Texas school to offer Bible class

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Thanks Joe, but If I am forced to be honest, I made my own share of snide remarks on this thread. I may have felt provoked, but as WVRevy pointed out, I provoked right back and I am not proud of that.

We all have our limits (especially when provoked and see our religious beliefs or the religious beliefs of others insulted). Have a good day.

 

[wvrevy]

Just a note, and I mean this respectfully, Its just as frustrating for those of faith to encounter someone who doesn't beleive in faith and holds to that in the face of any agrument.

I snipped the rest because this is the most salient point of your argument. The simple fact is, there is no evidence - none, zip, nada, nothing - that "faith" does anything but provide an emotional crutch. Why should I, as a rational human being, set aside reason to embrace something that does not have any tangible basis in reality ? I can list dozens of reasons why faith in god is a waste of time, and the only argument against any of it is "I choose to believe". It's like saying that you don't agree that 2+2=4, so you'll just keep believing what you wish, despite any evidence to the contrary.

What's the difference between the bible and any other book from the same time period ? Other than, of course, the fact that the bible has been modified any number of times and in any number of ways since then, to fit the needs of the church ? What's the difference between it and any other work of historical fiction ?

The only answer to all of those questions is "faith". Faith that the book is the "word of god"...Faith that the changes made were divinely inspired...Faith. Not reason, not logic, not reality. Faith.

 

[swilphil]

I think we both agree that a course on any sacred text should not be taught as a religious validation of the text. A High School course on the Bible should never teach "Jesus died for your sins". I beleive it could and should teach something like "this verse is one of the reasons Christians beleive Jesus died for their sins". The goal is to learn about the beleifs of others, but not to endorse or disparage them.

I think we both feel that if the Bible is taught, other religious texts should also be examined. The only argument against this point would be to note that the dominant religion in this country is Christianity, and so if you only had resources to teach one sacred text, the Bible might be the best choice, since it teaches about the values of the largest segment of our culture. Still, this is VERY risky, as it might appear to be an endorsement of this text over others that could not be taught. Best probably to teach all the magor faiths or nothing. If I have my druthers, students would spend at least a year in comparative religions courses in high school, and advanced classes on each of the religious texts would be available, but I doubt that will ever happen.

Lastly, I think we both agree that the such course should never replace the teaching of any scientific theory.

I agree with your appeal to teach all major religions or nothing, but I do wonder if that might lead to some parents complaining that their children were exposed to religion beliefs that are in conflict with what they believe. That is currently what is going on right now in my state with the evolution vs. intelligent design debate. I have taught segments of the Bible, as well as religious writings from other faiths, in a literature class. I did choose my words very carefully to make sure I wasn't preaching and told students they could accept the Bible as fact or fiction, depending on their beliefs. I always worried that parents who believed in a very strict interpretation of the Bible might have a problem with this.

 

[ead79]

originally posted by wvrevy
I've always been a firm believer that, if you cannot defend your beliefs, then you need to re-examine them. I use a strong and, admittedly, somewhat condescending tone when I argue religion, simply because I really wish people would closely examine their most cherished beliefs and see the inconsistencies.

Not all believers blindly cling to faith as a crutch. Though I was raised in a Christian household, I had to examine my beliefs and decide for myself whether or not I believed. By nature I am a person who admittedly gets easily irritated with people who won’t examine their own beliefs. However, I think that a person can examine their beliefs and come to the conclusion that they are indeed true. You are correct when you say that this requires faith. There is no way to empirically prove that Jesus is Lord or that He paid the price for my sins. I have faith that it is true. My beliefs have been validated numerous times in my life, but you are correct when you say that I can’t prove it to you or anyone else. However, those of us who have faith are not all simpleminded, blind believers. I don’t see inconsistencies with my beliefs, but I’m sure that someone else might. I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers. I just wanted to make the point that my faith has been proven to me personally in very real ways. Though the first step of belief requires faith, believers often have experiences that validate these beliefs as they grow in their faith.

 

[ncgolfer]

The simple fact is, there is no evidence - none, zip, nada, nothing - that "faith" does anything but provide an emotional crutch.

Do you have evidence that is it only an emotional crutch?

 

[WDWHound]

I snipped the rest because this is the most salient point of your argument. The simple fact is, there is no evidence - none, zip, nada, nothing - that "faith" does anything but provide an emotional crutch. Why should I, as a rational human being, set aside reason to embrace something that does not have any tangible basis in reality ? I can list dozens of reasons why faith in god is a waste of time, and the only argument against any of it is "I choose to believe". It's like saying that you don't agree that 2+2=4, so you'll just keep believing what you wish, despite any evidence to the contrary.

What's the difference between the bible and any other book from the same time period ? Other than, of course, the fact that the bible has been modified any number of times and in any number of ways since then, to fit the needs of the church ? What's the difference between it and any other work of historical fiction ?

The only answer to all of those questions is "faith". Faith that the book is the "word of god"...Faith that the changes made were divinely inspired...Faith. Not reason, not logic, not reality. Faith.

(Note: in the following I present my own experience of faith. It is meant to try to explain what I experience to be true, not to convert others).

Your response is exactly what I was talking about and exactly what you accuse Christians of. You respond that in your way of viewing the world and by all you know Christianity and the Bible make no sense. Your response is to tell me all the reasons it can not be true. Have you ever tried looking at it with the premise of saying asking What if it were true, rather than start with why it cant be true?

Your premise that there is no evidence that faith lacks logic is incorrect.The problem I have is there is no scientific evidence, but I know the love I have experienced, I know the peace within that has come from God. I know the feeling of the presence of God. All of my evidence is internal, but ignoring it would be the height of illogic when it presents itself so powerfully to myself others who have experienced it.
Describing the realities I have found through faith is very much like describing music to a deaf person. I experience the melodys, I can tell a deaf person I expereince them, but they cant really know what I am talking about unless they can find a way to hear. If most of the world was deaf and I heard music, should I then say that music does not exist because the whole concept make no sense to most people and can not be observed by them? You tell me faith makes no sense, but I know the reality of the music I have learned to hear through faith. I can't pretend I don't hear it. I can't pretend it isnt real. To do so would be illogical.

As for the Bible, Yes, I beleive the Bible to be the word of God becuase of my expereinces from studying it and its impact on my life. Is it a litteral word for word quote of God? I don't think so. Has it been translated many times? Yes, but those translations don't vary as widely as some suggest and current translation try very hard to get back to the original texts. To answer you question of what makes it different, its hard to describe to a non-Christian, but it is possible to red tha book and have it speak to me more deeply than any other encient or current text I have read. I trust the book because it has proven itself trust worthy.

Again, if this sounds like I am trying to convert you, and I am not. I say these things only to try to explain the logic that I understand is not apparant to someone who has not experience the realitity that faith allows one to experience. I am telling you there is more beyond your world view that I have experienced (not just hoped for, not just had faith in, but experienced), but that it requires seriously considering what you consider impossible, that something that doesn't fit with your world view might be real. No I know the possiblity seems remote and no one has the time to openly consider every remote, fantastic possibility that exists. All you have is my word and the word of billions of others that it might be worth your while to at least consider it. I think it makes it worth at least considering. We ask you only to do what you ask of us, consider a possiblity that flies in the face of what you know and a have experienced.

 

[wvrevy]

Not all believers blindly cling to faith as a crutch. Though I was raised in a Christian household, I had to examine my beliefs and decide for myself whether or not I believed. By nature I am a person who admittedly gets easily irritated with people who won’t examine their own beliefs. However, I think that a person can examine their beliefs and come to the conclusion that they are indeed true. You are correct when you say that this requires faith. There is no way to empirically prove that Jesus is Lord or that He paid the price for my sins. I have faith that it is true. My beliefs have been validated numerous times in my life, but you are correct when you say that I can’t prove it to you or anyone else. However, those of us who have faith are not all simpleminded, blind believers. I don’t see inconsistencies with my beliefs, but I’m sure that someone else might. I certainly don’t claim to have all the answers. I just wanted to make the point that my faith has been proven to me personally in very real ways. Though the first step of belief requires faith, believers often have experiences that validate these beliefs as they grow in their faith.

Are you familiar with the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy ? I view "personal evidence" such as what you're speaking of in much the same light. You believe that good things will happen for you if you put your faith in god, so if something good happens, you feel as if your belief has been justified. That would be fine...if it weren't for the fact that it only works randomly. When bad things happen, do you then question that faith ? Of course not. You "submit to God's plan".

"Personal evidence" is nothing more (in my opinion, so please don't take offense) than self delusion. You believe it, there-by strengthening your broader faith. It's circular logic.

Do you have evidence that is it only an emotional crutch?

Sure...As soon as you show me how to prove a negative, I'll be glad to provide it. Until then, I'll continue to say that the burden of proof is on the side making wild, unsubstantiated claims of the paranormal.

 

[WDWHound]

Sure...As soon as you show me how to prove a negative, I'll be glad to provide it. Until then, I'll continue to say that the burden of proof is on the side making wild, unsubstantiated claims of the paranormal.

And our response is that the only proof is the experience. So, what then is the harm in investigating if the experience is real? If you try to drop your preconceptions, look beyond what you have experienced to be real (which again is EXACTLY what you are asking people of faith to do), you will either find something or nothing. If you find nothing, than your beleifs are strengthened. If you find something, than you have found a new dimension to your world. I don't see a way to lose here.

 

[ncgolfer]

Are you familiar with the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy ? I view "personal evidence" such as what you're speaking of in much the same light. You believe that good things will happen for you if you put your faith in god, so if something good happens, you feel as if your belief has been justified. That would be fine...if it weren't for the fact that it only works randomly. When bad things happen, do you then question that faith ? Of course not. You "submit to God's plan".

No your incorrect in your assumptions as to what I do. I have found that since I became a christian person, I have had more problems, questions, experiences that I would consider negative than before. Do I questions God and my faith when these things happen. I absolutely do. Every time I question I still come back to the same conclusion. So there is all the evidence I have. You have no more evidence to prove my wrong as I have to prove me right.

 

[wvrevy]

And our response is that the only proof is the experience. So, what then is the harm in investigating if the experience is real? If you try to drop your preconceptions, look beyond what you have experienced to be real (which again is EXACTLY what you are asking people of faith to do), you will either find something or nothing. If you find nothing, than your beleifs are strengthened. If you find something, than you have found a new dimension to your world. I don't see a way to lose here.

So in other words, I should abandon all logic, ignore everything I know about psychology and emotional response, ignore any and all inconsistancies, ignore everything I literally loathe about the way religion is often used...and just try to "feel" something ?

Sorry, but I don't think I've got that in me.

I was raised in the Catholic church. Eventually, I grew up and quit looking for an outside source to answer my wishes and take care of my problems. I rely on myself and those I trust and care for, and that's it. I don't need a mystical / mythical being to help me solve my problems, or to make me feel better about anything. Nor do I want to attempt to fall back under that particular delusion.

We're never going to agree on this Hound...The way I see it is that you will never see reason, and I refuse not to....and I'm sure you see it in the exact opposite way. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[ead79]

BTW, that last quote wasn’t mine. I think ncgolfer said it a few pages back.

Are you familiar with the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy ? I view "personal evidence" such as what you're speaking of in much the same light. You believe that good things will happen for you if you put your faith in god, so if something good happens, you feel as if your belief has been justified. That would be fine...if it weren't for the fact that it only works randomly. When bad things happen, do you then question that faith ? Of course not. You "submit to God's plan".

"Personal evidence" is nothing more (in my opinion, so please don't take offense) than self delusion. You believe it, there-by strengthening your broader faith. It's circular logic.

I understand completely what you’re saying about circular logic, and no offense taken. To explain my beliefs a little better (I can only speak of my own experience, so that’s what I’m trying to do), I don’t believe that “good things will happen for me” if I put my faith in God, at least not on this side of heaven (of course I understand that you don’t believe heaven exists, but as I said I can only explain my beliefs). In other words, I don’t see having faith in God as a way to have a life that’s a bowl of cherries. Bad things happen to everyone—Christians, atheists, Hindus, etc. My faith does not prevent bad things from happening to me, but it does help me to cope with them. I understand that you see such coping as a crutch, but for me it is very real and very personal (just as Hound described). Further, I do sometimes question my faith when bad things happen. God can take it; He knows we will question Him. The way I see it, He already knows that I don’t understand why bad things happen, so I just admit it to Him. Sometimes I get angry with Him, and I let Him know that too. That doesn’t mean that when something bad happens I forsake my beliefs. Quite the opposite actually tends to be true. As horrific and difficult as some things we must experience can be, I find that it is often those very things that have molded me into the person I am today. I often grow the most through difficulties. Throughout history, people have been murdered for their belief in Christ (obviously, people of other religions have been persecuted as well), so choosing to keep the faith is not always the easy thing to do.

Also, a defining moment that helped reinforce my beliefs had nothing to do with my own personal feelings. I’d prefer not to go into the story on the boards, but suffice it to say that a total stranger reinforced my beliefs. Not all events that reinforce beliefs are emotional “spiritual high” experiences.

 

[WDWHound]

No your incorrect in your assumptions as to what I do. I have found that since I became a christian person, I have had more problems, questions, experiences that I would consider negative than before. Do I questions God and my faith when these things happen. I absolutely do. Every time I question I still come back to the same conclusion.

I agree. The suffering and bad things MUST be viewed in context of faith and most Christians. It presents very real questions and forces us to examine everything we know. However, most Christians can also tell they can feel the strength of God as they go through challenging times. Faith is not without its paradoxes, but that doesn't make the experience less real.

But again, what you are doing is trying to explain why it cant be so. All we ask is that you really consider how it might be so and then examine your conclusions, whatever they may be.

 

[WDWHound]

So in other words, I should abandon all logic, ignore everything I know about psychology and emotional response, ignore any and all inconsistancies, ignore everything I literally loathe about the way religion is often used...and just try to "feel" something ?

Sorry, but I don't think I've got that in me.

I was raised in the Catholic church. Eventually, I grew up and quit looking for an outside source to answer my wishes and take care of my problems. I rely on myself and those I trust and care for, and that's it. I don't need a mystical / mythical being to help me solve my problems, or to make me feel better about anything. Nor do I want to attempt to fall back under that particular delusion.

We're never going to agree on this Hound...The way I see it is that you will never see reason, and I refuse not to....and I'm sure you see it in the exact opposite way. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I agree we willl probably never agree, but I just want to clarify what I am asking of you. I am not asking you to try to feel (the reality I am discussing is more than a feeling anyway, but thats real tough to explain). I am not asking you to search fo a diety to solve your problems (which, BTW, is not the way I experience faith). I ask only that you think about the possiblity that what we experience is real, even if you don't agree that its possible. Thats it, just think about it. Thats all I ask. Dont try to prove or disprove, just think about it. If you wont even do that, than you really have no right be frusrated when Christians don't make the effort to consider the possiblity that your view is correct.

With that, it is time to end this. I happily agree to disagree and will do my best to consider what you have had to say.