The Case Against College Education

[Arielle22]

I have an associates degree while DH has an IT certificate. Both were obtained after we started our family.

Our expectations are both dd go to college. They were young while we attended school so they don't remember the shuffling around for me to get to class. I would drive to the college (my day off and home with dds) and meet DH there. He would park and get in my car to take dds home while I went to class. After class I would pick up my sister (who lived with us and we shared the 2 cars) at work and finally get home in time to get into bed.

I don't want my dds to have to go through what we went through.

I have explained that what college is up to them but they need to consider how much the school cost compared to the career they are choosing.

I am also an HR Mgr and place the ads for positions. Our lower positions do not require degrees. One position will earn a decent wage but the others just above minimum wage.

Our higher positions all require degrees. Certain positions require specific degrees while others need a more general degree. The company feels a candidate with a degree is more likely to have basic knowledge that we require. This basic knowledge can be as simple as how to use various microsoft programs to business etiquette and ethics.

As for college educated making more money, my sister got a job after college which paid her what I was making at the time (and I had been in the workforce 15 years at the time).

However I don't believe college is for everyone. But I do think most position which pay decent wages (enough to support a family and save some money) require some sort of post high school education (certificates or specialized schooling for a trade).

 

[Christine]

However I don't believe college is for everyone. But I do think most position which pay decent wages (enough to support a family and save some money) require some sort of post high school education (certificates or specialized schooling for a trade).

There is no doubt that the employers are requiring those degrees but do you REALLY believe that all jobs need them. I stated upthread that my job, in no way, requires a degree. There is NOTHING that you can learn in college that will help you to do this job. This does not mean I am devaluing the college experience or the further enrichment. That is never a "wrong" thing to do. But I still think it is SILLY that many white collar "desk" jobs want someone who has gone through the degree process.

I am not even talking about fields that require specialized experience and certfications such as accountants, teachers, etc...but, well, a job like mine. Without getting into too many specifics, I work for the government but was a contractor for the government for over 20 years. I work in a field that has a very narrow skill set but must be learned on the job. There is no other way to get it but to be in the job. Let me tell you, there are hundreds of jobs like this at my agency. All we really need is a great work ethic and organization. It makes me sad to think that for, whatever reason, if a person couldn't get to college that they would be disqualified.

I'm think the employers need to really re-think what they need for a specific job instead of putting this blanket requirement on everything now.

 

[LoraJ]

I realized when I graduated High School I didn't want to go to college right away. So I went to work at the company I work at now. Now, 12 years later, I've been promoted 4 or 5 times, changed career paths and now handle a $55 million budget. During the course of my career I made it a point to take classes to hone skills and did a lot of self study. This method worked much better for me then if I had gone away.

More recently I decided what my next career jump will be, and I felt I really needed to get some more education to make it as smooth as possible, and I started to go to school part time. I have since completed over 30 credit hours and am on my way to get a degree centered around International Business. I also have incurred no really expenses related to my education between my company's reimbursement policy and the tax credits on the balance.

Does this method work for everyone, absolutely not, some people need the more formal environment to achieve what I have, they do not have the focus or desire to attempt it on their own.

Side note, I sit on two boards, and the biggest one I sit on helps underprivledged students who have the desire to go to college, make it a reality, not just financially (there is a lot of financial options out there if you know where to look) but emotionally, physically, etc. Sometimes I struggle with the direction that some members want to take the organization on a larger scale, with everyone going to college, but fortunately, the majority and those who have the most policy influence realize its not something that should ever be forced on a student, it should be something they desire and need to be successful.

My story is kind of the same. I went to college for 3 semesters and just hated it. Could be because I commuted to a local state school instead of living on campus. I got bored with school and ended up moving to NYC where I went to a trade school for television broadcasting. They had a job placement program and got me a job at a TV studio and I worked my way up from there.

I never needed a degree in my career, just experience, but with the changing attitudes about people like me without a degree, I have decided to go back to school and I have been enjoying it. I have the patience and desire to learn now. And my employer is paying for it.

 

[bettymae1121]

Things today aren't that different than they were 15 years ago when I graduated HS, I remember hearing the same song-and-dance about how HS degrees were only good for fliping burgers.

I was one of those that wasn't ready for college after HS. Not because I wasn't smart or because I didn't get a good education in HS (I went to a damn fine HS), but because I just wasn't ready to be THAT much on my own at that age, and I didn't know what I wanted to be when I grew up! So I took a few classes at community college and lived at home, the classes were more to appease my parents than any real interest of mine. I took a course in Travel (no college credit for the class) when I was 20 and loved it, and I had a knack for it. I spent 2 years in a travel call center making $10.25 an hour (that was nothing to sneeze at in '97) and then found my current job. My starting salary was $31,000 a year (this was in '99). At 22, I was making more money then any of my friends who had just graduated college. Almost 11 years and a lot of signifigant pay raises later, I still make more than many of my friends with degrees, even the friends that DID go to the fancy private and top tier public universities.

Now, I do wish to get a degree someday, but because I love learning, not because I need to further my career and/or make more money (not that I would say no to more money! ).

DH is just like me. No interst in college, went to work at 16 and found he loved the industry. He also makes more money than many people with 4 year degrees (and even some with masters degrees).

Now, we don't have kids yet...but we will encourage them to go to college and/or vocation school. It's possible to do what DH and I did, but obviously your options are more limited, and formal education of some sort can open up more doors for you. But if they don't want to go (not just being lazy but just REALLY don't want to or aren't ready to), then it's not the end of the world. We will be supportive of them no matter what.

 

[sbell111]

I hire a lot of people. If I am comparing two candidates who both gave great interviews and have similar experience, but one has a college education and teh other doesn't, I'm going to hire the college grad every single time regardless of whether the job requires any college. I'll do this for two reasons. First, a college grad has generally proven that he/she can be taught. Second, when it is time to fill higher level jobs, I have an internal candidate pool who is qualified for the positions. Having an awesome employee who has no college education does me no good if the job that I'm filling requires one.

 

[PeterPan09]

I believe that's a result of the constant bargaining that many parents engage in with their children. They've learned to negotiate/bargain their way out of unpleasant situations by expecting and receiving a reward. So, now as adults, they expect their bosses and others to do the same. They want to know 'what's in it for them' before they make a commitment.

The other thing I saw working at my last job was the employees that we got directly out of college seemed to expect confetti to fall from the sky every time they showed up to work on time. They expected constant praise and rewards for just doing what they were hired to do. The idea that the paycheck and not getting fired was the reward wasn't quite enough for them.

To me, that's the result of being told for 20 years that everything they did was the most wonderful thing anyone ever did ever, and for getting trophies for just showing up.

 

[golfgal]

My story is kind of the same. I went to college for 3 semesters and just hated it. Could be because I commuted to a local state school instead of living on campus. I got bored with school and ended up moving to NYC where I went to a trade school for television broadcasting. They had a job placement program and got me a job at a TV studio and I worked my way up from there.

I never needed a degree in my career, just experience, but with the changing attitudes about people like me without a degree, I have decided to go back to school and I have been enjoying it. I have the patience and desire to learn now. And my employer is paying for it.

Would you have gotten that job had you not gone to the trade school though?

 

[Gabes_mommy]

My husband makes 3xs what I do and I have my master's degree and DH just has a high school diploma.

College is not for everyone. It depends what you want to do as some careers require it.

I teach at a community college and we have several "AS" programs that train students to enter certain well-paying fields (mostly medical) after completing a 2-3 year program. Radiography and Sonography are examples of these. I think these are a great option for a lot of people.

 

[eliza61]

Women really have to attend college and get a degree---unless a girl wants to be a master plumber, she'll end up low paid. Guarenteed.

In my community, women without degrees work as : nurses aides, preschool teachers, and retail sales people.

It's a hard way to pay the rent. I tell my six year old daughter that everyday.

By the way, my community only requires high school graduation and police academy training for new officers. While there are some females on the force, the vast majority are males. They start at 48 K and a seasoned officer can pull in close to 6 figures.

Nursing, teaching, therapists, etc. ---all careers dominated by women--- pay comparable rate as a police officer and require a degree.

Has anyone else noticed that women can't make a decent salary without a degree but men can?

My community is the same. It does suck and to top that off, I work with young girls who are never encouraged to go to college. I've said it before when young girls are in the 7th grade nationally they beat the socks off of young boys in math and science but for some reason when they get to 10th grade they "dumb" down. They get the message to be popular you have to be stupid. I actually had 1 mother tell me that she was hoping her daughter found a nice college boy to marry and take care of her.

 

[Quiksilvr]

I do agree with the article in that it's correct when they say not all kids are cut out for college but..... the fact remains that college educated people make waaay more over the course of their working life than non-degreed people. I think it's almost 30% more. Plus, face it a college degree opens up a lot more opportunities than not having one.

Those 2 factors are enough for me to encourage (almost demand) that my kids go to college.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this or not, but there was a recent Wall Street Journal article challenging the assumption that college grads make significantly more than non-college grads. The authors really bashed the statistics everyone always quotes.

The article was called "What's a Degree Really Worth". I can't figure out how to get the link from my linkedin (where I saw the article) to disboards.

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

I think that the point about it being more important for women to attend college than men holds water. There are a few fields in which that is not the case, but there are clearly fewer options for high paying jobs for "dainty" women w/o degrees.

Now, for women who do not want stereotypical jobs, they face no such limits. The trades are actually more open to women than men, as unions have minority quotas to meet.

I do not have a daughter, but if I did, I would encourage her to attend college. If that was not an option, I would probably steer her towards a trade...

 

[LisaR]

There is no doubt that the employers are requiring those degrees but do you REALLY believe that all jobs need them. I stated upthread that my job, in no way, requires a degree. There is NOTHING that you can learn in college that will help you to do this job. This does not mean I am devaluing the college experience or the further enrichment. That is never a "wrong" thing to do. But I still think it is SILLY that many white collar "desk" jobs want someone who has gone through the degree process.

I am not even talking about fields that require specialized experience and certfications such as accountants, teachers, etc...but, well, a job like mine. Without getting into too many specifics, I work for the government but was a contractor for the government for over 20 years. I work in a field that has a very narrow skill set but must be learned on the job. There is no other way to get it but to be in the job. Let me tell you, there are hundreds of jobs like this at my agency. All we really need is a great work ethic and organization. It makes me sad to think that for, whatever reason, if a person couldn't get to college that they would be disqualified.

I'm think the employers need to really re-think what they need for a specific job instead of putting this blanket requirement on everything now.

Is it possible that college prepared you or others in your field by giving you organizational skills? I learned to get myself up every morning for college. While I had to do that at home for high school, if I dared to sleep in, the wrath of Mom would have been bestowed onto me. I had to trudge my way to class even if it was pouring or snowing. In high school, my mom or another parent could drive me or eventually I could drive myself. I didn't have that option in college. I had to make sure to take notes properly. In high school, I was friends with everyone so if I missed something, I would call them up. When you are in a lecture hall with 300 other kids, it isn't as easy to make friends that will help with missed notes, test prep, etc. I had to learn to interact with all types of people. In high school, most of us grew up together. My siblings had some of the same teachers I had in HS. There was a sense of knowing most people but I didn't know a sole in college on that first day.

I gained a great deal from college. While it may not have been specific to my exact career (and trust me, that is an understatement) it helped me become independent, focused and organized.

 

[Planogirl]

My community is the same. It does suck and to top that off, I work with young girls who are never encouraged to go to college. I've said it before when young girls are in the 7th grade nationally they beat the socks off of young boys in math and science but for some reason when they get to 10th grade they "dumb" down. They get the message to be popular you have to be stupid. I actually had 1 mother tell me that she was hoping her daughter found a nice college boy to marry and take care of her.

It's not just not being encouraged to go to college but look at how few women are in the skilled trade jobs and in certain disciplines. I know that I was considered a bit odd when I majored in engineering back in the dark ages and while not as prevalent nowadays that attitude still seems to be there.

A degree certainly doesn't guarantee a certain type of job either. If I had a nickel for every time someone tried to hire me for a traditional "women's" job, I wouldn't need a job to begin with!

 

[Christine]

Is it possible that college prepared you or others in your field by giving you organizational skills? I learned to get myself up every morning for college. While I had to do that at home for high school, if I dared to sleep in, the wrath of Mom would have been bestowed onto me. I had to trudge my way to class even if it was pouring or snowing. In high school, my mom or another parent could drive me or eventually I could drive myself. I didn't have that option in college. I had to make sure to take notes properly. In high school, I was friends with everyone so if I missed something, I would call them up. When you are in a lecture hall with 300 other kids, it isn't as easy to make friends that will help with missed notes, test prep, etc. I had to learn to interact with all types of people. In high school, most of us grew up together. My siblings had some of the same teachers I had in HS. There was a sense of knowing most people but I didn't know a sole in college on that first day.

I gained a great deal from college. While it may not have been specific to my exact career (and trust me, that is an understatement) it helped me become independent, focused and organized.

Well considering that most of us (the older people) did not go to college or finish, I would have to say no.

I went to college off and on. In between, I worked in an office setting. Now I don't want you to think that I don't like college or degrees (I do) but I really really feel that I honed my work ethic and experience in those younger, formative years. I was up at 6:00 a.m. each morning, catching the bus, getting on the subway, working 8-10 hours a day and doing it all in reverse. AND having to be responsible and a very early age.

My DD is in college right now. It is her first year. She is not the most serious student but some of her friends are. The goal is to make class as late as possible, roll out of bed and into the classroom. Yeah, and there's the "fun." I personally don't think that the 4-year college experiences shapes any kind of work ethic for students. Of course, there are those very serious student (the ones who probably really belong there) that, of course, don't function this way.

I think if my DD had to go out at her age and "hump it" in an office (or a trade), she'd be forming these "reliability" skills much earlier. I do believe that college is kind of allowing her an extended adolescence and I see it in most of the college grads we hire.

I will say that many of them have very fine-tuned livers and they function very well at office happy hours. They do learn how to drink in school and hold their alchohol.

I know, I'm generalizing and I don't mean to insult anyone because I know from being on the college thread that there are just as many serious students as there are non-serious.

I just still firmly believe that for some fields it is so ridiculous to require the degree. I have over 2 years of college under my belt and I still feel that way.

 

[Quiksilvr]

If you want to see "extended adolescence" run amok, go to a good law school and hang out with the kids who went straight through from college to law school. It can get pretty intense.

 

[CapeMayMommy]

My community is the same. It does suck and to top that off, I work with young girls who are never encouraged to go to college. I've said it before when young girls are in the 7th grade nationally they beat the socks off of young boys in math and science but for some reason when they get to 10th grade they "dumb" down. They get the message to be popular you have to be stupid. I actually had 1 mother tell me that she was hoping her daughter found a nice college boy to marry and take care of her.

But somewhere, the message is getting to some girls. Now, more women than men are getting graduate degrees. My feeling is because they have to...or suffer low pay and low respect.

 

[punkin]

I am sorry but I just disagree.

That's OK. We can disagree without being disagreeable. Different opinions are what make life interesting.

My community is the same. It does suck and to top that off, I work with young girls who are never encouraged to go to college. I've said it before when young girls are in the 7th grade nationally they beat the socks off of young boys in math and science but for some reason when they get to 10th grade they "dumb" down. They get the message to be popular you have to be stupid. I actually had 1 mother tell me that she was hoping her daughter found a nice college boy to marry and take care of her.

I have seen this and it is a national shame and embarrassment!

It's not just not being encouraged to go to college but look at how few women are in the skilled trade jobs and in certain disciplines. I know that I was considered a bit odd when I majored in engineering back in the dark ages and while not as prevalent nowadays that attitude still seems to be there.

I think I remember a statistic that only 10% of engineering graduates are women...and that's now.

 

[PeterPan09]

My community is the same. It does suck and to top that off, I work with young girls who are never encouraged to go to college. I've said it before when young girls are in the 7th grade nationally they beat the socks off of young boys in math and science but for some reason when they get to 10th grade they "dumb" down. They get the message to be popular you have to be stupid. I actually had 1 mother tell me that she was hoping her daughter found a nice college boy to marry and take care of her.

I think that's a problem in this whole country-and not just with girls. Being intelligent and actually showing it will get you branded an "elitist", a "nerd" a "geek" or a "intellectual snob" pretty fast. To be popular you have to be a "regular person" and it seems that the definition of a "regular person" is not too bright.

If you've ever seen the movie "Idiotocracy" you know where we're headed if we don't change that perception.

 

[Christine]

If you've ever seen the movie "Idiotocracy" you know where we're headed if we don't change that perception.

Love that movie (I think it's Idiocracy though). I always thought that Wall-E stole from that movie!!

 

[DawnM]

That makes sense.

I have a dear friend who works has worked in a job for almost 20 years. He is very smart, but never finished college. Unfortunately, he has advanced as far as he can without a degree. He watches people who degrees in things like ART or DRAMA move above him after about 5 years because the higher jobs require a college degree.

I have encouraged him as best I can to go back and finish. He only has about 12-18 months to finish his degree as he dropped out after 2.5 years and the school he went to offers an evening accelerated plan that he could finish in 12-18 months, but he has one child in college now and another entering college soon and says he just can't afford it.

My personal opinion is that he can't afford NOT to do it and it will pay for itself in job advancements within 2-4 years' time, but the immediate cash has him too overwhelmed to do it.

Dawn

I hire a lot of people. If I am comparing two candidates who both gave great interviews and have similar experience, but one has a college education and teh other doesn't, I'm going to hire the college grad every single time regardless of whether the job requires any college. I'll do this for two reasons. First, a college grad has generally proven that he/she can be taught. Second, when it is time to fill higher level jobs, I have an internal candidate pool who is qualified for the positions. Having an awesome employee who has no college education does me no good if the job that I'm filling requires one.