Thank You, Pete

[Disneybridein2k3]

Like you, I have strong opinion and a big mouth. I really promise this is the last time I'm chiming in on this issue (until I can't stand it anymore).

This argument is, to me, bogus. Yes, the car may be stolen or broken into, giving the thief access to the gun, which may then be used in the commission of a crime. Using that logic, automobiles should be banned, because someone might steal one and use it in the commission of a crime. How far do we extend that argument? Should we ban televisions because a criminal may break into a house, steal one, sell it, and use the money to purchase a gun on the black market, and then use that gun in the commission of a crime?

You're right, selling my house for a tent. But then someone could use the tent stake to stab someone with...I just can't be safe here, can I?

 

[Disneybridein2k3]

I think thats how Hitler started his new political party.

I think I just got compared to Hitler. You have no idea how much that is cracking me up. Thanks for the laugh pduck!

 

[dpuck1998]

I think I just got compared to Hitler. You have no idea how much that is cracking me up. Thanks for the laugh pduck!

I didn't compare you to Hitler. That would be silly....

Where is that pie anyway....

 

[Cruz Family]

Maybe he will break into your car and grab you knitting needles and poke someone eyes out. Then we have to outlaw knitting needles.

Okay enough of me keep my big mouth shut.........Lets just face it, if someone wants to commit a crime they can find a million different ways to do it. What gets me, is the cities in this country where the most homicides by way of gun are committed have some of the lowest rates of legal gun owners. People are so afraid to talk about the real problem here, Who are the people raising these animals? So many people have no problem speaking their mind to gun owners, I wonder if they would speak up to teen parents, or woman who continue to have children with no means to raise them other then government support, or the fathers who aren't around to raise them. What about parents who let there children spend hours upon hours playing these horribly violent video games that desensitize them from reality. Or people that care more about their young children cell phones and expensive sneakers then books or god forbid taking the time to sit down and have a conversation with them.
Afterall where do you think most of the criminals are coming from? I doubt many are coming from homes of law biding gun owners.

I have never had a gun nor will have a gun. I just can't stand when people wont look at where the root of the problem lies and IMHO it is with in the wall of the homes our children are being raised.

 

[dpuck1998]

I have never had a gun nor will have a gun. I just can't stand when people wont look at where the root of the problem lies and IMHO it is with in the wall of the homes our children are being raised.

Thats why I've raised my children to respect and understand guns instead of being afraid of them. Showing them and teaching them about it makes them less likely to find one and think its a toy or an "off limits" wonder to play with.

 

[dmccarty]

The individual right to self protection vs a property/company right to set rules for their establishment is a tough question to answer.

In NC a business is allowed to forbid CCW on their property with the placement of a sticker.

The interesting case is going to be when a CCW carrier leaves their weapon in the car, walks into the 7-11 aka The Stop And Rob, and is then hurt or killed during a crime that the CCW could have reasonably prevented if he/she had their weapon on their person.

If a business prevents someone from defending themselves has the business then assumed a larger responsibility for this person's safety? The courts will have to decide.

When CCW first came to FLA I remember the yelling and screaming about how there would be gun fights in the malls and streets. The gun fights where already happening. Anyone remember the incident in the mall in Miami?

The last stats I saw on crimes committed by people in FLA who had a CCW were very low. Must of the offenses were minor and stupid like carrying a weapon to the airport and trying to board a plan. CCW holders were not running around shooting and robbing people.

There was a school shooting a few years ago by a student. The student finished shooting up one school was on his way to another nearby school when a faculty member ran to his car, retrieved a pistol, and held the kid until police arrived. In NC the teacher would have been arrested for having the weapon on school grounds under current law.

By the way, you the public, has no right of protection by the police unless an officer makes a very strong statement to you as an individual. If this was not the case, the police would be sued for all crimes.

Some people have a fear of firearms and trusting people. Some people should not be trusted that is for sure but we as a society trust people with our lives all of the time. On my drive to work today I passed hundreds of cars. Any one of which could have done something either on purpose or via inattention that could have killed or injured me. Getting a drivers license does not vet ones mental stability. Whatever that is.

Later,
Dan

 

[dpuck1998]

The individual right to self protection vs a property/company right to set rules for their establishment is a tough question to answer.

In NC a business is allowed to forbid CCW on their property with the placement of a sticker.

The interesting case is going to be when a CCW carrier leaves their weapon in the car, walks into the 7-11 aka The Stop And Rob, and is then hurt or killed during a crime that the CCW could have reasonably prevented if he/she had their weapon on their person.

If a business prevents someone from defending themselves has the business then assumed a larger responsibility for this person's safety? The courts will have to decide.

When CCW first came to FLA I remember the yelling and screaming about how there would be gun fights in the malls and streets. The gun fights where already happening. Anyone remember the incident in the mall in Miami?

The last stats I saw on crimes committed by people in FLA who had a CCW were very low. Must of the offenses were minor and stupid like carrying a weapon to the airport and trying to board a plan. CCW holders were not running around shooting and robbing people.

There was a school shooting a few years ago by a student. The student finished shooting up one school was on his way to another nearby school when a faculty member ran to his car, retrieved a pistol, and held the kid until police arrived. In NC the teacher would have been arrested for having the weapon on school grounds under current law.

By the way, you the public, has no right of protection by the police unless an officer makes a very strong statement to you as an individual. If this was not the case, the police would be sued for all crimes.

Some people have a fear of firearms and trusting people. Some people should not be trusted that is for sure but we as a society trust people with our lives all of the time. On my drive to work today I passed hundreds of cars. Any one of which could have done something either on purpose or via inattention that could have killed or injured me. Getting a drivers license does not vet ones mental stability. Whatever that is.

Later,
Dan

Bravo Dan!

 

[wilde_oscar]

First...if what saying is true.....then how would this protect you when you are carrying a bag of money? If you gun is unloaded and locked in a box in the trunk it's not offering any protection.

when carrying money, it was not locked up... it was on my person. if you do not have a concealed carry permit, this would not be legal.

Second...this is not what this person did. This employee notified everyone that he was bringing his gun to work. Had he kept it locked in a box in his trunk, "where no one would see it, or know about it", this would not be a topic of discussion and the Orange County police would not have been waiting for him to arrive.

This guy was standing up for his rights, and grandstanding, probably at the encouragement of the NRA, so they could get this in front of judges. I don't agree with how he did what he did, but I understand why.

This is going to be a "hot button" issue until the first incident where an employee goes to their vehicle, gets their gun, and starts blowing people away.

there really isn't anything stopping this from happening now other than is it against the law to kill people.

I would hope this doesnt happen at Disney, but I also hope it doesnt happen at Walmart or Target or Costco....or anywhere else.

so the law is in place, and the next time a nut job goes off shooting people will this law be the reason the guy went nuts? these kinda things are already rare and horrible tragedies. heck the Pope came out for a ban on assault weapons saying something to the effect that these weapons are so horrible surely this will end war. it was Pope Urban II in the 9th Century talking about the crossbow. (I didn't look up the exact quote, cause I have not had much coffee yet) If everyone else was willing to give up all their guns, I'd have no problem with it... but we have this rule book that we choose to follow and it was this pesky second amendment. this whole situation is gonna play out in the courts, and Florida has a long history of liberal (little L, not the big L) does anyone remember the make my day law? the argument against was that it would lead to shoot outs in daycare parking lots, has there been a sudden rash of shoot outs in daycare parking lots I am missing?

we agree on this more than we disagree, but for different reasons. I don't think breathing should be the litmus test on carrying a gun, or possessing a gun... I have no problem with tight rules, it is when you ban them en mass you are saying no one can be trusted... there are smart responsible people that like to target shoot. if ya wanna keep your firearm locked away while at work, and are responsible, then wanna go poke holes in paper after work that's fine. but what you are saying is that everyone is on the verge of snapping and going on a shooting spree at any min. at work? well that is not happening now, and this law is not going to change that.

 

[wilde_oscar]

OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?
Cruz - I also have strong feelings on this matter but I just can't seem to get my big mouth to stay shut, darn it all.

Reasonable people can disagree. I'm cool with what you are saying, it is just that, it hasn't happened and is very rare. Do you stop putting money in banks because banks get robbed? You are not going to get into the lock box in my car, well you might have a cutting torch in your pocket but Mostly because it is really rare that I would leave it there. I don't have a second amendment sticker on my car, cause I am not tipping any one off about the fact there might be a gun in my car.

I just got back from a week of camping and backpacking in the mountains with a rifle and a hand gun, that we took for target shooting. around the "campfire" we got asked about what we were up to and told camping neighbors that we went target shooting and mt. biking on a neighboring mt. no one went nuts are started killing people, though we did kill a few brain cells with beer and smores.

thieves are stupid and crimes are usually about convenience, hence the term convenience store. car breakins are usually smash and grab of something in plain view. if something outrageous happens, you are welcome to throw dole whip at me for hours.

 

[pta-mom]

Being Canadian, we do not have the same laws in regards to guns so I truly don't really understand all the "feeling" behind owning guns, carrying guns, using guns.... honestly, I know NO ONE who grew up with guns in their home other than perhaps an occasional hunting rifle.

I am curious why it seems to be so important that you are able to carry a concealed weapon in a locked carrying case in a locked trunk? What for? Why do people need this while shopping at Walmart, visiting the local 7-11 or working at DW?

Honestly, I am not trying to start a gun bash thread or any other....I just don't understand why anyone, other than someone's job who must have a gun, or someone going hunting, would need a gun in their trunk.

 

[dmccarty]

I am curious why it seems to be so important that you are able to carry a concealed weapon in a locked carrying case in a locked trunk? What for? Why do people need this while shopping at Walmart, visiting the local 7-11 or working at DW?

Its not that people want to carry the weapon in a locked case in the car but that its what the new law allows. If you have a permit to CCW in FLA and you carry while on the way to work, what do you do when you get to the work place that does not allow you to carry the weapon INTO work?

In effect the company has given you a choice. Either work here under our rules which prevent you from legally protecting yourself. Or don't work here. Not really good options either way. The new FLA law says you can lock the weapon up in YOUR car while at work. That is all. It does not say you can carry into the building. There is a loop holes in the law, one of which is regarding fireworks at a place of business. WDW is trying to use this loophole to prevent CM from locking a weapon up in their car.

The CM in this case is saying that the WDW use of the loophole is bogus since WDW business purpose is not fireworks and he is not near fireworks. Disney is just using that loophole to prevent him from protecting himself.

Thus he set himself up to be charged so the courts will resolve the issue.

As I said in my earlier note its really a question of who has more rights/responsibilities? The company or the individual? The law split the issue and said if you have a CCW then you can carry to work and leave the weapon in the car.

7-11's and other convenience stores are called Stop And Robs for a reason. About ten years ago a guy went into a Stop and Rob and got in line at the cashier. He waited patiently in line and when it was his turn he pulled a gun and threatened the clerk. Unfortunately for the the thug, and fortunately for the clerk and other customers, the man standing behind the thug was the Sheriff of the county. The Sheriff has been in office for decades and still is. The thug should have recognized him but alas did not.

The Sheriff shot the thug six times and killed him. The Sheriff was not going to let the thug sing "I shot the Sheriff."

Crimes happen all over the place. In my little town the Stop and Rob I go to from time to time was robbed a few months ago as have others in town. The grocery store was even robbed one early morning. Crimes including murder have happened at Walmart's in my area.

Later,
Dan

 

[pta-mom]

But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them? (Yes, I get police, military, etc) But for the average citizen, what are all these people with guns "legally protecting themselves" from? Is it REALLY so bad in the states (Florida, or wherever) that the average person feels they must pack a weapon when they go to the corner store? Or work? Or the parks? Is it just that you really think it's safer that EVERYONE has a gun to even up the playing field?

I know that sometimes stores are robbed, crazy people start shooting in schools, people are murdered walking down the street...but do you feel so threatened in your environment that you think it is a LIKELIHOOD that you will need to protect yourself, only by use of a gun? And how does having that in your trunk help in any way? What difference would it make if you are in a 7-11 that is being robbed if the gun is in the trunk?

It's interesting...I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be terrified now to visit Florida because of all these nasty people who intend to potentially harm me for the fun of it or to fear all these armed individuals who might start shooting to protect themselves. I am unbelievably dumb founded that any number of individuals I pass (or cars) may have a concealed weapon on them. And honestly, I'm still not understanding why there are so many average citizens who feel they need one.

Thanks Dan for trying to explain that but I guess it's just a bit of a culture thing. It's hard I think for me to go from knowing no one who has a gun to understanding why seemingly everyone would want one. I appreciate your response though!

 

[Cruz Family]

But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them? (Yes, I get police, military, etc) But for the average citizen, what are all these people with guns "legally protecting themselves" from? Is it REALLY so bad in the states (Florida, or wherever) that the average person feels they must pack a weapon when they go to the corner store? Or work? Or the parks? Is it just that you really think it's safer that EVERYONE has a gun to even up the playing field?

I know that sometimes stores are robbed, crazy people start shooting in schools, people are murdered walking down the street...but do you feel so threatened in your environment that you think it is a LIKELIHOOD that you will need to protect yourself, only by use of a gun? And how does having that in your trunk help in any way? What difference would it make if you are in a 7-11 that is being robbed if the gun is in the trunk?

It's interesting...I'm not sure whether I'm supposed to be terrified now to visit Florida because of all these nasty people who intend to potentially harm me for the fun of it or to fear all these armed individuals who might start shooting to protect themselves. I am unbelievably dumb founded that any number of individuals I pass (or cars) may have a concealed weapon on them. And honestly, I'm still not understanding why there are so many average citizens who feel they need one.

Thanks Dan for trying to explain that but I guess it's just a bit of a culture thing. It's hard I think for me to go from knowing no one who has a gun to understanding why seemingly everyone would want one. I appreciate your response though!

I understand you being afraid, but what I don't understand why you are so terrified by people carrying guns legally. I would be more worried about the criminals who have been, and will continue to carry guns with absolutely no regard to any laws in place.

 

[Paging Tom Morrow]

OR, until WO's perfectly legal lock-box gun carrying 2nd amendment right protector gets his car broken into while it is parked/unoccupied and the darned gun with its locked box and all gets stolen. And wouldn't you know it, the theives have figured out how to open the darn case. Uh oh, they are heading back into the store to confront the cashier who ticked them off! Guess that 2nd amendment right bumper sticker tipped the thief off there might be a gun locked in the car (shhh!) - shame the thief doesn't have to be competent. Oh well. Guess we'll be seeing that story on the news. Oh, and once this actually does happen, because y'all know it will soon enough...can I get a shout out on the podcast for being able to see it coming?

Personally, I think it would be much more likely that said gun owners sees someone being physically assaulted/threatened by a gun. He runs to where he keep his locked gun, grabs it and saves lives.

Of course, I've actually read about the above story happening. The gentleman's name was Mark Allen Wilson, and he died saving others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson

I've never read about yours, but I would agree that your "story" would get better ratings on TV and sell more newspapers.

 

[pta-mom]

I understand you being afraid, but what I don't understand why you are so terrified by people carrying guns legally. I would be more worried about the criminals who have been, and will continue to carry guns with absolutely no regard to any laws in place.

Well again, admitting to the reality of not having a very good understanding of guns to start with, I'm not sure that just because someone has the right to "carry guns legally" necessarily means that they are sane, trained & in the right frame of mind at any particular moment. I also think that *many* people with the ability to shoot guns near me are more apt to hit me than if most people don't have a gun with them.

For example....though I live in a city of near a million people, & actually do know personally of a young lady who was killed by a gun yeilding crazy person, I actually have NO FEAR WHATSEVER of anyone shooting me. Not to say it *couldn't* happen, just highly unlikely. Why? Because a very small population of those around me have a firearm...yes, probably mostly criminals. But, if only one in 1000 people (criminals & police) have guns, that means I only have less than a one in 1000 chance of being shot. If the *average* person in Florida has a gun (& I'm not saying they do, just saying *if* they did), that's a lot of people with guns, a lot higher chance of my being shot, either maliciously or accidentily.

Really, this has nothing to do with my "fear" as I really don't have any regarding this issue. I guess for me, I'm still just stuck on why the average person feels the need to carry a concealed a weapon. I think this would have a lot less to do with *my* fear & more to do with theirs.

 

[wilde_oscar]

But WHY would someone want to carry a weapon into work with them?

this was the point i wanted to make early on... Pete's characterization of the situation is that people can now carry guns into work... THIS IS NOT WHAT THIS LAW IS ABOUT. What this law allows for is that you can have your firearm locked in your car, while at work with out fear of retribution from your employer. Locked in a car, not carried into work.

Why has nothing to do with it... why climb a mountain, why go swimming, why dance when no one is watching... "why" doesn't matter.

if you don't see it and don't hear it, and it makes them feel safe, and they are properly licensed, they get to carry a weapon. Concealed carry is not like getting a drivers license, you have to show proficiency and training, submit to an extensive back ground check, get finger printed, etc. is it perfect, no, are their any instances of folks that concealed carry going nuts and killing people or shooting up play grounds, nope. over and over again it boils down to a complete misunderstanding and fears/phobias that are not based in reality. It is not happening now, the only thing the law changes is that your employer can't fire you for having your firearm LOCKED IN YOUR CAR. nothing to do with taking a gun into work.

 

[JustSayin]

I finally had a chance to actually listen to the podcast, and I would like to applaud Pete for his “rant”. I thought his expression of his opinion was very reasonable. I may (or may not) agree with some of his opinions on the gun issue, but I agree 100% that Disney (and any other employer) has the right to ban weapons on their property,

This law is an assault on private property rights. Nobody is forcing you to be a Disney employee. If you truly feel the need to carry a gun in your car, go work somewhere that doesn’t have an issue with you having one on their property.

Although I currently do not own a gun, I grew up in a house with guns, and I believe strongly in your right to own and carry (with reasonable regulation) guns, but that is COMPLETELY not the issue here.

 

[Disneybridein2k3]

Reasonable people can disagree. I'm cool with what you are saying, it is just that, it hasn't happened and is very rare. Do you stop putting money in banks because banks get robbed? ..... if something outrageous happens, you are welcome to throw dole whip at me for hours.

You know I love you Rex...but you are comparing apples to oranges here. Don't you know how difficult is is to rob a bank? Haven't you seen Point Break??? You need so much more than guns - president masks to start... Keanu Reeves is helpful... anyway, I'm getting off the subject. A reasonable and prudent person brings their valuables from their vehicles when they leave the car for fear it might get broken into because they know if it could get stolen if it is in plain site (or like a portable GPS, the telltale ring on the windshield glass will give the clue to a thief there *might* be a gps in the car tempting them to do a smash and grab anyway. Here's the trouble - I work in auto claims and my husband is a cop so I see this story from both angles but the whole car thing I see very clearly from the auto insurance side. Guns are not part of the vehicle and are not covered under the auto policy at my company (maybe under homeowners subject to your dedectible) - but the problem is you will have stupid people with their 2nd amendment right bumper stickers that are basically advertising the gun that is locked in the car. It only takes a small piece of ceramic on the tip of a coat hanger (that's what thieves are using today to break your glass) to smash the glass to find out. What they choose to do with the gun (use it, sell it, whatever) - is neither here nor there - now it is the cop's problem because now that perfectly legal, licenced handgun is in the care of who knows? Anyway, I wouldn't ever throw dole whip at you - I'm looking forward to still drinking with you on the cruise silly! I'm not letting a little issue like this get in the way of a good time on the cruise!

Personally, I think it would be much more likely that said gun owners sees someone being physically assaulted/threatened by a gun. He runs to where he keep his locked gun, grabs it and saves lives.

Of course, I've actually read about the above story happening. The gentleman's name was Mark Allen Wilson, and he died saving others.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Allen_Wilson

I've never read about yours, but I would agree that your "story" would get better ratings on TV and sell more newspapers.

You got me. I can't give you my "story" because they are claim numbers (work product) from my job and I can't prove the guns have been used. I only pay for the damage the thief causes when they break in the cars (which is every day - they don't all make the news, you know) and the owners and police are left to figure out the rest.

 

[Launchpad11B]

Guns is one of a few "hot button issues" that always sparks a debate. On this issue I fall on the side of the responsible gun owners. I'm impressed by the fact that this discussion has stayed civil. When people feel strongly about a subject it is easy to get "heated" and then get mean. Disneybridein2k3 and wildeoscar are good examples of why the DIS is a great and friendly discussion forum. See you guys on the cruise!....(no guns, I promise )

 

[dmccarty]

First Evil people are all over not just in FLA or NC or the USA. They are in Canada as well. I remember reading about the serial killer in Canada feeding his victims to pigs.

Its not about being afraid its about being prepared. I wear a seat belt when I drive not because I'm afraid I'll be in an accident but because I might be in an accident. I carry disability insurance not because I want to cash in the policy but just in case. When bad things happen they happen fast and you better be ready to handle the problem NOW. That may or may not include a CCW.

What most people do is play the odds that they won't be a victim of violent crime. Most people win the bet. The problem is that if you get picked to be a victim. What are YOU going to do about it. Its a question you better have an answer too before the stuff hits the fan... And it hits FAST.

One can minimize one's chances of being a victim but it can only be minimized so much. We have a high profile murder here of a UNC student. Its not been released on how the two thugs and the victim came in contact but they either car jacked her late at night or they got into her apartment through an open or unlocked door. The victim was not living in a bad neighborhood, involved with gangs, buying drugs, etc. She was a low risk of being a victim. But she was picked to be a victim. The thugs also are suspected in a few other murders of college kids who were in their apartments. They were killed for a few hundred dollars.

These victims likely never gave much thought to being a victim. They played the odds. The pieces of paper the prohibits theft, kidnapping, firearms violations and murder did not help the victims. The only thing that might have saved the victims is their own preparedness to handle the situation.

I don't think must people are afraid and thus CCW. They just are trying to minimize their chances of being a victim. The odds are one won't be a victim of violent crime but if you are not ready to handle the situation, the penalty is severe. CCW is only a small part of being able to handle the situation.

You are still hung up on the locked in a trunk deal. The gun in the trunk won't do much good but it can do some good as has been referenced. Keeping the weapon on your person would is the better solution but laws may prevent this in all circumstances.

There is a serial rapists in Orlando targeting women joggers. What should women do to protect themselves? These women are in decent shape if they are jogging yet the rapist is overpowering them. What should they do? Not run? Not enjoy the parks? When I lived in FLA our neighborhood had a park right next to it. A serial rapist was using the park to trap victims. His favorite target was women with baby's in strollers. He would threaten the baby to make the women compliant. What should a women do?

By the way mace and pepper spray are useful but they don't cause someone to just stop an attack.

So do you roll the dice and do nothing? Or do something to increase your odds?

Those questions are the heart of this whole subject as well as whose rights are more important, a property owner visited by the public or an individual? The courts have decided on either side of this question in the past.

Later,
Dan