The Case Against College Education

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I have been in agreement with this thought pattern for a long time. The notion that anyone than can go to college should go to college is just silly...

Agreed....


That being said, I am planning for my kids to go to college--but if someone ups and decides they don't and has an alternative plan for a career, I'd be willing to accept it.

DH on the other hand....may not be so accepting.

And the whole connection/networking...

IF one is going into 6 figure debt for a career that can't hope for more than $30K/year...priorities are royally screwed up.

And yes--it does happen. I hear it on a financial talk show all.the.time. It's crazy.

A loan is not the same as financial aid IMHO. While it makes it possibel for you to go to college--if you still owe the money when you are done, I certainly hoped you planned for a career commensurate with the debt load.

 

[PatsGirl]

A good work ethic, energy, enthusiasm, and willingness to do what needs to be done are more important than a degree IMHO. Before I get flamed, I hold two degrees but I work in a job that while certainly uses the skills I learned earning those degrees, doesn't require a college education. I traded location and low-stress for money and prestige

My point is that some kids/young adults today have college degrees but don't have the motivation to succeed. Just because you go to school for 4 years doesn't entitle you to that cushy job I know many people in the trades that make substantial money without higher education but they are hard workers who are trusted by the community.

 

[eliza61]

I do agree with the article in that it's correct when they say not all kids are cut out for college but..... the fact remains that college educated people make waaay more over the course of their working life than non-degreed people. I think it's almost 30% more. Plus, face it a college degree opens up a lot more opportunities than not having one.

Those 2 factors are enough for me to encourage (almost demand) that my kids go to college.

 

[wilderness01]

I agree with the article as well.

My kids will all go to college, but they do quite well in school, get good grades and test well. We have made school a priority over any activity they have done/are doing. I know plenty of people that have their kids heavily involved in a sport even though their kid is flunking a class or getting a bad grade. They don't have their child tutored because the child just doesn't have the time with all their activities. I think to myself "wow, your priorities are really screwed up" but it's not my kid, so I just basically listen.

I also have a friend who has lied about how well her child has done throughout his school career, and now that it is coming time for college, he can only get in a very few select state schools because his gpa is terrible and his ACT/SAT scores were low. He got rejected from a few state schools that have very low admission standards and she was shocked because she thought he was a show in because they could pay the tuition. She traded the glory of her child being a "star" quarterback and not holding him back a year in school, even though he was failing classes freshman year in hs, not doing well in the rest of his classes, because of image. Truly sad and now this poor kid is paying the price with getting rejected from college after college after college.

He recently told her he wanted to go to community college to "get it together," get a good gpa and be able to transfer to a college he really wants to attend, not these few colleges he got accepted into which he doesn't want to go to. Her response "you are going away, not staying here to go to community college." WHO SAYS THAT? It is all about image and her house of cards is starting to fall. She will send him away even though he doesn't belong away academically. I feel sorry for him. He is showing maturity for wanting to stay home and telling her he isn't ready. She just won't listen because it doesn't look good. I just shake my head and think "poor kid, you want him to be something he isn't and in the long run, you are going to be very sorry for not listening to him or taking his best interests to heart." Shame on her.

 

[golfgal]

That is my point exactly. I am not a believer in the "going away" experience necessarily (even though my DD is about to do just that) because a lot of times it just turns into a 4 year drink-fest. That is not my idea of education. However, a reasonably priced education is there for anyone who wants one.

Do you really think that going away to college is a 4 year drink fest? Yes, there are SOME kids that do that but the vast majority of kids don't.

I fully believe in the going away aspect of college. It is a way for kids to FINALLY have to make decisions on their own but still have a safety net of the school and parents to fall back on, ESPECIALLY with the dramatic rise in helicopter parenting!

Obviously you go to college for the academics but there is a LOT more to be learned living on campus then what you get in books that is a very valuable part of growing up that you can NOT get living at home, period.

ITA. My last company wouldn't even look at you if you didn't have a college degree and frankly, there was no reason why a HS graduate couldn't do many of the jobs we had.

I went away to school-primiarly because I was an only child and felt I really needed to get away from Mom and Dad for a while. It was good for me, I met some wonderful people and had great experiences-but I do not see why everyone should be expected to do it.

It is probably true that a high school student could do your job but part of what employers look for with college graduates is their responsibility level. Someone that went to college, did well and GRADUATES shows that they can start something and finish something. Since high school is compulsory, you don't have that same benchmark with a high school graduate.

I've accepted that all schools are party schools if you wish them to be.

Very true.

Unless they are going to cut my tuition, there is no way an IVY is going to work with you or for you. I know Harvard tuition is free for those who have a low income but for the rest of the students, unless you are rich, you will be in hock until you die. The best thing you can do is pick a lucrative career to pay off that loan. I would NEVER send my child to an IVY (if they were accepted). If she was good enough to get into an IVY, I'd send her to a good state school on a FREE ride.

You do realize that your child is MORE likely to get a free ride from a private school then a state school, right??? You do realize that private school endowments are significantly larger then state schools so there is more money to give, right? Also, for the federal financial aid, if the school you are attending costs more, you qualify for more aid. The award is based on how much your family can contribute so if you can contribute $10,000 and the school costs $10,000, no aid, if the school costs $40,000, you qualify for $30,000 in aid.

Is a 4 YEAR college right for everyone, NO. Is some kind of post-secondary education right for everyone, YES. We have to really define what "going to college" means. There are plenty of kids that are not right for a 4 year college and are better suited for a community college, vo-tech or the military. The point isn't so much WHERE you go but THAT you go.

As for colleges costing "so much more" these days, proportionally they don't cost any more then they did when I graduated. When I was in college, a year's tuition was slightly less then was the average first year salary with someone with a BA/BS could expect right out of college--for a PRIVATE college-state schools were about half of that. Today, a year's tuition is slightly less then what someone graduating with a BA/BS can expect to make right out of college with state schools being about half of that. Yes, the number is bigger, but so are the salaries.

 

[CapeMayMommy]

I do agree with the article in that it's correct when they say not all kids are cut out for college but..... the fact remains that college educated people make waaay more over the course of their working life than non-degreed people. I think it's almost 30% more. Plus, face it a college degree opens up a lot more opportunities than not having one.

Those 2 factors are enough for me to encourage (almost demand) that my kids go to college.

Women really have to attend college and get a degree---unless a girl wants to be a master plumber, she'll end up low paid. Guarenteed.

In my community, women without degrees work as : nurses aides, preschool teachers, and retail sales people.

It's a hard way to pay the rent. I tell my six year old daughter that everyday.

By the way, my community only requires high school graduation and police academy training for new officers. While there are some females on the force, the vast majority are males. They start at 48 K and a seasoned officer can pull in close to 6 figures.

Nursing, teaching, therapists, etc. ---all careers dominated by women--- pay comparable rate as a police officer and require a degree.

Has anyone else noticed that women can't make a decent salary without a degree but men can?

 

[punkin]

Do you really think that going away to college is a 4 year drink fest? Yes, there are SOME kids that do that but the vast majority of kids don't.

No, I do not think that the majority of kids go to college mainly to party. I do believe that there is a sizable portion who do.

 

[golfgal]

No, I do not think that the majority of kids go to college mainly to party. I do believe that there is a sizable portion who do.

Is there a sizable portion of college students that drink, YES-especially since that is a legal activity for about 1/2 of all college students, do they GO to college to PARTY-NO, I would say that number is very, very, very small.

 

[DawnM]

I guess I am a snob right there with you, but I agree!

DH and I agree that we will pay for our kids to go to the local public 4 year school and live at home. Anything beyond that, they can pay the difference.

Now, I will also say that the local school is good for 90% of the educational choices out there, but if my kids were to go into a field that really needed a particular college, I would find a way to help as I could, but so far, I am thinking the local 4 year school will be enough for undergrad.

Dawn

I am a big believer in higher education for its own sake, I guess that makes me an "educational snob". However, I do not believe that taking out enormous student loans is good for anybody. There are other ways to get a good education. There are community colleges, state universities, libraries...

 

[DawnM]

DH just told me that they are having meetings at work regarding new recruits and one of the things talked about was the attitude of entitlement the recent grad school grads have compared to 15-20 years ago when recent grads were just thankful to get a job and excited about finally having a "career!"

The questions the recruits ask in interviews has to do more with "what will you do for ME?" rather than, "What I can I bring to the job."

It is crazy.

Dawn

A good work ethic, energy, enthusiasm, and willingness to do what needs to be done are more important than a degree IMHO. Before I get flamed, I hold two degrees but I work in a job that while certainly uses the skills I learned earning those degrees, doesn't require a college education. I traded location and low-stress for money and prestige

My point is that some kids/young adults today have college degrees but don't have the motivation to succeed. Just because you go to school for 4 years doesn't entitle you to that cushy job I know many people in the trades that make substantial money without higher education but they are hard workers who are trusted by the community.

 

[Christine]

Has anyone else noticed that women can't make a decent salary without a degree but men can?

I have said this on a few other threads. My DD is one who probably doesn't belong in college. But yeah, she's not going to be a master plumber or electrician (like her dad). It's just not "her."

Someone else did mention the paralegal field, but my guess is that if you don't do well in school, training for a paralegal isn't going to be that much easier.

 

[punkin]

Is there a sizable portion of college students that drink, YES-especially since that is a legal activity for about 1/2 of all college students, do they GO to college to PARTY-NO, I would say that number is very, very, very small.

I disagree. Take a look at the 2010 college thread and agnes!'s post (you know the one I mean). I don't think it's an isolated occurrence. That is how many college students act. What their stated goals for college are and what they wind up actually doing are two different things. I think many of them (for whatever reason) wind up wasting (and wasted) their entire college career.

 

[golfgal]

DH just told me that they are having meetings at work regarding new recruits and one of the things talked about was the attitude of entitlement the recent grad school grads have compared to 15-20 years ago when recent grads were just thankful to get a job and excited about finally having a "career!"

The questions the recruits ask in interviews has to do more with "what will you do for ME?" rather than, "What I can I bring to the job."

It is crazy.

Dawn

That about says it all. It starts when they are 4 and EVERYONE gets a trophy in soccer because they were there and only gets worse from there...

 

[punkin]

I have said this on a few other threads. My DD is one who probably doesn't belong in college. But yeah, she's not going to be a master plumber or electrician (like her dad). It's just not "her."

Someone else did mention the paralegal field, but my guess is that if you don't do well in school, training for a paralegal isn't going to be that much easier.

Has anybody read about that new report about college graduate women marrying "beneath" them in terms of education? Well, why not? A master plumber or electrician makes a very nice living (and is handy around the house). A woman without a college degree has much less opportunity (nowadays) to make a good living.

 

[Christine]

Has anybody read about that new report about college graduate women marrying "beneath" them in terms of education? Well, why not? A master plumber or electrician makes a very nice living (and is handy around the house). A woman without a college degree has much less opportunity (nowadays) to make a good living.

Hey the trades are really the way to go, I think! My husband does VERY well as an electrician. It did take him 5 years of apprenticeship schooling though so it's not like he just walked on the job and started.

They aren't too handy around the house though--it typical fashion, I'm married to an electrican and I've got several burnt out lightbulbs in the house and well as a bathroom light fixture that needs changing. But do you think I could get him to do it?

 

[punkin]

Hey the trades are really the way to go, I think! My husband does VERY well as an electrician. It did take him 5 years of apprenticeship schooling though so it's not like he just walked on the job and started.

They aren't too handy around the house though--it typical fashion, I'm married to an electrican and I've got several burnt out lightbulbs in the house and well as a bathroom light fixture that needs changing. But do you think I could get him to do it?

The shoemaker's kids go barefoot.

 

[golfgal]

I disagree. Take a look at the 2010 college thread and agnes!'s post (you know the one I mean). I don't think it's an isolated occurrence. That is how many college students act. What their stated goals for college are and what they wind up actually doing are two different things. I think many of them (for whatever reason) wind up wasting (and wasted) their entire college career.

I am sorry but I just disagree. My experience in college and now with most of our friends having college students, also living in a college town for many, many years is that the VAST majority of kids go to college to get an education, not to party. Yes, they drink in college, but again, for the vast majority of the kids it doesn't interfere with their education. It is something done on weekends. Not going to college is NOT going to change that behavior. I would also put out there that kids that don't go to college party MORE at the same age.

The 40% drop out rate listed in that article is REALLY misleading too. It shows people that don't complete a degree in less then 6 years is considered a "not graduating". Well, if you take a large university, say the University of Minnesota, more then 1/2 of their students are non-traditional, meaning they didn't start college right after high school. Many are adults with full time jobs that have gone back to school to get a degree but they can only do that part time and maybe it takes them 7 years-they are considered a "drop out". Look at the REAL statistics from most colleges that have the majority of their students as "traditional" college students and that number is much different.

 

[perdidobay]

DH just told me that they are having meetings at work regarding new recruits and one of the things talked about was the attitude of entitlement the recent grad school grads have compared to 15-20 years ago when recent grads were just thankful to get a job and excited about finally having a "career!"

The questions the recruits ask in interviews has to do more with "what will you do for ME?" rather than, "What I can I bring to the job."

It is crazy.

Dawn

This is my DH's biggest gripe. He would much rather hire the guy who went to community college while he worked days than the 23 yearold who attended a "prestige" college.
Mr Prestige College thinks the buisness world owes him a starting salary equal to the salary my DH makes after 34 years at the job.
He says Mr Community College will work circles around the later without the entitlement mentality.

But as to the point of the post - I agree, not everyone needs a college education to make their life complete, or for their chosen career.

The smartest people are the ones who know that learning is not limited to what you learned in school.

 

[RitaZ.]

DH just told me that they are having meetings at work regarding new recruits and one of the things talked about was the attitude of entitlement the recent grad school grads have compared to 15-20 years ago when recent grads were just thankful to get a job and excited about finally having a "career!"

The questions the recruits ask in interviews has to do more with "what will you do for ME?" rather than, "What I can I bring to the job."

It is crazy.

Dawn

I believe that's a result of the constant bargaining that many parents engage in with their children. They've learned to negotiate/bargain their way out of unpleasant situations by expecting and receiving a reward. So, now as adults, they expect their bosses and others to do the same. They want to know 'what's in it for them' before they make a commitment.

 

[golfgal]

I believe that's a result of the constant bargaining that many parents engage in with their children. They've learned to negotiate/bargain their way out of unpleasant situations by expecting and receiving a reward. So, now as adults, they expect their bosses and others to do the same. They want to know 'what's in it for them' before they make a commitment.