in the system, you will end up with the system you have now. Those who do not buy into the system will not end up dead in the streets. They will get medical care if they need it. That will drive up the cost for those of us who are paying for it. As the cost goes up, more and more people leave the system. And we've chased our own tail again.

Btw, those with "socialized medicine" live longer, have fewer women die in childbirth, and fewer babies dying at birth. If that isn't a selling point, I dont' what is.