Steubenville OH case, anyone hear of this?

[Social Worker Sue]

We'd say "that thief!" Jerk should know better than to steal. Criminals! How dare they rob you.

What if the person who was passed out and robbed had a shirt on that said:

"Steal from me, I'm Irish".

What do you think people would say then?

My mind keeps going back to that girl I saw on St. Patty's Day. The one who was so drunk, she could barely keep her head up. The one with the shirt that said "Bleep Me, I'm Irish." The one who surrounded herself with other drunk individuals.

I think it is ok to say she made a poor choice in clothing that evening. Had she been assualted by animals, would we sit around saying she deserved it? NO! But, I am sure people would be mentioning that shirt.

 

[RadioNate]

What if the person who was passed out and robbed had a shirt on that said:

"Steal from me, I'm Irish".

What do you think people would say then?

My mind keeps going back to that girl I saw on St. Patty's Day. The one who was so drunk, she could barely keep her head up. The one with the shirt that said "Bleep Me, I'm Irish." The one who surrounded herself with other drunk individuals.

I think it is ok to say she made a poor choice in clothing that evening. Had she been assualted by animals, would we sit around saying she deserved it? NO! But, I am sure people would be mentioning that shirt.

I 100% believe the shirt would be inconsequential. I think we'd call the thief a jerk for stealing from her. We'd say that people shouldn't steal.

 

[Scurvy]

Ahhhh. But there lies the problem. The animals that rape are not normal. They do not think like other people. So, they may see a drunk girl, with a shirt that says *Bleep* Me, Im Irish and think That girl wants me to do what her shirt says.

So, as much as we want to teach our girls they can show their breasts or butt and it should not matter. It does matter. Normal people know it is not ok to rape a girl who is beyond drunk and wearing a skirt that shows her black lace panties, but a rapist is not getting that message.

Now, lets add teenagers drinking themselves into oblivion. It is not a good recipe. Can we agree it is ok to teach our girls they must protect themselves and not drink a half bottle of vodka? Is it ok (albeit not politically correct) to teach our girls that there are boys out there ready to pounce and, until that changes, we have to protect ourselves? Why is it controversial to say that?

It is never the victim's fault. Never, ever, ever. But, sadly we have to be vigilant. That is just the world we live in. I hope it changes one day, but until it does, lets teach our girls that there are sub-humans out there and what they can do to cut their chances of encountering them.

Around Christmas time, my local news did several stories about how to minimize your risk of robbery or burglary. They talked about not leaving your purchases or valuables visible in your car, and about not leaving the boxes from large purchases like televisions out by the street when potential criminals can see them. They've talked about which kinds of locks work best and what kind of doors are safest and most difficult to kick in. I don't even live in a high crime area, but I see stories or articles all the time about minimizing your risk of being a victim of crime. Many of these stories came immediately following reports about a robbery or home invasion, and were obviously a direct result of that crime. They weren't blaming the victims of those crimes, but they were telling the viewers what they could do differently to possibly avoid having the same thing happen to them.

I've seen tons of articles about how to avoid having your pocket picked when traveling, or about keeping your stuff from being stolen while going through airport security, or about which bags are hardest to slash open to steal things from. I often see articles about not walking to your car alone late at night and about having your key out and ready to use when leaving the mall with your purchases in the hopes of minimizing the chances of being robbed.

I've also seen articles and news stories about how to avoid being robbed or raped at parties - by never accepting a drink from someone, keeping your drink in sight at all times, not drinking to excess and not going off alone with someone you don't know.

Should any of that advice be necessary? No. Of course it shouldn't. We should live in a world where people don't steal from each other or take advantage of each other. But we don't, and that's a reality we have to live with. We can't stick our heads in the sand and say "I should be able to do whatever I want without anyone hurting me as a result, because I'm right and they are wrong.". To me, it doesn't matter whether the crime being discussed is just robbery or sexual assault. The bottom line it that they are crimes, and the point isn't to blame the victims of any of them. The point is to help teach people the best ways to try to minimize the chances that they will become victims.

All of our sons and daughters should be taught not to take advantage of each other, not to take anything that isn't theirs, and not to hurt other people. But since that doesn't always work, they should all also be taught to minimize their risk of being a victim of crime, whether that crime is robbery, kidnapping, rape or anything else.

 

[skater]

I agree that we need to minimize our risks of being victims. I'll continue to teach my kids how to do that. But like I said, if one of them becomes a victimizer, I wouldn't blame his victim. No matter what her shirt might say.

 

[LisaR]

This whole subtopic of girls drinking came from one poster saying the girl shares some of the responsibility for being drunk and another poster agreeing with that. Therein lies the rub.

The subtopic should be why some people still have the mindset that a rape victim can have any blame. Maybe if that attitude didn't exist then this crime wouldn't have happened in the first place. Maybe those defendants, knowing that society still will blame the victim for allowing herself to become intoxicated, figured it wasn't really a crime because she should have known better.

Maybe if our society did not still want to put some blame on the victim other people at the party would have stopped it, or at least came forward after the fact to give statements to the police. Why they did not is because they can all feel justified by the knowledge that society stills apportions blame to the victim in rape cases.

I took a criminal law class about 7 years ago, where several of the young males expressed the view that if a women goes out with you and lets you buy her drinks, then she has given her consent to sex.

And let's all be intellectually honest here and admit if this was any other crime beside a male on female rape, what the victim did or didn't do would not be a subtopic.

One can say over and over that rape victim is never to blame, however, when that thought is followed by a "but, girls should be told not to get drunk," then we are, on some level, blaming the victim,

Our society is made up of so many different types of people. Thankfully, a large percentage of males can see a passed out girl who is naked, half naked, panties showing, low cut top, etc. and have zero urge to rape her.

Unfortunately, there is a percent of males who believe that is an open invitation to take advantage of. They have the mentality that the girl is "asking for it."

We will never get rid of that group of people. That sick mentality will always exist. Therefore, as the parent of a female, she has been told many times throughout her life (and even more so recently since she is going to college) that there are scum bags out there who will use every opportunity to take advantage of you. You need to use the security service on campus and call for a ride back to your dorm if it is dark and you are alone. You need to make sure you don't drink to the point of losing control. You need to keep your drink with you at all times so some idiot doesn't put something in it.

I can't change the mindset of certain people in our society. I can teach my DD that there are people waiting to take advantage of others and it is in her best interest to always be vigilant and do the right thing.

Nobody deserves to be raped: not prostitutes, stupid teens who make poor choices, people walking through the projects, etc. Nobody! I would never blame the victim. But I think one of the most important things we can teach our daughters is to be alert and aware at all times and try their best not to make poor decisions where someone may be waiting to prey on them.

 

[chobie]

I do believe we can get rid of the attitude that a girl can "be asking for it." We've already come a long way. It's now against the rules of evidence, in most jurisdictions I believe, to bring up a victim's reputation for promiscuity in rape cases. That used to be a defense to rape, but now we accept that even a prostitute can be a rape victim.

We're getting there, but as long as someone wants to talk about the girl's responsibility in being raped (as happened in this thread) that attitude will perpetuate.

All kids need to be taught how to keep themselves safe from all sorts of situations.

 

[glammadiva]

I was very active in a national co-ed organization in college. I never, ever had more than 2 alcoholic beverages. My rule and not because my parents drilled anything into my head. In fact, they never discussed these issues with me. The others might drink too much, but no one ever passed out and we watched out for each other and respected one another. Its sad that today's teenagers, including college students don't understand this level of friendship and respect.

 

[RadioNate]

Our society is made up of so many different types of people. Thankfully, a large percentage of males can see a passed out girl who is naked, half naked, panties showing, low cut top, etc. and have zero urge to rape her.

Unfortunately, there is a percent of males who believe that is an open invitation to take advantage of. They have the mentality that the girl is "asking for it."

We will never get rid of that group of people. That sick mentality will always exist. Therefore, as the parent of a female, she has been told many times throughout her life (and even more so recently since she is going to college) that there are scum bags out there who will use every opportunity to take advantage of you. You need to use the security service on campus and call for a ride back to your dorm if it is dark and you are alone. You need to make sure you don't drink to the point of losing control. You need to keep your drink with you at all times so some idiot doesn't put something in it.

I can't change the mindset of certain people in our society. I can teach my DD that there are people waiting to take advantage of others and it is in her best interest to always be vigilant and do the right thing.

Nobody deserves to be raped: not prostitutes, stupid teens who make poor choices, people walking through the projects, etc. Nobody! I would never blame the victim. But I think one of the most important things we can teach our daughters is to be alert and aware at all times and try their best not to make poor decisions where someone may be waiting to prey on them.

I too believe that we can lessen that mentality. I don't think these boys were evil or psychopaths or sociopaths or something like that. I think they were part of the 'rape culture.' I don't think there was something innate in them they made them want to rape. No, we will never change those people but I don't believe those people are the majority of people who rape. I think the majority are entitled jerks who think she deserved it because she was "asking for it." I believe that is learned behavior. Any learned behavior can be lessened if we stop teaching it and accepting it.

 

[OceanAnnie]

I don't think anyone "asks for it". End of story.

In general, I think personal responsibility for oneself is underrated. I think we as parents need to teach our children the wide range of personal responsibility. The vulnerability and openness to calamity ran deep in this case for more than just the victim.

The bystanders that did nothing while evil took place, they bear responsibility too. I read where at least one guy said he felt tremendous guilt. He has to live with that. So many lives effected. None worse than the victim, but effected still.

We need to teach kids to act responsibly so they will know a dangerous situation for themselves and others and how to act. Doing the right thing at the right time is a hallmark of character. We need to build our kids up to recognize what it means to have a good character.

 

[krcit]

I do believe we can get rid of the attitude that a girl can "be asking for it." We've already come a long way. It's now against the rules of evidence, in most jurisdictions I believe, to bring up a victim's reputation for promiscuity in rape cases. That used to be a defense to rape, but now we accept that even a prostitute can be a rape victim.

We're getting there, but as long as someone wants to talk about the girl's responsibility in being raped (as happened in this thread) that attitude will perpetuate.

All kids need to be taught how to keep themselves safe from all sorts of situations.

Years ago(over 20) I worked in a fund office for a construction union. I never dressed provocatively but did wear shortish skirts. I had a problem with a stalker. I was getting phone calls at work and it was really scary. We eventually found out it was a guy in prison..one of his friends told him about me and he became fixated for whatever reason. Anyway, while all this was going on I was talking to my dad about it one day and he made a comment about me wearing short skirts. I was devastated. Devastated that someone I loved more than anyone in the world could be placing any blame on me, That somehow I had 'asked' for this pyscho to become obsessed with me just because I wore short skirts! I cannot even imagine how it would feel to be a vitim of a sexual assault and then have to listen to people placing blame on you. Sickening.

 

[RainbowBrite]

What happened was despicable, but I do think if you look like a hooker, you're just asking for trouble. Sorry, but that's what I think. It doesn't excuse what the boys did, but if girls don't want to risk anything happening, don't walk around looking like a tramp. This is just general.

That's a disgusting way of thinking, IMO. Girls in baggy sweatpants get raped. Elderly women get raped. Small children get raped. You don't have to look like a tramp to get raped and even if you do, that is not an invitation for someone to overpower you and use force to have sex with you.

 

[Acklander]

I was very active in a national co-ed organization in college. I never, ever had more than 2 alcoholic beverages. My rule and not because my parents drilled anything into my head. In fact, they never discussed these issues with me. The others might drink too much, but no one ever passed out and we watched out for each other and respected one another. Its sad that today's teenagers, including college students don't understand this level of friendship and respect.

Have you seen the "Don't be that guy" campaign going on in Canada? Instead of giving millions to the dairy council for their "got milk?" campaign (seriously, do we need to see another overpaid actor with a milk mustache?) I'd rather see the money go towards a public service ad campaign for the don't be that guy campaign.

 

[NotUrsula]

From the clips I have seen (fuzzed, of course -- I didn't go looking for the originals), it looks to me like the victim may also have been roofied, in addition to the drinks that she had.

I *did* hang out with a pretty heavy binge-drinking crowd once upon a time, and IME, if someone is as completely out of it for as long as that girl was solely due to alcohol consumption -- oblivious to how much and how often her body was being moved around and manipulated -- she would have ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning or died, not just woken up the following morning with a headache and no memory of what happened. That by her account she woke and didn't realize that anything was strange until she saw the tweets and postings, tells me that there may well be truth to her impression of perhaps being drugged as well.

Thanks to the fact that a couple of relatives of mine were victims of being slipped roofies at various times, I know that Ketamine and rohypnol clear the metabolism very quickly. If the girl did not suspect what had happened for a couple of days after the incident, a blood or urine test taken then would probably not have still come up positive.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I have been trying to piece the events of this story together for the past few days.

No doubt, the girl was wrong to be drinking vodka.

With that said, it's something that many of our teens are doing today, even in school, and yes, even without their parents knowing. (I hear stories about this happening among their peers at least weekly from my two in high school and their friends.)

But that aside, there are allegations that she was drugged and further, this was part of a plot by her ex-boyfriend and others to do something sinister to her. Now I imagine the reason we haven't heard much about that is because it was difficult to prove, whereas a direct hit to the crimes was much easier and a surefire conviction given the ample photographic evidence, but if it exists I'm not sure what the girl could have done differently, besides not putting vodka in her slushy, to prevent herself from being raped. Other things she did - going out to a party with "friends" - is something all of our teens do every day. It's not like these kids had "evil" written all over them; they were "regular" kids just like many of ours, and a coach's house is far from a dark alley at night.

Also, from what I've read, her level of unconsciousness to me screams drugging more than vodka alone. I mean, she didn't move (from reports I read) even when painful things were being done to her. I was never a big vodka drinker, but growing up (70s) I had friends who were, and believe me they could put away a LOT of it, and I never saw anything like that from any of them like I saw in reports of this girl's intoxication. To me (after 30 years of giving medications to people for living), she sounded more drugged than drunk. Just my own observation.

I'm not sure how she could have prevented this from occurring if she was drugged and plotted against in her own social circle. That's just freakin evil, an I hope everyone involved is charged and convicted.

 

[Cinderelly5507]

From the clips I have seen (fuzzed, of course -- I didn't go looking for the originals), it looks to me like the victim may also have been roofied, in addition to the drinks that she had.

I *did* hang out with a pretty heavy binge-drinking crowd once upon a time, and IME, if someone is as completely out of it for as long as that girl was solely due to alcohol consumption -- oblivious to how much and how often her body was being moved around and manipulated -- she would have ended up in the hospital with alcohol poisoning or died, not just woken up the following morning with a headache and no memory of what happened. That by her account she woke and didn't realize that anything was strange until she saw the tweets and postings, tells me that there may well be truth to her impression of perhaps being drugged as well.

Thanks to the fact that a couple of relatives of mine were victims of being slipped roofies at various times, I know that Ketamine and rohypnol clear the metabolism very quickly. If the girl did not suspect what had happened for a couple of days after the incident, a blood or urine test taken then would probably not have still come up positive.

The victim herself (before ever filing charges or going to the hospital) texted someone saying she must've been drugged. There was no proof presented in court, but I think it's a huge possibility. Even something like percocets with alcohol would've affected her. She's a tiny girl as well. I can't see it taking much.

 

[Arsenal1982]

And let's all be intellectually honest here and admit if this was any other crime beside a male on female rape, what the victim did or didn't do would not be a subtopic.

One can say over and over that rape victim is never to blame, however, when that thought is followed by a "but, girls should be told not to get drunk," then we are, on some level, blaming the victim,

There is such a thing as behaving intelligently so as not to put oneself in the line of fire, so to speak. There are many other crimes where I would be asking why did the victim do this or that. An example: If a young man or woman were to get shot walking through the projects at 2am, my question would be: why are they walking alone at 2am in a dangerous area? Nobody is blaming them. We're asking why did they choose to do this dangerous act.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

NotUrsula, we were posting at the same time, but I see we're essentially saying the same thing.

Cinderelly, there's a big difference between the victim taking her own drugs and the victim being drugged by someone else. Either could be possible, but given (if it's true) that there was a "plot" against her already, the latter seems more likely. I know she was known to be a drinker, but I don't know if she was known to take drugs as well.

At any rate, I thought I'd throw what I'm about to say in here, just cause I thought it was interesting.

Speaking to my 87 yr mother about the case, she assumed the girl was raped in the "usual sense" (for lack of a better term). When I explained she was raped digitally (and I believe orally as well), she had no idea what I was talking about, and when I explained, she was confused about whether that was rape. I had to explain.

Talking to a 15 yr old friend of my son's about it (it came up), upon hearing "digital rape" (and his knowing about the case), he asked if a camera (ie digital) was put in her [female parts].

Clearly we are not all on the same page about the definitions and terms of sex and rape, etc.

I also think some of this overlaps what we were talking about on the purity ring thread - that some forms of sex that are common among teens today (that help prevent pregnancy and maintain "virginity", ie oral and touching) are not thought of as sex by some of them.

I will say that, talking to my DS15 about a different rape case a couple of weeks ago, I was impressed he was able to define rape for me exactly, and the different types of rape - he'd learned it in Health class. I was glad they're discussing it in school, but I think we have to continue the discussions at home.

 

[chobie]

There is such a thing as behaving intelligently so as not to put oneself in the line of fire, so to speak. There are many other crimes where I would be asking why did the victim do this or that. An example: If a young man or woman were to get shot walking through the projects at 2am, my question would be: why are they walking alone at 2am in a dangerous area? Nobody is blaming them. We're asking why did they choose to do this dangerous act.

Maybe, they were walking through there at 2 am because they live there?

You might question these things, but I guarantee if a case like that was national news we would not be here discussing the victim's behavior.

 

[chobie]

Pea-n-me, every state is different, but in Florida there is no legal definition for rape. The charge is sexual battery and includes various definitions including organ to organ union and/or penetration with objects, there is all Lewd and Lascivious battery for when there is no penetration of any sort,

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Pea-n-me, every state is different, but in Florida there is no legal definition for rape. The charge is sexual battery and includes various definitions including organ to organ union and/or penetration with objects, there is all Lewd and Lascivious battery for when there is no penetration of any sort,

OK. Don't have time to delve into it today, but does anyone know if there are commonalities about the definition of rape throughout the U.S., i.e. something we all share?