The Case Against College Education

[allison443]

I am sorry but I just disagree. My experience in college and now with most of our friends having college students, also living in a college town for many, many years is that the VAST majority of kids go to college to get an education, not to party. Yes, they drink in college, but again, for the vast majority of the kids it doesn't interfere with their education. It is something done on weekends. Not going to college is NOT going to change that behavior. I would also put out there that kids that don't go to college party MORE at the same age.

I agree, I can't believe people seem so shocked that kids drink in college. I went to college back in the early 80s when the drinking age was 18. We were allowed to buy kegs and rent taps from the cafeteria to have parties in our dorm. The student government used to sponsor theme parties which were $5 for all you could drink beer and mixed drinks-with students as bartenders, those drinks were strong. These things would never be allowed today.

Were there people that drank to excess then, yes. Did they turn out to be homeless alcoholics, no. They are now doctors, lawyers, successful in business, with families, community involvement, etc.

 

[LisaR]

Well considering that most of us (the older people) did not go to college or finish, I would have to say no.

I went to college off and on. In between, I worked in an office setting. Now I don't want you to think that I don't like college or degrees (I do) but I really really feel that I honed my work ethic and experience in those younger, formative years. I was up at 6:00 a.m. each morning, catching the bus, getting on the subway, working 8-10 hours a day and doing it all in reverse. AND having to be responsible and a very early age.

My DD is in college right now. It is her first year. She is not the most serious student but some of her friends are. The goal is to make class as late as possible, roll out of bed and into the classroom. Yeah, and there's the "fun." I personally don't think that the 4-year college experiences shapes any kind of work ethic for students. Of course, there are those very serious student (the ones who probably really belong there) that, of course, don't function this way.

I think if my DD had to go out at her age and "hump it" in an office (or a trade), she'd be forming these "reliability" skills much earlier. I do believe that college is kind of allowing her an extended adolescence and I see it in most of the college grads we hire.

I will say that many of them have very fine-tuned livers and they function very well at office happy hours. They do learn how to drink in school and hold their alchohol.

I know, I'm generalizing and I don't mean to insult anyone because I know from being on the college thread that there are just as many serious students as there are non-serious.

I just still firmly believe that for some fields it is so ridiculous to require the degree. I have over 2 years of college under my belt and I still feel that way.

I don't disagree with you. I think college has changed........or maybe the college student has changed.

I do get what you are saying and I am very leery of college life today. There was a time when I strongly supported a kid graduating HS and heading off for life in a dorm. We have encouraged our kids to try out community college first. If that works out, maybe commute for their last two years. The free time they would spend partying could be spent working instead. If they want, they could always go away for grad school. I can't say what our kids will end up doing but I won't pay a penny for them to go party. I don't think that is some rite of passage - at least not on my dime.

I had a great college experience. I managed to get a degree in 4 years without failing a single class, hold a decent job the entire time and do my fair share of partying. I learned a great deal and I think it helped me mature in some areas. Since everyone and their brother goes off to college now, it certainly seems to be an extension of high school instead of a higher level into their next phase of life.

 

[klacey1]

I agree with the article. DBF and I were talking the other day-- if EVERYONE is going on to a 4-year university, our society might be getting smarter...but will we have plumbers, garbage men, etc. that are JUST AS IMPORTANT to our society as the "educated???"

 

[DISdreamin']

He recently told her he wanted to go to community college to "get it together," get a good gpa and be able to transfer to a college he really wants to attend, not these few colleges he got accepted into which he doesn't want to go to. Her response "you are going away, not staying here to go to community college." WHO SAYS THAT?

Wow. Just wow.

Anyways, if you can drop a hint to the son, there ARE community colleges with dorms so there is the opportunity to satisfy both of them. Hopefully he can find a good one and start there. It sounds like he is taking a real look at his situation, and CC may really help him get started (again) on the right foot.

 

[LoraJ]

Would you have gotten that job had you not gone to the trade school though?

Who knows where I would be. I may have gone back and suffered through school. But my firends who attended the state college with me all have jobs they hate and in careers they did not intend on being in. I had a desire to work in the industry that I am in and did what I could to get into it. I have a useless certificate from a school that no longer exists. I still do not have a degree.

 

[castleview]

If you want to see "extended adolescence" run amok, go to a good law school and hang out with the kids who went straight through from college to law school. It can get pretty intense.

I posted earlier that I had friends in college who flat out said (while laughing) that they were going to law school because they didn't feel like finding a job. I'm trying to imagine what my parents would say if I tried that!

Now that I think about it, isn't the military one of the best places for job aptitude screening?

 

[FireDancer]

I think that's a problem in this whole country-and not just with girls. Being intelligent and actually showing it will get you branded an "elitist", a "nerd" a "geek" or a "intellectual snob" pretty fast. To be popular you have to be a "regular person" and it seems that the definition of a "regular person" is not too bright.

If you've ever seen the movie "Idiotocracy" you know where we're headed if we don't change that perception.

This isn't necessarily true. The valedictorian and salutatorian in my high school were two of the most popular kid. One was the captain of almost every sports team we had other then football and the other was prom queen.

I have always been a geek and a nerd, I am in computers, but I was never unpopular. It comes down to how you value yourself. If you are who you are and don't care what other people think you project confidence.

 

[Christine]

I have a dear friend who works has worked in a job for almost 20 years. He is very smart, but never finished college. Unfortunately, he has advanced as far as he can without a degree. He watches people who degrees in things like ART or DRAMA move above him after about 5 years because the higher jobs require a college degree.

I have to question this employer. What kind of employer would not advance someone with 20 years experience over a person with 5 years experience with an ART or DRAMA degree. That just doesn't make sense. That ART or DRAMA degree can't be contributing anything. If it is just to "check the box" then this is where the whole workplace has gone wrong, IMO. His 20 years experience should trump those people. Now if he was up against someone with 15 years experience and a degree, that's different. At his level in the workplace, the selection should be made on who can do the job better, not the piece of paper.

 

[Quiksilvr]

I posted earlier that I had friends in college who flat out said (while laughing) that they were going to law school because they didn't feel like finding a job. I'm trying to imagine what my parents would say if I tried that!

Now that I think about it, isn't the military one of the best places for job aptitude screening?

I'll put it this way. Law school can be way more fun than college for several reasons:

1. Banks are always willing to loan money to aspiring lawyers (good credit risk or no)

2. Everyone is over 21.

3. You only really have to work hard academically for the three weeks or so before finals. Finals are all cumulative essays. There is no "homework" during the semester (at least at the good schools).

4. It gives smart dorky kids a chance to do over high school. The classes are small (generally 200-300 students in your class year). You're there for three years. You don't get into a good school without being smart. Athletic ability means almost nothing (except during softball and intramural season).

It's really kind of funny how much like high school it was. I mean, we even had prom. It was prom where everyone got wasted and couldn't remember it the next day, but nonetheless...

Of course, it costs like $100,000 for the experience, but when banks are willing to lend you the money, a lot of people jump at the opportunity.

 

[bettymae1121]

This isn't necessarily true. The valedictorian and salutatorian in my high school were two of the most popular kid. One was the captain of almost every sports team we had other then football and the other was prom queen.

I have always been a geek and a nerd, I am in computers, but I was never unpopular. It comes down to how you value yourself. If you are who you are and don't care what other people think you project confidence.

Ditto, at my high school all the most popular kids pulled really high GPA's. Part of that was good grades were required for things like cheerleading and sports, but mostly it was that being smart and having good grades wasn't a "bad thing". A good friend of mine has a very much younger sister that graduated from the same HS a few years ago, and from what I can tell it hasn't changed since I was there 15 years ago. I think it REALLY depends on the culture of the HS and/or town in question.

 

[3prettyprincesses]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1967580,00.html

Thoughts? Mine: There are many professions that don't require a degree and many kids not suited for traditional college. Education for the sake of education is fine - actually, it's good - but to take on that much debt is ridiculous. I would hope this is a wakeup call for universities to get their acts together and stop bilking students for all they can get. Just my opinion.

What an interesting thread! I tend to agree with this too. I went away to college, worked my butt off and ended up in a field that I didn't even major in. So, I graduated college, worked somewhere completely unrelated to my degree and was strapped with student loans for years afterward. Great plan, not so much! But my parents told me that I HAVE to go to college, period. There wasn't any other choice and they encouraged me to go away. Basically they felt they'd had me around long enough!

Now my youngest brother (he's 15 years younger) is absolutely miserable in college but is doing it to please my Dad. He's taking out loans, working like crazy and is so unhappy. Whenever I talk with him, he just *sighs* because he isn't doing what he wants to do.

My DH graduated from college and has been working in computers for 13 years. The kicker...his degree was in Biblical Studies, not computers!

I think you all are hitting on very valid points. Parents have been drilled that their kids NEED to go to college or else they'll be jobless. DH and I have already talked about how we will not push our girls into college. However, if they want to go, then we'll help them out of course. But we'll have them consider our state schools first. Who wants to pay $30,000 a year when you can pay $4,000 instead? College is expensive and DH and I paid off all of our student loans only 5 years ago. If our girls would rather pursue a trade rather than a college education, that is fine with us.

 

[PeterPan09]

Ditto, at my high school all the most popular kids pulled really high GPA's. Part of that was good grades were required for things like cheerleading and sports, but mostly it was that being smart and having good grades wasn't a "bad thing". A good friend of mine has a very much younger sister that graduated from the same HS a few years ago, and from what I can tell it hasn't changed since I was there 15 years ago. I think it REALLY depends on the culture of the HS and/or town in question.

I wasn't really thinking about individual school cultures-but more of the overall societal culture. How are the "smart" people portrayed in the media? What kind of messages are we sending through the culture about being "too smart"?

If you were a stranger to our country, and were viewing everything through the lens of popular media, would you think that we valued smart people?

 

[The Mystery Machine]

However, if they want to go, then we'll help them out of course. But we'll have them consider our state schools first. Who wants to pay $30,000 a year when you can pay $4,000 instead? College is expensive and DH and I paid off all of our student loans only 5 years ago. If our girls would rather pursue a trade rather than a college education, that is fine with us.

A state school for 4000? Good Luck with that.

Now you might find a smaller college that is cheaper, but 4000? That is more community college. Maybe that is what you meant?

 

[LisaR]

I think you all are hitting on very valid points. Parents have been drilled that their kids NEED to go to college or else they'll be jobless. DH and I have already talked about how we will not push our girls into college. However, if they want to go, then we'll help them out of course. But we'll have them consider our state schools first. Who wants to pay $30,000 a year when you can pay $4,000 instead? College is expensive and DH and I paid off all of our student loans only 5 years ago. If our girls would rather pursue a trade rather than a college education, that is fine with us.

While there are state colleges that are around $4,000 a year (we have them in FL), that price is tuition only. A state college in FL is $30,000 with room and board. Unless they live close enough to commute, $4000 won't cut it. I was so excited when we moved here because they have the Bright Future Scholarship that pays for 4 years of school. It turns out it only covers tuition. I would like to offer to pay the tuition and they pay the rest. The $4000 is the easy part. It is the other $26,000 per year that is the problem.

EDITED: I take it back! I just rechecked since it has been awhile since I have looked. A full year with room and board can be had for $18,000. Much better than $30,000.

 

[FireDancer]

I wasn't really thinking about individual school cultures-but more of the overall societal culture. How are the "smart" people portrayed in the media? What kind of messages are we sending through the culture about being "too smart"?

If you were a stranger to our country, and were viewing everything through the lens of popular media, would you think that we valued smart people?

That is putting way too much weight on how you allow the "media standard" to make you change who you are. This is true of the "everybody has to be fit and thin" ideal and for the "smart people are too smart" idea.

If you just be yourself and don't compare yourself to the tabloids you will live a much happier life free of self-esteem issues. Self-esteem and self-image come from one and only one source, you.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

While there are state colleges that are around $4,000 a year (we have them in FL), that price is tuition only. A state college in FL is $30,000 with room and board. Unless they live close enough to commute, $4000 won't cut it. I was so excited when we moved here because they have the Bright Future Scholarship that pays for 4 years of school. It turns out it only covers tuition. I would like to offer to pay the tuition and they pay the rest. The $4000 is the easy part. It is the other $26,000 per year that is the problem.

The cheapest we can find is about 6000ish/yr and that is without room and board which drives it up to about 12,000ish/yr.

The state school my dd is in now is 8500/yr., just for tution. It is about 21,000/yr. with room/board. Which is why we are going to be having a sitdown this weekend to discuss options for next yr. There are cheaper options out there.

If she is not "set" on a degree it does not make sense to take out loans at a more expensive college.

You do have to keep it in perspective that is for sure.

 

[punkin]

Hey, lets talk about my local state school: University of Maryland: Last year in-state tuition was $8,053. Then you add in room at $5,549 and board at $3,826. Lets not forget books: $1,025 and $3,024 for "personal supplies" for a grand total of $21,477.

This is all off their web site. Of course everything will probably go up this year. Good Luck finding a school for $4K.

 

[LisaR]

The cheapest we can find is about 6000ish/yr and that is without room and board which drives it up to about 12,000ish/yr.

The state school my dd is in now is 8500/yr., just for tution. It is about 21,000/yr. with room/board. Which is why we are going to be having a sitdown this weekend to discuss options for next yr. There are cheaper options out there.

If she is not "set" on a degree it does not make sense to take out loans at a more expensive college.

You do have to keep it in perspective that is for sure.

I just edited my post. I was wrong. It is cheaper than I remember in FL. Tuition plus room and board will run around $18,000. Much better than $30,000 but still nothing to sneeze at. The problem as I hear it is that it is very hard to get into the state schools around here. Not sure how true that is. Time will tell.

 

[Christine]

Hey, lets talk about my local state school: University of Maryland: Last year in-state tuition was $8,053. Then you add in room at $5,549 and board at $3,826. Lets not forget books: $1,025 and $3,024 for "personal supplies" for a grand total of $21,477.

This is all off their web site. Of course everything will probably go up this year. Good Luck finding a school for $4K.

Maryland colleges have always been very expensive. I don't think the state kicks in much toward tuition.

My DD attends WVU and their tuition rate is about $5600. I think most Virginia schools are in the $6,000 range (some $7000).

 

[punkin]

Maryland colleges have always been very expensive. I don't think the state kicks in much toward tuition.

My DD attends WVU and their tuition rate is about $5600. I think most Virginia schools are in the $6,000 range (some $7000).

That's just tuition. Room and board is high there too. I have to check the websites, but...

I will say that NY state schools are also great bargains even out of state. It would cost me almost the same to send D to a NY school out of state as in state in Maryland.