Splash Mountain to become Princess and the Frog ride

[Krandor]

Makes you wonder if Disney could retcon Song of the South and "redo" it as from Africa, keeping the animated characters and tunes but reworking the overarching story as purely African.

I don't think disney can but I think somebody else could come along and do so.

 

[mousemoose]

Does anybody else remember The Simpsons episode "Itchy and Scratchy and Marge"?

 

[BrianL]

Does anybody else remember The Simpsons episode "Itchy and Scratchy and Marge"?

I remember ALL Simpsons episodes.

This really is a bit more of a complicated issue than that was.

 

[RamblingMad]

Brer Rabbit stories are now a best seller at Amazon. I think, people are trying to figure out what's going on since they can't buy the movie.

 

[Hummingbird]

Getting rid of Bre'r Rabbit and the Bre'r Rabbit IP and deeming it racist would certainly stop people from learning about West African fables or teaching their children about it. It would be naive to think that Disney doesn't have that kind of impact and power on what we watch or what information we value.

Are you Black/African American/or West African?

I can assure you these tales are still being passed down orally amongst us. The real tales and fables, NOT the white-washed versions that were stolen and watered down.

 

[dbark923]

Are you Black/African American/or West African?

I can assure you these tales are still being passed down orally amongst us. The real tales and fables, NOT the white-washed versions that were stolen and watered down.

Just being devil's advocate. Pretty much every "classic" disney movie is a watered down version of the original (i.e. Little Mermaid, Snow White, Cinderella, etc.). Some of those original stories are dark as hell.

 

[Malifisent]

Zip a dee doo dah is my absolute favorite Disney song and I can’t imagine a trip to Disney without hearing that song. It’s a ride full of animals for gods sake, some people go through life just looking for things to be offended by. And those people are out in droves right now... Come on people. This ride is a classic and should not be touched. I’m all for a tiana attraction but not this one. Yes, things can and should change but this is absolute insanity. What’s next, what’s the next attraction that’ll offend someone?

I think perhaps because the song appears to have been influenced by pre-civil war song that is, indeed, offensive. That may be behind Disney’s desire update the ride. If you start to read about the background of the movie, as well as the song, it isn’t really something that should be in a beloved family park looking to be inclusive of all people.

 

[fabfemmeboy]

So, this is off-topic, unrelated, but I will bring it back around .

My parents live in a 120 year old home that has been in my family since it was built. It will be my home eventually, so I do think it's fair that I have at least SOME say in changes made to the house because those changes will be forever...or a long time at least.

Now, for me, and this may be shocking to some of you who have been reading my comments (sarc), love the old. The old cabinets, the old woodwork, the old wallpaper. I want to keep as much original about the house as I can. I don't care for change (clearly)

Now, every other year or so, my parents get the itch to re-do something. And, usually, what this ends up as is covering up or removing old, original details...the ones I love with all my heart. And, I beg them not to paint the trim. And I beg them not to take an old window out. But, inevitably they do. And as always, it looks great. But, still deep in my heart, I wish I still had the original stuff.

The list of untouched things have become increasingly slim. And, I ask..."Isn't there ANYTHING you can save of the original house? Anything sacred? Anything untouchable?" And for them, the answer is no. For me, I would save all of it. But, if I can't save all of it, I would at least want to save SOME of it.

So, I am not comparing this to Splash Mountain directly. But, what I am trying to say is....this isn't Monsters Inc Laugh Floor. This isn't Aladdin's Flying Carpets. This is a major, major attraction. So, if this one is on the table, if this one isn't "untouchable," doesn't that essentially mean that all of it is on the table?

I say this to answer your question about do we never want the parks to change? And, for the people like me, who are change-averse....I don't think it's the change in and of itself. I think we, and I am speaking for myself, are okay with changes. But...we crave at least some sort of stability. We want to know there is at least SOME attractions/restaurants/shops/landmarks that are going to stay the way they are forever. But, when a biggie like Splash Mountain happens, it makes us realize nothing is safe. Everything is on the table. And, those things we really, REALLY love...Main Street, the Castle, PeopleMover, Haunted Mansion. I would hope that they are safe, but...when one big thing falls, who is to say others won't either?

So, for me, it's a lot less about Splash Mountain. And more about what it may imply about the future of the park and resort as a whole. Of course, I know Walt didn't want WDW to be a museum, and he wanted things to constantly progress....but I'd like to believe that the Marcelline side of him would also have certain things that were not to be touched. Certain things that were intrinsically crucial to the Disney experience.

I'm a sucker for details in old houses, too, and it guts me when people feel the need to "update" them by tearing out the cool stuff and putting in whatever is of-the-moment, so I get it. And I can appreciate the feeling that changes can snowball, but I would posit that Splash a) isn't nearly as much of a "biggie" as the others you listed, in part because it's like 20-25 years younger in Florida and 35 years younger than the original versions; and 2) many of the others you listed have already been changed, altered, reconsidered, in some ways. I mean, the Castle got a completely new colour scheme while the lockdown happened. Personally, not a fan from what I've seen, but some people will adore it. Most won't care one way or the other. In California, there's a Haunted Mansion holiday overlay that people freaked out about before it went in, and now people love it (myself included). ...we did ruin PeopleMover in California, and I'll forever be upset about that. But it goes beyond only those biggies. Space Mountain is different and has overlays now. Pirates has changed multiple times. And California Adventure seems to retheme entire lands every time a new franchise comes out - sometimes for the better, sometimes less so.

I spent quite a bit of time yesterday thinking about this, and in particular about what rides that I enjoy would be "ruined" or "damaged" or "lesser" if the theming were changed. Changed, not removed - so not just turning it into an off-the-shelf ride but making it a different theme, like this will be. And while I could come up with some that might not make as much sense if the theming changed, or some that I would be wary of depending on what the theming change itself was (e.g. please don't just turn Mission Space into another Star Wars or Avengers ride, even though I like both those franchises), I think as long as the ride is still themed to the same extent, with the same level of detail and story and care, it wouldn't be a loss in my mind. I think if they were retheming Splash to something that didn't make any sense (I don't know, let's say Beauty and the Beast) it would bother me more, but we're talking about a movie that's already all about adventures and chase scenes through water and that has a giant riverboat set piece at the end.

So to bring it back to your house analogy, I think we need to consider what changes are being made and why. Are they ripping out the amazing original molding or the gorgeous built-in-bookcases and replacing them with boring basic drywall? Or are they putting in a new oven because the one they had is ancient and doesn't actually heat food anymore? Are they adding more countertops because they don't have a place to work? And - if they were to make the changes in a way that purposefully maintained the aesthetics of an old, charming house but updated it to suit their more modern needs - would that still be as bit of a problem?

 

[WorldOfPooh]

The Story of Brer Rabbit with Mama Koku

 

[Hummingbird]

Just being devil's advocate. Pretty much every "classic" disney movie is a watered down version of the original (i.e. Little Mermaid, Snow White, Cinderella, etc.). Some of those original stories are dark as hell.

I well understand that. My comment to that person was because I kept seeing them pretty much saying that the tales and fables would die out if this is changed. It would not.

 

[mousemoose]

"You need to find the good in things. Not just the bad. If all you do is look for bad, all you'll find is bad. If you look to the sunshine and see nothing but drought and sunburns, you're on a depressing path."

 

[DGsAtBLT]

I well understand that. My comment to that person was because I kept seeing them pretty much saying that the tales and fables would die out if this is changed. It would not.

There is something that feels so insulting about implying that stories passed down in a culture are reliant on a Disney ride to survive. I’m certain I am wording how I feel poorly but this whole tangent has been uncomfortable.

It feels manipulative, I don’t know.

 

[WorldOfPooh]

Anansi/Bre'r Rabbit Stories:
By the Fireside -Why the termite is so Destructive 1

 

[AnnTiquity]

Uncle Remus and Brer Rabbit is in the public domain. Download the e-book for free from Project Gutenberg or download a free audio book from Librivox. Librivox uses volunteers to read the book so it is not a professional reading.

 

[dbark923]

I well understand that. My comment to that person was because I kept seeing them pretty much saying that the tales and fables would die out if this is changed. It would not.

Oh I absolutely agree with you. It's like saying if you knock down a confederate statue, it's erasing history. No, no its' not.

 

[LindsaySue]

I am fine with this. A re-theme is ok, just don't change the ride. I love this ride. I bet it will be cute when it's done

 

[BrianL]

There is something that feels so insulting about implying that stories passed down in a culture are reliant on a Disney ride to survive. I’m certain I am wording how I feel poorly but this whole tangent has been uncomfortable.

It feels manipulative, I don’t know.

But, you do have to admit that any of the old fables or stories are made much more well-known and kept in the public eye by getting the Disney treatment. I don't necessarily think they would die out completely, but Disney does give them a very big shot in the arm.

 

[Krandor]

But, you do have to admit that any of the old fables or stories are made much more well-known and kept in the public eye by getting the Disney treatment. I don't necessarily think they would die out completely, but Disney does give them a very big shot in the arm.

but do the people to whoms culture the stories belong want that to happen?

 

[chasgoose]

Brer Rabbit and Ananse Stories from Africa

: Looking At Ourselves In Ghana

Rev Peter E Adotey Addo

Here is the final word on that old Brer Rabbit. The Origins Of The Brer Rabbit Stories In The American South

In Africa Ananse, the Spider, is the hero of all folktales. The Spider is a crafty, cantankerous, and wise creature. He is regarded as the one who challenges the creator. One day as the legend goes, Ananse collected all Wisdom from the earth and attempted to hide it on the top of the tallest tree in the forest, thereby depriving all humans of knowledge and wisdom. The Spider, carrying the "Pot of Wisdom," was reminded by his own son how stupid his attempt was. In trying to place the pot behind him Ananse fell and as you can imagine the pot broke and naturally Wisdom was scattered all over the world and so it happened that everybody got a piece of wisdom. Knowledge, we believe in Africa is and should be free for all. Among the Ga Speaking people of Ghana by this simple act the Great Creator who made Wisdom also made it free for all people and no one person has all the Wisdom. Everyone has just a piece of the Knowledge and no one has it all.

Most of the Stories referred to as Brer Rabbit are actually Anasne Stories brought to the Americas by the African American Slaves introduced here Centuries ago. In an attempt to keep their Culture alive in this Strange and forbidden place they found themselves, they tried against all odds to keep alive the few songs and stories about the homeland they would never see again. It was something they could remember and so they held on to the Ananse the Wise Trickster figure they were all familiar with from the Land of their birth.

Here the act of Story Telling was a very important part of their Lives since it was by this Oral Tradition that History was kept alive and transmitted from one generation to another. Secondly all the Ananse Stories ended with Specific Messages, Morals or Advice , Proverbs or a Very Wise Saying. What they had then was an Instrument of transmitting Knowledge, Morals, Ethical Values, and an Instrument of sharing but also Preserving their Common Values in a new Land. Thus the very close similarity between the Ananse Stories of Africa and the Brer Rabbit Stories.

For further Reading.....Check .. How the Spider Became Bald: Folktales and Legends from West Africa by Rev Peter E Adotey Addo at Amazon.com

https://www.ghanaweb.com/GhanaHomePage/features/Brer-Rabbit-and-Ananse-Stories-from-Africa-269761

Quit beating this dead horse. We are all aware of the origins of these stories and it would have been one thing if the version of them we were presented with were taken directly from the African source, but its not like these stories were frozen in time from the time the Africans who were taken here to be slaves to the time they were compiled and edited by Joel Chandler Harris. These stories were from an oral tradition, and they had centuries to be shaped and informed by their tellers' generations in bondage. For the same reason no one would suggest that spirituals had no subtext about yearning to be "carried home" from the misery of slavery, it's impossible to suggest that over time the meanings and details of the Uncle Remus stories didn't also take on a similar subtext.

Even if you disagree, it's similarly impossible to suggest that Joel Chandler Harris was some neutral transcriber of the Uncle Remus stories. While he seemed relatively genuine in his intent, he was a product of his time that still largely viewed black people as inferior to white people and that shows in the dialect and presentation of the stories, which were not intended to be some sort of compilation of African folktales, but were explicitly designed to be a compilation of African-American folktales told by ex-slaves recently freed from bondage, but still subject to second-class status. If Disney had adapted the ride from sources that had never been pressed into slavery and remained in Africa, the African origins might be relevant, but Disney did not do that (and I think, based on Disney locking down Song of the South indefinitely, they want to get as far away from Br'er Rabbit as they can, regardless if re-adapting and contextualizing them from earlier African sources would be a worthy project). Instead Disney presented the stories largely as is from Harris's retelling/editing and they are simply impossible to extract his influence and the new meanings the stories took on over time through people retelling them while being enslaved.

Furthermore, to the extent that the oral tradition of the Br'er Rabbit dating back to Africa is even acknowledged in the Song of the South, the Uncle Remus character explicitly characterizes these stories as coming from a time when we (meaning his black forebears) were "closer to the animals" and we were happier, as though to suggest that these stories originate from a time when black people were more animalistic and that their unhappiness stems from having moved on from this simplicity (this is all laid out in much greater detail and specificity in the You Must Remember This podcast season about this show by Karina Longworth, who actually rewatched the movie and can cite numerous instances where this implication is clearly made: http://www.youmustrememberthispodcast.com/episodes/tag/Song+of+the+South). So even if you excise Uncle Remus from the ride and only focus on Br'er Rabbit, the context in which these stories exist within the movie itself is less than ideal.

Essentially, folklore and other artistic traditions, especially those passed down orally from generation to generation change over time depending on the circumstances of the storyteller (and in this case the biases and perspective of Joel Chandler Harris who compiled and edited them for consumption by white audiences). Context matters, and it's willfully obtuse to pretend that the Uncle Remus version of the Br'er Rabbit stories/Song of the South/Splash Mountain were intended to honor and reference the African tales they derived from. All of them came from the version Harris provided and you can't separate the centuries of baggage that slavery added to them and Harris and his audience's attitudes about the storytellers and the stories themselves when discussing them in the context of Splash Mountain. It's disingenuous to act as though re-theming Splash Mountain will "erase" these African tales when presenting the original African stories was never Disney's intent (or even on Disney's radar) throughout its relationship with Br'er Rabbit.

 

[mousemoose]

.....and I still love Splash Mountain and the Brer characters.