Texas school to offer Bible class

[momof2inPA]

I think people have a hard time that Jews get bothered by the Torah and OT getting lumped together as the samething.. Imagine if a few hundred years from now, some group takes your New Testament,Adopts it as their own, changes the Christian understanding of it , forms a new religion based on it gives it a new name and claims that you (Christians ) don't know how to read it and understand it the way it's meant to be understood. To top that all off. They add a new book too it and call it a fulfilment of your books and then tell you your own religion(christianity) is obsolete

Note..I know no one on this thread has said that,but these are pretty much things that have been said to jews for millenia now

Off topic, but I have had Jewish people tell me that Christians don't know how to read and understand the Old Testament the way that it should be read/understood. I guess it's a new millenia.

 

[DisDuck]

Thanks Jenny.. You said what I feel in a lot less and more to the point words. We have to figure out a way to get together next week. My problem is the commuting back and forth to Tampa as I pack up my daughter, coordinating it with her finals.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Off topic, but I have had Jewish people tell me that Christians don't know how to read and understand the Old Testament the way that it should be read/understood. I guess it's a new millenia.

Mom,That would be fair...I don't doubt that There are Jews who will tell you you read the OT wrong..It's a very simple fact that there are differences between the 2. I'm not prepared to argue who'se right. When they start doing all the other things mentioned also,then you can compare fairly.
If you are going to compare a couple hundred years of Morman relationships with other Christians to that of 2000 years of Jewish-Christian relations then I'm going to assume you don't know a whole lot about the history between Jews and Christians

 

[momof2inPA]

Mom,That would be fair...I don't doubt that There are Jews who will tell you you read the OT wrong..It's a very simple fact that there are differences between the 2. I'm not prepared to argue who'se right. When they start doing all the other things mentioned also,then you can compare fairly

You mean, like the Mormons have? I don't feel any animosity towards them.

 

[pamlet]

I think people have a hard time that Jews get bothered by the Torah and OT getting lumped together as the samething.. Imagine if a few hundred years from now, some group takes your New Testament,Adopts it as their own, changes the Christian understanding of it , forms a new religion based on it gives it a new name and claims that you (Christians ) don't know how to read it and understand it the way it's meant to be understood. To top that all off. They add a new book too it and call it a fulfilment of your books and then tell you your own religion(christianity) is obsolete

Note..I know no one on this thread has said that,but these are pretty much things that have been said to jews for millenia now

Actually that has happened in Christianity - Mormonism is the most obvious that comes to mind. And some hardline Protestant's would say Catholicism as well.

I do understand the concern - I was always taught the difference between the Torah ( or as I was taught the Pentatuch /sp/) and the "rest" of the OT. I think it may depend on the depth of study of a particular Christian group.

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

They had a Bible class in my high school taught as a history class. Actually, the teacher that taught it was an agnostic. It was an elective class not mandatory. So the people taking it were taking it by choice. Hmmm....yes that's terrible that kids would want to take a bible history class in order to gain a perspective on the Christian religion. And for the record,the syllabus included sections on Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism.

 

[JennyMominRI]

You mean, like the Mormons have? I don't feel any animosity towards them.

The Mormons haven't done all of the above.. The book of Mormon is an assitional book..It doesn't state that Christianity is fulfilled in that book,or that the NT is wrong and misunderstood..They don't call the NT by some other name and claim that (you) can't understand it properly.
I can't belive you are even willing to compare the relationship between Mormans and other Christians to that of Christians and Jews..

 

[WDWHound]

WDW.. The Torah(Pentatach) is our 'bible'. Other books like The Book of Esther are stories of events in our history. The Talmud can be considered commentaries on The Torah. So while christians might include 'everything' under one title, OT, it would be incorrect to actual think that this is what is used in our service. For a complete picture there is also a 'book' called The Haftorah which is also commentary on the Torah which is read as part of the Shabbos service (saturday). Since Jenny is going thru conversion classes she can probable give a clearer explanation of the differences. Bottomline thou is there is only one 'bible' The Torah.

I think we may be trying to say the same thing in some ways. The definition I sited were not from Christians sources, but Jewish ones. I know that all the books in what we call the Old Testament are not used in your services, but it is my understanding that these collection of the books is often reffered to as the Torah. The following is quoted from The Jewish Virtual Library and can be found at this link

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Written_Law.html

The word "Torah" has the following meanings:

1. A scroll made from kosher animal parchment, with the entire text of the Five Books of Moses written in it by a sofer [ritual scribe]. This is the most limited definition.

2. More often, this term means the text of the Five Books of Moses, written in any format, whether Torah scroll, paperback book, CD*ROM, sky*writing or any other media. Any printed version of the Torah (with or without commentary) can be called a Chumash or Pentateuch; however, one never refers to a Torah Scroll as a Chumash.

3. The term "Torah" can mean the entire corpus of Jewish law. This includes the Written and the Oral Law, which includes the Mishna, the Midrash, the Talmud and even later day legal commentaries. This definition of Torah is probably the most common among Orthodox Jews. Usually you can figure out which definition is being used by the context.

My point here is not to disagree with your definition of the word, for it is the primary one, but to point out that there is secondary defintion that equates to what we call the Old Testament (Torah and Tanakh).

 

[JennyMominRI]

I think we may be trying to say the same thing in some ways. The definition I sited were not from Christians sources, but Jewish ones. I know that all the books in what we call the Old Testament are not used in your services, but it is my understanding that these collection of the books is often reffered to as the Torah. The following is quoted from The Jewish Virtual Library and can be found at this link

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/The_Written_Law.html

That'a great source. I use it all the time.. fTR,I heard the word Torah used in the way you describe,to cover the whole of Jewish writings..IT's sort of like the difference between Catholic and Catholic..One meaning is very specific and one in a more general less common usage

 

[LoraJ]

I am honesetly sick to death (not directed at one person) of those who claim to be liberal but are so dang judgemental and intolerant of people who are religious. These people are just as close minded and cruel to those they claim are the intolerant ones.

Makes no sense to me at all!!!!!

I don't think anyone is intollerant of anyone's religion. It's just when you refer to the Bible when making laws. i.e. We can't let gays marry because the Bible says blah blah blah. You can believe what you want, just don't force your beliefs on others.

 

[golfgal]

In recent years people have misconstrued the true meaning of separation of church and state. It was not meant to totally abolish any religious reference in anything "public". It was originally designed to prevent states from requiring people to practice a certain religion. It does NOT mean there can't be religious classes in schools. What it DOES mean is that the school can't require students to take that class. Same thing with prayer in school, which has been upheld by the Supreme Court; you can pray all you want in schools, schools can even offer a time for prayer, they just can't require students to participate. The term is "Freedom OF Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion". It means people can choose their religion or lack there of, nothing more, nothing less. If a school is offering a "Christmas" program and that goes against your belief, then you have every right not to participate, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in the school.

People are going OVERBOARD preventing ANYTHING that resembles ANYTHING Christian in public places, schools mostly, when the MAJORITY of the people in the US are Christian. Since our country was founded on the simple policy of MAJORITY rule, I am really surprised there haven't been some reverse discrimination lawsuits.

Don't believe in God, fine, that is your choice AND a freedom granted by our Constitution, but look around and 9 out of 10 people around you DO believe in God, so what makes YOUR belief system, or lack there of, MORE important that those other 9 people around you?????????

 

[HomeSweetDisney]

In recent years people have misconstrued the true meaning of separation of church and state. It was not meant to totally abolish any religious reference in anything "public". It was originally designed to prevent states from requiring people to practice a certain religion. It does NOT mean there can't be religious classes in schools. What it DOES mean is that the school can't require students to take that class. Same thing with prayer in school, which has been upheld by the Supreme Court; you can pray all you want in schools, schools can even offer a time for prayer, they just can't require students to participate. The term is "Freedom OF Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion". It means people can choose their religion or lack there of, nothing more, nothing less. If a school is offering a "Christmas" program and that goes against your belief, then you have every right not to participate, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in the school.

People are going OVERBOARD preventing ANYTHING that resembles ANYTHING Christian in public places, schools mostly, when the MAJORITY of the people in the US are Christian. Since our country was founded on the simple policy of MAJORITY rule, I am really surprised there haven't been some reverse discrimination lawsuits.

Don't believe in God, fine, that is your choice AND a freedom granted by our Constitution, but look around and 9 out of 10 people around you DO believe in God, so what makes YOUR belief system, or lack there of, MORE important that those other 9 people around you?????????

Well things are so PC these days. Now the majority is made to bow down to the minority. But I completely agree with you. I don't get it but I'm sure someone will be lovely enough to enlighten me

 

[LoraJ]

Well I don't care if there is some sort of Bible class taught in public schools as long as it is historical and not preachy and comparitive to other religions. If you want to learn the Bible the way your religion sees it, that is what Sunday school is for. I highly doubt at most public high schools that everyone in that class would be of the same exact religion. Sure they may all be Christians, but each denomination has different beliefs.

 

[JennyMominRI]

In recent years people have misconstrued the true meaning of separation of church and state. It was not meant to totally abolish any religious reference in anything "public". It was originally designed to prevent states from requiring people to practice a certain religion. It does NOT mean there can't be religious classes in schools. What it DOES mean is that the school can't require students to take that class. Same thing with prayer in school, which has been upheld by the Supreme Court; you can pray all you want in schools, schools can even offer a time for prayer, they just can't require students to participate. The term is "Freedom OF Religion" not "Freedom FROM Religion". It means people can choose their religion or lack there of, nothing more, nothing less. If a school is offering a "Christmas" program and that goes against your belief, then you have every right not to participate, but that doesn't mean it can't happen in the school.

People are going OVERBOARD preventing ANYTHING that resembles ANYTHING Christian in public places, schools mostly, when the MAJORITY of the people in the US are Christian. Since our country was founded on the simple policy of MAJORITY rule, I am really surprised there haven't been some reverse discrimination lawsuits.

Don't believe in God, fine, that is your choice AND a freedom granted by our Constitution, but look around and 9 out of 10 people around you DO believe in God, so what makes YOUR belief system, or lack there of, MORE important that those other 9 people around you?????????

a couple comments... This coutry was also founded on the idea that the rights of the minority to be protected from the tyranny of the Majority.
As to your 9 out of 10 comment..It's probably more like 8 out of 10..Most schools also have Jews and Muslims in them and many of the Jews that I know want religion kept out of schools.period.
LAst of all,I know MANY Christians who want all religions references kept out of school..

 

[WDWHound]

I think people have a hard time that Jews get bothered by the Torah and OT getting lumped together as the samething.. Imagine if a few hundred years from now, some group takes your New Testament,Adopts it as their own, changes the Christian understanding of it , forms a new religion based on it gives it a new name and claims that you (Christians ) don't know how to read it and understand it the way it's meant to be understood. To top that all off. They add a new book too it and call it a fulfilment of your books and then tell you your own religion(christianity) is obsolete

Note..I know no one on this thread has said that,but these are pretty much things that have been said to jews for millenia now

Look at Islam. Muslims interpret both the New Testament and the Torah completely differently do and are very oen about saying that Jew's (in the case of the Torah) and Christians interpret them incorrectly. They also claim that there are mistakes in both the Torah and the New testament that they have since corrected. They also added another book (The Koran).

I think they are wrong, just as DISDuck disagrees with my interpretation of of the Torah and Tanakh, but I am not insulted or even annoyed by their interpretation, or by their addition of what they feel is an additional sacred text.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

zippa.. while I was being sarcastic in many of your posts there is a definite impression that 'christian' values are more important than other values, ie. without religion, in particular christian, there would be no morals. So if that is not the impression you wish to leave then be more specific in word usage. Particularly in an online chat thread, inflection and body language is impossible to discerne so words can be misintepreted if not specific enough. I try to be which leads to be 'rambling' at times as I want to make my positions as clear as possible.

So what are morals (what is right and wrong) based on? If not on God/religious beliefs, then what? An ealier poster said the Bible is just "moralistic faiy tales."

If each person in the world individually decides what it right and wrong, then what is moral? If what is moral is decided by a group with common beliefs, is that group considered to be a religion?

 

[WDWHound]

Well I don't care if there is some sort of Bible class taught in public schools as long as it is historical and not preachy and comparitive to other religions. If you want to learn the Bible the way your religion sees it, that is what Sunday school is for. I highly doubt at most public high schools that everyone in that class would be of the same exact religion. Sure they may all be Christians, but each denomination has different beliefs.

I think this is the main point. The understanding of religions (ALL religions) should be taught in school, but no attempt should be made to raise one over another or "convert" or initate anyone to a relgion. The goal should be understand what others beleive and not arguing that any specific belief is correct.

 

[momof2inPA]

The Mormons haven't done all of the above.. The book of Mormon is an assitional book..It doesn't state that Christianity is fulfilled in that book,or that the NT is wrong and misunderstood..They don't call the NT by some other name and claim that (you) can't understand it properly.
I can't belive you are even willing to compare the relationship between Mormans and other Christians to that of Christians and Jews..

Any religion believes that their scripture is "it" or "the truth." I don't think most Christians nowadays think that Jews are misled or misunderstanding. It's a different belief system. Mormons may have a similar belief system to the rest of Christianity, but in practice, the life of a devout Mormon is as different from a Christian's life as a Christian's life is different from a non-traditional Jew.

 

[golfgal]

a couple comments... This coutry was also founded on the idea that the rights of the minority to be protected from the tyranny of the Majority.
As to your 9 out of 10 comment..It's probably more like 8 out of 10..Most schools also have Jews and Muslims in them and many of the Jews that I know want religion kept out of schools.period.
LAst of all,I know MANY Christians who want all religions references kept out of school..

Jewish people believe in God and my stats are correct 90+% of Americans believe in God.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I don't think anyone is intollerant of anyone's religion. It's just when you refer to the Bible when making laws. i.e. We can't let gays marry because the Bible says blah blah blah. You can believe what you want, just don't force your beliefs on others.

So what "blah, blah, blah," says it ok to have gays marry. Why is there a restriction on multiple wives or husbands? Whose morals is that?

I think having a Bible class as an elective class in public schools is a great idea. It is an integral part of our nation's history and belief system.