Tax return is nearly $3000 LESS because I worked part-time last year!

[luvsJack]

Are we really going to compare GM, a company that some say is responsible for 1 million US jobs, to a crack addict? Right now, that $50B investment into GM looks like one of the better, maybe THE best, moves by the Obama administration..

First they are garbage and now they are all crack addicts? Really? Most welfare recipients are far and away from being crack addicts or garbage. See, here is our problem. You are looking at this through your prejudice, me as someone who has been there and done that and still see and work with students every day that are on welfare.

As for GM, maybe they should have stopped a few of those bonuses their big cats were walking away with every year and they could have helped themselves. They should have known better.

 

[rubato]

You still haven't answered what happens when people DON'T GIVE TO THE NONPROFITS. I guess folks relying on the nonprofits for food & shelter just go hungry and live under a freeway?

And, unfortunately, we already have so many who are forgotten and living this way. My stepson works with a homeless outreach program. It's his job to go and find the homeless and try to get them back on the grid, working and eating and having a place to live. He lost all his government funding this year. All of it. Now, they are working with half staff and doing it through grants.

Again, I know there is abuse, but we need to try to help our people out. I'd rather spend money on the poor American people and not go to war, when it's avoidable.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Sounds great, but they still have the choice not to give. Not everyone is going to and we will be back at square one.

You mean people will have to go get a job? and the rest of us will be paying less taxes?

 

[HHSTigerFan]

First they are garbage and now they are all crack addicts? Really? Most welfare recipients are far and away from being crack addicts. See, here is our problem. You are looking at this through your prejudice, me as someone who has been there and done that and still see and work with students every day that are on welfare.

As for GM, maybe they should have stopped a few of those bonuses their big cats were walking away with every year and they could have helped themselves. They should have known better.

Never said they were all crack addicts, you saying NONE are?

GM's bigger problem was the unions for their regular employees, not a few bonuses a few people at the top rec'd, but its always easier to blame the hated wealthy, isn't it?

 

[luvsJack]

no she wants a laptop so she can talk to baby daddy who is going back to jail again for stealing checks. her mom watches her daughter, we the people pay for her apartment, food, and medical care.. oh and the laptop. I really dont mind paying for her apartment or her food that much, but a laptop is a want. she has no plans to get off the welfare train.

Ahhh, well that is a horse of another color. There are those that really do need that shove off of the welfare rolls and into the workforce, that I don't deny. Sounds like she needs to be given the skills to be able to work for a living wage and then pushed into finding a job.

 

[ohlas]

Sounds great, but they still have the choice not to give. Not everyone is going to and we will be back at square one.

there are always going to be poor people. there are always going to be people that need the basics, housing, food and min clothing.

the government isnt just giving out the basics anymore they are giving out free laptops, bonuses to top management etc etc. waste waste. and as a citizen that pays for small portion of this im getting really sick of it.

 

[luvsJack]

You mean people will have to go get a job? and the rest of us will be paying less taxes?

Again, they need the skills to get those jobs and it is going to take MORE money in the system to get them those skills. And, of course, there has to actually BE jobs to get.

Never said they were all crack addicts, you saying NONE are?

GM's bigger problem was the unions for their regular employees, not a few bonuses a few people at the top rec'd, but its always easier to blame the hated wealthy, isn't it?

WHERE did I say "none"? Of course there are some. And I think mandatory drug testing for people on government assistance is a great idea. It would keep the addicts off the money, lead some to get help and keep kids from having to live with an addict. win-win

I don't hate the wealthy. Its the greedy I have an issue with. And, please, do not go on to me about how "hard" they worked. Show me where one of them worked harder than the folks in the GM plants and I will reconsider their deserving of the bonuses and the conferences in the Bahamas or whereever it was.

 

[fakereadhed]

You still haven't answered what happens when people DON'T GIVE TO THE NONPROFITS. I guess folks relying on the nonprofits for food & shelter just go hungry and live under a freeway?

It's called compassion. Yep, not everybody has it. Not everyone will give and take care of their own friends, family, and neighbors but plenty continue to do so without being told to by the government.

Look at Americans giving to Haiti, Make-a-wish, Ronald McDonald House, etc. Donations are down right now, but people are giving even in these hard times. My son goes to a private Christian school. If there's a family who is out of work due to illness like cancer an email goes out and people step up. It's called taking care of your own fellow man and church and private organizations have been doing a better job of it than the govt for years. We have known people that have been addicted to drugs or alcohol and homeless who are now clean, working, and reunited with their families thru Salvation Army. It can be done!

 

[luvsJack]

You mean people will have to go get a job? and the rest of us will be paying less taxes?

Again, they need the skills to get those jobs and it is going to take MORE money in the system to get them those skills. And, of course, there has to actually BE jobs to get.

Never said they were all crack addicts, you saying NONE are?

GM's bigger problem was the unions for their regular employees, not a few bonuses a few people at the top rec'd, but its always easier to blame the hated wealthy, isn't it?

WHERE did I say "none"? Of course there are some. And I think mandatory drug testing for people on government assistance is a great idea. It would keep the addicts off the money, lead some to get help and keep kids from having to live with an addict. win-win BTW, they are not garbage either. They are living, breathing human beings.

I don't hate the wealthy. Its the greedy I have an issue with. And, please, do not go on to me about how "hard" they worked. Show me where one of them worked harder than the folks in the GM plants and I will reconsider their deserving of the bonuses and the conferences in the Bahamas or where ever it was.

 

[daughtersrus]

GM's bigger problem was the unions for their regular employees, not a few bonuses a few people at the top rec'd, but its always easier to blame the hated wealthy, isn't it?

It's easy to blame the regular workers. Take the amount of bonuses that are paid to executives and divide it by the average "regular" employee's salary and what to you get?

I guess that I'm not understanding the logic that it's OK to use taxpayer money to fund huge bonuses for executives that are responsible for the company's financial problems but be against helping those that are not able to work or find work.

 

[HHSTigerFan]

Again, they need the skills to get those jobs and it is going to take MORE money in the system to get them those skills. And, of course, there has to actually BE jobs to get.


I don't hate the wealthy. Its the greedy I have an issue with. And, please, do not go on to me about how "hard" they worked. Show me where one of them worked harder than the folks in the GM plants and I will reconsider their deserving of the bonuses and the conferences in the Bahamas or whereever it was.

I worked my way thru college, parents made too much money and I rec'd no financial aid.. My wife grew up quite poor, she too worked, took out loans, had a few scholarships.. It can be done, just requires hard work..

I would be willing to bet that the exec people at GM worked a heck of a lot more than 40 hours per week during their years at GM..

 

[HHSTigerFan]

It's easy to blame the regular workers. Take the amount of bonuses that are paid to executives and divide it by the average "regular" employee's salary and what to you get?

I guess that I'm not understanding the logic that it's OK to use taxpayer money to fund huge bonuses for executives that are responsible for the company's financial problems but be against helping those that are not able to work or find work.

Are you not aware that if GM went under that about 1 million US citizens would have lost their jobs? Conditions of the bailout were that these bonus payments to the executives would end.. I am my no means an Obama fan, but the auto bailout was a great move..

What I am saying in the first part is that the UAW had a bigger part in forcing GM into BK than bonus's paid to a handful of people at the top... sort of $10K to 250000 people is more money than $1M to 10 people..

 

[ccgirl]

I bet most people that dislike the EIC, would also be in favor of ending Social Security, I know I would.. Let me invest that money myself, would do a heck of a lot better!

Yup...I pay in so much money and won't see a dime of it. I would much rather put MY money in MY IRA for MY retirement.

A fair wage is what's average, expected, appropriate for the work you're doing. A low-skill job (like fast food) should pay less because the worker brings essentially no unique skills to the job; he isn't all that valuable to his employer since anyone could do his job. On the other hand, a person who has an investment in education, who has experience and/or leadership or management skills is more valuable to his employer -- he can demand a higher wage.Yeah, I'm not getting the point either. I think we all know that 150K is more than 75K -- even with a higher tax rate. What I don't see is why people who pay NO taxes should get a portion of someone else's taxes refunded to them.If you received a large raise last year, you're not the EIC target audience. The workers in question are those who are low-paid; FOR THEM making a little more money takes away their government benefit -- for people in this situation, it IS an incentive NOT to work.

So replace the words "college degree" with "job training".

Everyone isn't academic, but everyone needs SOME training beyond high school. Those who don't flourish in the classroom may do very well in beauty school, bricklaying class, etc. We teach some excellent vocational classes in our high school, and students can leave fully qualified to get an entry-level job in the electrical field, working as mechanics, as CNAs, etc. College isn't the only path to a better-than-minimum-wage job, but few people today will be really successful with ONLY high school under their belts.While I know plenty of people my age and older who've done quite well for themselves with just high school, I think it's becoming harder and harder. I'm thinking specifically about a friend of mine (without a degree) who works as an executive secretary (she probably makes more than I do with my degree). She tells her kids all the time, "Look, I am doing well for myself only because of the years I've put in. I can't leave and go somewhere else without a degree. And YOU in your generation wouldn't be able to get your foot in the door of my job without a degree. You need more than I have."

And she's dead right. A bachelor's degree may not be the right route for everyone, but few of our children's generation will go beyond an average paycheck without more than a high school diploma. I'm not negating your comment about work ethic -- that's absolutely true too -- but I don't think hard work in and of itself is "enough" anymore. I also am certain I could manage my SS money better than the government is doing. I think the very same thing about it as I think about EIC: I don't blame the individuals who are currently collecting SS payments -- they paid in, they deserve to get out -- but I do blame the government for creating an un-sustainable system. Keep in mind that our idea of "necessity" has vastly increased over the last couple decades.

For example, one of my grandmother's "family home" was a three-room house (note, I didn't say three bedroom house!). Her parents slept in the living room. They had a kitchen and a dining room, each dedicated to their respective tasks. The EIGHT kids slept in the attic, which was accessed though a ladder in the dining room. They were MIDDLE CLASS KIDS, kids of a farmer who owned several hundred acres. Several of them went on to two-year college. Incidentally, she was born in 1913 -- not quite 100 years ago.

Fast forward a generation. My father-in-law (and his two siblings) were raised in a two-bedroom house. One bedroom for the parents, one bedroom for the two boys and their sister.

Fast forward one more generation to my own family: We didn't have air conditioning. We kids all worked in the vegetable garden and canned produce. My mom traded kids hand-me-downs with our aunts. All our shorts were cut-off jeans. We had two pair of shoes at all times: One pair of dress shoes for church, one pair of tennis shoes. We shared bedrooms, but not with siblings of the opposite sex. We ate out every few months.

So what's necessary? Where's the dividing point? The necessity line is surely not where it's set today: Cell phones for everyone middle-school aged and up, a personal car for everyone old enough to drive, etc. I'm sure some people genuinely NEED to incomes literally for food on the table, and others NEED the two incomes because of past debt, but MANY could afford to let go of one income IF they were willing to live like people did just one generation ago.

This is a great, well thought out post. I guess my fair wage I really meant to say cost of living wage. Our society has really become a "want" based society rather than a "need" based society. Do I have to work, no. However, I WANT to work so I can provide the private education, vacations, 3 BR home, cars, steak and lobster etc. Do I NEED to wor? NO. If I didn't work, we would not live in our home, we would live in an apartment. We would not have the vehicles we do, my DD would not attend private school and we would not eat steak and lobster or go on expensive vacations. However, we would have a roof over our head (apartment), food on the table (even if it's just pasta). It is about choices.

why would you have 8-9 children if you cannt pay your bills???

Bingo!!!! I understand the temporary hardships. But, I do not want to pay for some baby factory. I hear a lot of people saying most want to get off welfare. However, I drive by the projects on the way home everyday and see something very different. I have lived in those very same projects and heard the people that wanted to have 1 more child so they could get more money. I understand some people do want to get off welfare. There needs to be some form of auditing and it needs to be for a set amount of time. Not for a lifetime. Sorry, but I made $9.75 an hour at McDonald's 20 years ago. I believe they are at least $11 an hour now. I know of apartments (2BR) for $600 - $800 a month. Would it be easy...now. Could you make it work - yes. And, if you can't you get another job! I see many Help Wanted signs all over the place here.

there are always going to be poor people. there are always going to be people that need the basics, housing, food and min clothing.

the government isnt just giving out the basics anymore they are giving out free laptops, bonuses to top management etc etc. waste waste. and as a citizen that pays for small portion of this im getting really sick of it.

This. The gov't should provide basics. Anything else should have to be worked for.

I worked my way thru college, parents made too much money and I rec'd no financial aid.. My wife grew up quite poor, she too worked, took out loans, had a few scholarships.. It can be done, just requires hard work..

I would be willing to bet that the exec people at GM worked a heck of a lot more than 40 hours per week during their years at GM..

This..this...this. I get so upset when I hear people say that others can't go to college because it is too "hard" to be able to afford it. Load of BS. I grew up in the projects...took 10 years to get a 4 year degree. I had to go to school for a semester then work for a semester so I could afford it. As I said before, if you want something bad enough you will achieve it. But, don't make excuses about why you can't have something when you just don't try hard enough. I realize some don't have the mental capacity or will to go to college. As others have said; there is job training available.

 

[kamik86]

I haven't read the last few pages again yet but this reminds me of an idea I had that although I doubt would ever happen would be really cool.... I want to see what other people think.

I think Welfare and all these assistance programs should be work programs. The government is paying them anyway so why not get something out of it.

The only exception obviously is disability, since that is assistance to those that CANT work. For everything else you go to work. When you apply your also applying for a job. Those with very little skills will be used for things like cleaning parks and government buildings, those that have skills but fallen on hard times (construction) may be used in their field. Oh and you can apply for some spots in each type that will be open to teaching you to do that type of job. That way you learn new skills.

Can't do this because you have kids?? Oh well we will provide child care, those that are qualified to care for children will have that "job".

This job will pay slightly below what the normal "minimum" is for this type of position. This way you have incentive to work up.

This way we get better roads, cleaner parks, don't pay people for what they aren't doing (thus the government is saving money on cleaning staff for their buildings etc since they now are using the peopel they are already paying anyway for this stuff!!)

Oh one thing you can always get off work for is a job interview. We don't want people working so much on this "plan" that they don't have time to get a better job!

 

[ohlas]

It's easy to blame the regular workers. Take the amount of bonuses that are paid to executives and divide it by the average "regular" employee's salary and what to you get?

I guess that I'm not understanding the logic that it's OK to use taxpayer money to fund huge bonuses for executives that are responsible for the company's financial problems but be against helping those that are not able to work or find work.

Its not ok and its not the governments right to do that either. Its not the governments right to play wealth redistribution but they do. The federal government is too big for their own good. We really need to start cutting lots of spending, before we all fall down. If middle america falls down whos going to pay for the poor then? Then the top 1% will be paying for 99% hahaha have you see videos of the great depression.

 

[fakereadhed]

I haven't read the last few pages again yet but this reminds me of an idea I had that although I doubt would ever happen would be really cool.... I want to see what other people think.

I think Welfare and all these assistance programs should be work programs. The government is paying them anyway so why not get something out of it.

The only exception obviously is disability, since that is assistance to those that CANT work. For everything else you go to work. When you apply your also applying for a job. Those with very little skills will be used for things like cleaning parks and government buildings, those that have skills but fallen on hard times (construction) may be used in their field. Oh and you can apply for some spots in each type that will be open to teaching you to do that type of job. That way you learn new skills.

Can't do this because you have kids?? Oh well we will provide child care, those that are qualified to care for children will have that "job".

This job will pay slightly below what the normal "minimum" is for this type of position. This way you have incentive to work up.

This way we get better roads, cleaner parks, don't pay people for what they aren't doing (thus the government is saving money on cleaning staff for their buildings etc since they now are using the peopel they are already paying anyway for this stuff!!)

Oh one thing you can always get off work for is a job interview. We don't want people working so much on this "plan" that they don't have time to get a better job!

That would never work! Not because it's not a good idea, because entitlements aren't meant to really help people get a leg up. They are designed to create a dependant block of voters to support the government.

 

[ohlas]

I haven't read the last few pages again yet but this reminds me of an idea I had that although I doubt would ever happen would be really cool.... I want to see what other people think.

I think Welfare and all these assistance programs should be work programs. The government is paying them anyway so why not get something out of it.

The only exception obviously is disability, since that is assistance to those that CANT work. For everything else you go to work. When you apply your also applying for a job. Those with very little skills will be used for things like cleaning parks and government buildings, those that have skills but fallen on hard times (construction) may be used in their field. Oh and you can apply for some spots in each type that will be open to teaching you to do that type of job. That way you learn new skills.

Can't do this because you have kids?? Oh well we will provide child care, those that are qualified to care for children will have that "job".

This job will pay slightly below what the normal "minimum" is for this type of position. This way you have incentive to work up.

This way we get better roads, cleaner parks, don't pay people for what they aren't doing (thus the government is saving money on cleaning staff for their buildings etc since they now are using the peopel they are already paying anyway for this stuff!!)

Oh one thing you can always get off work for is a job interview. We don't want people working so much on this "plan" that they don't have time to get a better job!

another layer to this discussion was you work or are in school full time to learn a trade, college and we will watch your kids etc etc and support you.
Its a nice idea the problem is you will still always have people that will not beable to work or dont want tooo... and then what if they really cannt find a job.

Still going to have bottom, middle, top class system... no way around it.

And if im a non working living off the system in the gettho,,, i have all the grants to go to a community college or state university if i can get there and get someone to watch my kids.

 

[ccgirl]

I haven't read the last few pages again yet but this reminds me of an idea I had that although I doubt would ever happen would be really cool.... I want to see what other people think.

I think Welfare and all these assistance programs should be work programs. The government is paying them anyway so why not get something out of it.

The only exception obviously is disability, since that is assistance to those that CANT work. For everything else you go to work. When you apply your also applying for a job. Those with very little skills will be used for things like cleaning parks and government buildings, those that have skills but fallen on hard times (construction) may be used in their field. Oh and you can apply for some spots in each type that will be open to teaching you to do that type of job. That way you learn new skills.

Can't do this because you have kids?? Oh well we will provide child care, those that are qualified to care for children will have that "job".

This job will pay slightly below what the normal "minimum" is for this type of position. This way you have incentive to work up.

This way we get better roads, cleaner parks, don't pay people for what they aren't doing (thus the government is saving money on cleaning staff for their buildings etc since they now are using the peopel they are already paying anyway for this stuff!!)

Oh one thing you can always get off work for is a job interview. We don't want people working so much on this "plan" that they don't have time to get a better job!

Loving this idea! Outstanding suggestion. I think that perhaps people on both sides wouldn't feel like it was handouts if they were getting something in return.

 

[kamik86]

another layer to this discussion was you work or are in school full time to learn a trade, college and we will watch your kids etc etc and support you.
Its a nice idea the problem is you will still always have people that will not beable to work or dont want tooo... and then what if they really cannt find a job.

Still going to have bottom, middle, top class system... no way around it.

And if im a non working living off the system in the gettho,,, i have all the grants to go to a community college or state university if i can get there and get someone to watch my kids.

Not be able to work why? I can't think of anything that wouldn't be considered for disability where a person REALLY couldn't work. Yes this would mean more people on disability.

If your going to school full time you can get a higher wage so you can work less hours on the program but I still think we should have them work some, I mean most of us here had to work through college.

If they don't want to work... Ok now they really aren't my problem. At this point I really can't find the compassion to care. I care about the kids... so we take them away for neglect and find them homes where someone cares about them enough to be willing to get a job to care for them. Not a perfect solution but honestly how I feel.

Not being able to find a job wasn't an issue with what I was proposing... think like work study for college students... if you qualify you MUST be given a job and the hours to make the money you qualify for at that job. May not be a great job, or the job you want, but you are guaranteed a job (because from gov. prospective its better then being guaranteed a welfare check).

 

[HHSTigerFan]

What those that support all of these welfare and other handout programs are overlooking is that people such as myself don't like seeing people struggle, in a perfect world everyone in this country would have a house, 2 cars, 2 kids and a dog to take on their yearly vacations and spend their happy Christmas with..

But thats not reality.. whats really happening is all of these programs are strangling middle America because we simply can't afford them.. I need to worry about my family, not just today or this week or month, but 30 years from now as well.. And THATS top priority here.