Texas school to offer Bible class

ford family said:
I don't understand. Doesn't historical mean a person in history as opposed to legendary?
www.dictionary.com says


ford family
Certainly..There is no proof the Jesus ,or Abraham or Moses ever existed. It's entirely possible that all 3 of them never existed and hence are legends..History classes should stick to things that have been factually proven..
It is a fact that a religion called Christianity developed in the 1st century.
It is a fact that a religion called Judaism developed arounf 5000 years ago
It is not a fact that, Adam, Eve,Noah,Abraham,Moses,AARON or Jesus ever walked this earth.
It doesn't matter that you or I may BELIEVE they did,it is not a fact
 
JoeEpcotRocks said:
How unfortunate of the Jews to be religious. I did not know Hilter was a big Bible reader. If Hilter would use any reason, why blame religion?


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Quotes from Hitler
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance
with the will of the Almighty Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 46]

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"This human world of ours would be inconceivable without
the practical existence of a religious belief."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.152]

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"What we have to fight for...is the freedom and independence
of the fatherland, so that our people may be enabled to fulfill
the mission assigned to it by the Creator."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp. 125]

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"And the founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of his
estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary,
He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God."
[Adolph Hitler, _Mein Kampf_, pp.174]

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"It may be that today gold has become the exclusive ruler of life, but
the time will come when man will again bow down before a higher god."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 2]

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"....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf", Vol. 1, Chapter 11,
precisely echoing Martin Luther's teachings]

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"Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable
stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin
the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 1]

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"The greatness of Christianity did not lie in attempted negotiations for
compromise with any similar philosophical opinions in the ancient world, but
in its inexorable fanaticism in preaching and fighting for its own doctrine."
[Adolph Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 1 Chapter 12]


It will at any rate be my supreme task to see to it that in the newly awakened NSDAP, the adherents of both Confessions can live peacefully together side by side in order that they may take their stand in the common fight against the power which is the mortal foe of any true Christianity.
-Adolf Hitler, in an article headed "A New Beginning," 26 Feb. 1925


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Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in March 1933

[Note, "Except the Lord built the house, they labour in vain" comes from Psalms 127:1 ]


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The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933


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We want honestly to earn the resurrection of our people through our industry, our perseverance, our will. We ask not of the Almighty 'Lord, make us free'!-- we want to be active, to work, to agree together as brothers, to strive in rivalry with one another to bring about the hour when we can come before Him and when we may ask of Him: 'Lord, Thou seest that we have transformed ourselves, the German people is not longer the people of dishonour, of shame, of war within itself, of faintheartedness and little faith: no, Lord, the German people has become strong again in spirit, strong in will, strong in endurance, strong to bear all sacrifices.' 'Lord, we will not let Thee go: bless now our fight for our freedom; the fight we wage for our German people and Fatherland.'
-Adolf Hitler, giving prayer in a speech on May Day 1933


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This is for us a ground for satisfaction, since we desire that the fight in the religious camps should come to an end... all political action in the parties will be forbidden to priests for all time, happy because we know what is wanted by millions who long to see in the priest only the comforter of their souls and not the representative of their political convictions.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the men of the SA. at Dormund, 9 July 1933 on the day after the signing of the Concordat.


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National Socialism has always affirmed that it is determined to take the Christian Churches under the protection of the State.... The decisive factor which can justify the existence alike of Church and State is the maintenance of men's spiritual and bodily health, for it that health were destroyed it would mean the end of the State and also the end of the Church.... It is my sincere hope that thereby for Germany, too, through free agreement there has been produced a final clarification of spheres in the functions of the State and of one Church.
-Adolf Hitler, on a wireless on 22 July, the evening before the Evangelical Church Election

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The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.
-Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party (quoted from John Cornwell's "Hitler's Pope"


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We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

[This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism.]


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I believe that Providence would never have allowed us to see the victory of the Movement if it had the intention after all to destroy us at the end.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to old members of the Party at Munich on 8 Nov. 1933


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The German Church and the People are practically the same body. Therefore there could be no issue between Church and State. The Church, as such, has nothing to do with political affairs. On the other hand, the State has nothing to do with the faith or inner organization of the Church. The election of November 12th would be an expression of church constituency, but not as a Church.
-Adolf Hitler, answering C. F. Macfarland about Church & State (in his book, The New Church and the New Germany)


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While we destroyed the Centre Party, we have not only brought thousands of priests back into the Church, but to millions of respectable people we have restored their faith in their religion and in their priests. The union of the Evangelical Church in a single Church for the whole Reich, the Concordat with the Catholic Church, these are but milestones on the road which leads to the establishment of a useful relation and a useful co operation between the Reich and the two Confessions.
-Adolf Hitler, in his New Year Message on 1 Jan. 1934


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Imbued with the desire to secure for the German people the great religious, moral, and cultural values rooted in the two Christian Confessions, we have abolished the political organizations but strengthened the religious institutions.
-Adolf Hitler, speaking in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1934


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It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934


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We have experienced a miracle, something unique, something the like of which there has hardly been in the history of the world. God first allowed our people to be victorious for four and a half years, then He abased us, laid upon us a period of shamelessness, but now after a struggle of fourteen years he has permitted us to bring that period to a close. It is a miracle which has been wrought upon the German people.... It shows us that the Almighty has not deserted our people, that He received it into favour at the moment when it rediscovered itself. And that our people shall never again lose itself, that must be our vow so long as we shall live and so long as the Lord gives us the strength to carry on the fight.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech to the "Old Guard" of the Party at Munich on 19 March, 1934


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The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavour to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren ), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of to-day.
-Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda


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No, it is not we that have deserted Christianity, it is those who came before us who deserted Christianity. We have only carried through a clear division between politics which have to do with terrestrial things, and religion, which must concern itself with the celestial sphere. There has been no interference with the doctrine (Lehre ) of the Confessions or with their religious freedom (Bekenntnisfreiheit ), nor will there be any such interference. On the contrary the State protects religion, though always on the one condition that religion will not be used as a cover for political ends....
National Socialism neither opposes the Church nor is it anti-religious, but on the contrary it stands on the ground of a real Christianity.... For their interests cannot fail to coincide with ours alike in our fight against the symptoms of degeneracy in the world of to-day, in our fight against a Bolshevist culture, against atheistic movement, against criminality, and in our struggle for a consciousness of a community in our national life... These are not anti-Christian, these are Christian principles! And I believe that if we should fail to follow these principles then we should to be able to point to our successes, for the result of our political battle is surely not unblest by God.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech at Koblenz, to the Germans of the Saar, 26 Aug. 1934


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So far as the Evangelical Confessions are concerned we are determined to put an end to existing divisions, which are concerned only with the forms of organization, and to create a single Evangelical Church for the whole Reich....
And we know that were the great German reformer [Martin Luther] with us to-day he would rejoice to be freed from the necessity of his own time and, like Ulrich von Hutten, his last prayer would be not for the Churches of the separate States: it would be of Germany that he would think and of the Evangelical Church of Germany.
-Adolf Hitler, in his Proclamation at the Parteitag at Nuremberg on 5 Sept. 1934
 
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching. I'll tell you what...I'll agree to fund that about the same time you agree to fund a class entitled, "The Bible: Why it is pure bunk and anybody that believes it probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy".

'kay ?
 
wvrevy said:
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching. I'll tell you what...I'll agree to fund that about the same time you agree to fund a class entitled, "The Bible: Why it is pure bunk and anybody that believes it probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy".

'kay ?

Geez, as an open, accepting person your obvious disrespect and costant put down and name calling of christian people are disturbing. Giving the libs a good name you are.
 

wvrevy said:
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching. I'll tell you what...I'll agree to fund that about the same time you agree to fund a class entitled, "The Bible: Why it is pure bunk and anybody that believes it probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy".

'kay ?

:confused3 Any good, non-evangelical Bible class should incorporate info like that, and that's the kind of class I would support. (Not saying this class in Texas would or would not be that kind of a class because I haven't seen the curriculum.) My Bible classes in college covered other parallel texts and history. It wasn't about believing the Bible. It was more learning the context of it. (Fascinating stuff, really!)
 
wvrevy said:
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching. I'll tell you what...I'll agree to fund that about the same time you agree to fund a class entitled, "The Bible: Why it is pure bunk and anybody that believes it probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy".

'kay ?


Yep and my tax dollars that go to fund public schools which my children do not attend, my choice to send them to private school but I can't take my tax dollars to pay for my child's private school education.
 
Someone mentioned that it would be OK in a school district where a majority of people supported the inclusion of something religious.

Think about what it would be like for your kids to be in the minority in that school district. I was the only Jew in my school growing up in the 80s and the whole Christmas season was uncomfortable for me. As a kid I didn't understand why no one cared that this was someone I was not a part of.

As I got into high school and it was no longer OK to focus solely on Christmas, I go tot deal with student, parents, and teachers complaining about how it's too bad they can't do more. Hello!?! The auditorium was full of decorated Christmas trees, the whole school was decorated with Santa and red and green stuff. What were they prevented from doing except for turning it religious? It still made the non-Christians uncomfortable.
 
ncgolfer said:
Geez, as an open, accepting person your obvious disrespect and costant put down and name calling of christian people are disturbing. Giving the libs a good name you are.


Exactly, I have found that many who preach tolerance want tolerance for their views etc., but they aren't very tolerant of something they choose not to believe in.
 
I think it is fascinating that the first histories and biographical information about Alexander the Great weren't written until almost 500 years after his death. Isn't that interesting?
 
JennyMominRI said:
Certainly..There is no proof the Jesus ,or Abraham or Moses ever existed. It's entirely possible that all 3 of them never existed and hence are legends..History classes should stick to things that have been factually proven..
It is a fact that a religion called Christianity developed in the 1st century.
It is a fact that a religion called Judaism developed arounf 5000 years ago
It is not a fact that, Adam, Eve,Noah,Abraham,Moses,AARON or Jesus ever walked this earth.
It doesn't matter that you or I may BELIEVE they did,it is not a fact

But Jesus, Abraham and Moses probably existed, albeit just as ordinary men, with the religious aspects amplified afterwards to suit the needs of the church leaders.
Doesn't Moses turn up in Egyptian history as a contemporary of Ramses the Great, part of the myth of the Hebrew slaves?
I thought the Roman records of that time pinpointed Jesus as an executed criminal?
Not sure about Abraham but I think the term "historical" is justified.
I certainly think they might have existed whereas I think God, Adam, Eve and Noah never did although symbolically they are very important.
Studying religions as part of early history is extremely interesting. It helps bring into context the way cultures and races have developed over the millenia, "borrowing" beliefs and altering them to suit the needs of the religious leaders.
Whether or not it should be mandatory is questionable, depending on what the curriculum contains. In my opinion,teaching a belief system seems wrong, studying belief systems does not.

ford family
 
wvrevy said:
Really ? So, that whole commandment saying that "thou shalt have no god before me" is what...just a suggestion ? People of other faiths are now to be admitted to heaven (making them just as good as people of "The Faith" ?
Christians should have no other God before God. We are free to disagree with other of other beleifs, but we must love and respect them even if we don't agree with their religious choices, just as we ask them to do for us. Its not a matter of being better. I am no better or worse than any other person on this planet (Christian or non). I am no more or less loved than any other person on this planet (Chirstian or non). Christian are not taught to feel superior (Jesus warn against this very firmly), we just have come to am understanding of reality that some others don't share. We see ourselves as just like everyone else, but we have chosen to accept what we understand to be a gift of forgiveness.
So, the Catholics just have it wrong, then ? And the Southern Baptists ? And virtually every other bible thumping group out there ? In virtually no "Christian" religion are women referred to as being equal to men.
Virtually none huh? Where do you come up this these things? Methodists have no such beleif (in fact, our book of Discipline forbids it). Nor do Presbyterians, or most Bible Churches I know. I know there are some Christian demoninations say women are lssor, but many, many do not. And yes. I do think the Catholics got this one wrong, but we are discussing what the Bible says, not what the denominations say.

If it "can be" so many things, then why is it nearly always religion ? Even the holocaust during world war II was based on disdain for those of a different religion. You may not like it, but it doesn't take an expert in history to see that the bible - and those that use it to further their cause - has caused more pain, misery, and death in the last two millenia than any other single cause. Period.
The Jew's belief in God caused Hitler to try to wipe them out? Are you really proposing that? Sorry, I refuse to give up my faith because someone choose to use it as a tool for evil, especially whenit is so often used for good. Those who use the Bible to justify evil are clearly not following the teachings of Jesus, who taught us to love our enemys. When you are ready to give up democracy and freedom (both of which have been used as an excuse for evil at various points in history) give me a call and we'll talk. better yet, nearly all even in hoistory has been performed by a government, lets just toss out all governments as clearly they cause evil. Unitl that day, I will continue to be proud to work with a religion which helps to feed and cloth the poor, house the homeless and educate the illiterate in locations all around the world, And I will continue to read the teaching of Jesus which teach that love of our fellow man is second only to love of God. This, in my mind, is the best path to peace.

What was that tree that Eve ate from again ? :rolleyes: The fable at the very heart of the entire book is based upon the idea that Adam and Eve represented perfection, so long as they remained ignorant of "good and evil". By gaining knowledge, they fell from grace.

Try studying the book (as I am proposing most should do, along with other religious texts). If you do, you will find that the story of Adam and Eve is about creation and the condition of man, not about the virtue of ignorance. No man is perfect, and God was trying to tell them that non perfect beings will experience pain if they try to manage good and evil on their own, which is what happened. Once that step had been taken, the bible actuall encourage the study of good and evil so that man may arem himself as best as possible.The tree was the tree of knowledge of Good and evil, not the tree of Knowledge in general. NOWHERE does the discourage education or incourage ignorance.
You're right, it can't. So says the constitution. If you want your children indoctrinated into that nonsense, you are free to do so. You are not free to force it onto any other children through a publicly funded school.
And how is Greek Mythology different? It was a religion in its time. Should children not study that to?

The censorship that you would place on simply trying to understand the faiths of other frightens me. You claim Christians are closed minded and feel superior, but you don't even want children to be taught what others beleive and so they can try to understand their motavations. The irony is amazing. I don't want to indoctrinate anyone, I simply want them to understand what I and other people of various faiths beleive. I do not want to force them to beleive it themselves and would fight against any attempt to do so.

I spend half of my study time studying the faiths of others becuase it helps me to understand how the wolrd works and I find ALL faiths contain wisdom, even if I don't beleive in the theology of them. What a closed, narrow world we live in where people are too frightened to simply learn what others beleive. The instant assocation some have the equates simply trying to understand the beleifs of others with an attempt to convert them boogles my mind.
 
wvrevy said:
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching. I'll tell you what...I'll agree to fund that about the same time you agree to fund a class entitled, "The Bible: Why it is pure bunk and anybody that believes it probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy".

'kay ?
A course on faith that is taught in a scholarly manor should not be about proving or disproving a faith, it is should be simply about understanding the faith. It most certainly should not be about trying to convert someone to a faith.

I am sorry that there is something about this topic that causes you to be so arrogant and disrespectful. I don't know why the topic makes you so angry. If it is because some arrogant Christians have tried to push their views on you, then, as Christian, I appologize for their actions. Please understand that no one here is trying to convert you or anyone else (including the school children in question) nor is anyone referring to your world view as "bunk" . We are simply trying to encourage education that would help people with various understandings of faith understand each other better. I thought that was a good thing. :confused3

To me its simple. Religion is part of culture. To understand the cultures of the world we MUST understand their dominant religions. To say that we shouldn't study the religions of the world (in an academic way, not a spiritual way) is to say we should not attempt to understand our own and other cultures completely. That strikes me as the same type of mistake the Catholic church once made with science. We should not discourage trying to understand that which we don't understand, even if we feel threatened by it.

You don't have to adopt or approve of something to try to understand it. I undersatnd greek myths to be false in terms of theology, but the Greeks didn't. There is so much to be learned about Greek culture and humanity in general by studying their beliefs. Those beliefs were important to the Greeks, so it behoves us to find out why and understand the beliefs as best we can. It is even more important that we do so with modern day faiths, for the cultures they impact effect ore lifes every day.
 
ncgolfer said:
I made the same point in a previous post and got called some very nice names by the "tolerant", "loving", "open" liberal folks, so get ready! :confused3

ncgolfer said:
Geez, as an open, accepting person your obvious disrespect and costant put down and name calling of christian people are disturbing. Giving the libs a good name you are.

If you are truly interested in open, respectful responses, then your generalizations and derogatory tone toward "libs" aren't likely the best prompt.





In regards to the general discussion...


I'm about as liberal as they come. I respect the Christian faith as well as other faiths practiced in the U.S., and wouldn't for a minute want to limit anyones rights to practice their faith. But, that doesn't mean that any faith, even the majority one, deserves to be preached in a civic context.

The Bible can be taught in many different ways. One can preach the Bible- this is what needs to be excluded in the public classroom.

But a class that teaches the Bible in historical context (that treats it like a historical document, not doctrine) is fine.

In fact, this is a class I'd love to take. Yes, people over the years have used the Bible to support their various beliefs; how fascinating to read passages and study how one interpretation started wars or ended them, justified the persecution of people and later led to actions of social justice.

To call the Bible a piece of literature doesn't diminish it's importance and the impact it's had in shaping our understanding of the world and our own social and cultural landscape. Despite one's religion, there is no denying this impact.

It's not the Bible I fear, or its teaching; it's the people and institutions who use it to justify thier political agenda who frighten me.
 
wvrevy said:
Also, I could care less if it is an "elective" class...It is still my tax dollar going to fund a religious teaching.

How is your attitude regarding this issue any different than the attitudes of those that don't want alternate lifestyles taught in schools? Those would be the folks that you criticize as intolerant, yet you have the same intolerance when it comes to religious beliefs.
 
BuckNaked said:
How is your attitude regarding this issue any different than the attitudes of those that don't want alternate lifestyles taught in schools? Those would be the folks that you criticize as intolerant, yet you have the same intolerance when it comes to religious beliefs.

Agreed! :sunny:

Many people are "tolerant" of us religious folks as long as we stay huddled in our churches or at our kitchen table. Well, we're in the real world and so are our kids, and we will have a voice in what they are being taught. (And we pay taxes, too.)
 
ford family said:
But Jesus, Abraham and Moses probably existed, albeit just as ordinary men, with the religious aspects amplified afterwards to suit the needs of the church leaders.
Doesn't Moses turn up in Egyptian history as a contemporary of Ramses the Great, part of the myth of the Hebrew slaves?
I thought the Roman records of that time pinpointed Jesus as an executed criminal?
Not sure about Abraham but I think the term "historical" is justified.
I certainly think they might have existed whereas I think God, Adam, Eve and Noah never did although symbolically they are very important.
Studying religions as part of early history is extremely interesting. It helps bring into context the way cultures and races have developed over the millenia, "borrowing" beliefs and altering them to suit the needs of the religious leaders.
Whether or not it should be mandatory is questionable, depending on what the curriculum contains. In my opinion,teaching a belief system seems wrong, studying belief systems does not.

ford family
There is no historical evidence of the Exodus or of Moses..There are no ROman records of Jesus and there is only 1 mention of Pilate which was not found until relatively recently..There are quite a few records of Herod.
 
Galahad said:
I think it is fascinating that the first histories and biographical information about Alexander the Great weren't written until almost 500 years after his death. Isn't that interesting?
But there were tons of contemporaneus were references of him in quite a few places well before that..The only references to the biblical figures I listed are from the bible
Have to go..Have a plane to catch :earboy2:
 


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