Splash mountain refurbishment

[ChipnDale79]

The fact that some people are offended doesn’t make something racist. Can you acknowledge that?

What I’ll say is, YOU dont get to decide what is racist or not. YOU, don’t get to determine how others feel.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

YOU dont get to decide what is racist or not. YOU, don’t get to determine how others feel.

Do you? Do other posters? Or is it only me who doesn’t get to decide?

 

[Spyral]

Want to make a few comments before this thread gets locked, which seems to be what is going to happen because anytime try to get on back to original topic, it goes off again (which I am going to be a little guilty of here too).

I originally did not want Splash Mountain changed. I really enjoy the ride, music, etc. However, the more I think about it, the more I am ok with it. I don't think we should whitewash history, but at the same time, we need to be careful not to view everything in history with today's ethical standards and should keep it in historical context. I am sure in another 100, 500, 1000 years, people will be questioning our lifestyle and choices (heck we already are, and in some cases for good reasons).

That being said, I think Song of the South was not right for the time it was filmed in the first place. It could/should have been more socially conscious at that time and heralded as positive film for a diverse country. If it had been, we would be celebrating it today.

There's no reason to continue to have this controversial theme in a theme park or to keep it around to use as a learning opportunity. One goes to Disney to escape such issues, not to be confronted by them.

On the re-theming, I do think Princess and the Frog will work great for Disneyland as it fits the area (an expanded New Orleans Square) almost perfectly. For Disney World, it is more of a stretch, though not any more of a stretch than Song of the South.

It would be great if it was a different theme between DL and DW. A lot more merchandising opportunities, which would think would appeal to Chapek and the bean counters. Great comments and discussions about Brother Bear and Davy Crockett. I could see either of those, even though the IP's are not as strong today. Is that a bad thing though? I mean, I know Disney is all about the IP's of late, but doing something that doesn't have a strong IP may make it a stronger IP going forward.

A thought I had which could fit with Frontierland would be Pocahontas (it was the "Frontier" at the time). Even though Pocahontas has whitewashing/historical context issues of its own, I don't think it is egregious as Song of the South.

Could do something more obscure like "The Grand Canyonscope". You could be whitewater rafting down the Colorado to/through the Grand Canyon. Have Louie the Mountain Lion going after Donald. Include Woodlore (the park ranger). Create some new characters. Integrate the existing and/or create some new musical tunes. Could be great fun and would tie in more with BTM, location-wise.

They could also come up with a brand new theme. Just like BTM, SM, Pirates (original), Everest, etc, though under current leadership, I don't see them doing this.

 

[luv2cheer92]

Do you? Do other posters? Or is it only me who doesn’t get to decide?

Just because something isn't racist to you doesn't mean it isn't racist. Is that better?

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Just because something isn't racist to you doesn't mean it isn't racist. Is that better?

Are you saying that people shouldn’t just claim that things are racist when others disagree?

 

[ChipnDale79]

Do you? Do other posters? Or is it only me who doesn’t get to decide?

Apparently enough people think song of the south is racist enough for Disney to never release it on home video in the US.

 

[bsmcneil]

Apparently enough people think song of the south is racist enough for Disney to never release it on home video in the US.

And, for what it's worth, have since Day 1. This isn't an issue of modern sensibilities - people of color have expressly named this particular movie as damaging since its release.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Apparently enough people think song of the south is racist enough for Disney to never release it on home video in the US.

Why do they get to decide?

 

[Douglas Dubh]

And, for what it's worth, have since Day 1. This isn't an issue of modern sensibilities - people of color have expressly named this particular movie as damaging since its release.

Many of them without ever watching the film. Why is their opinion valued?

 

[bsmcneil]

Many of them without ever watching the film. Why is their opinion valued?

Many of the people alive and reviewing movies when it was released didn't watch it? How would you know that? You wouldn't, and your (textbook definition of) ignorance is showing. You may claim that people giving reviews of the film now haven't seen it; but it's plainly untrue and unlikely that contemporary reviewers went to a media screening of it and yet reviewed it without watching or listening to it.

A couple of relevant points of information for people other than @Douglas Dubh (because I believe it's clear that the user isn't here to engage in honest and nuanced reflection):

"It's not as if Disney didn't know he was working with contentious material either. He hired Clarence Muse, the performer and first African American to appear in a starring role in a movie, to be a screenplay consultant. Muse, however, quit the job when the original screenwriter, Dalton S. Reymond, ignored his suggestions to portray the Black characters as more than trite stereotypes. Muse went so far as to write letters to the editors of various Black publications to criticize the film before it ever got to the shooting stage. Reymond, who has no screenplay credits aside from Song of the South, peppered his original treatment with words like "massa" and "darkey." Disney knew this would be a problem, so he brought on board Maurice Rapf to temper the situation.

Rapf was a curious choice for this job. While he was an experienced screenwriter, he wasn't a Disney man. Moreover, he was Jewish, the co-founder of the Screen Writers Guild, and a full-on communist. Essentially, he was Walt Disney's worst nightmare, but that seemed to be a good thing for Walt when it came to Song of the South. When Rapf asked him why Disney wanted him to work on the movie, given his fear that the movie would inevitably be an Uncle Tom-esque racist nightmare, Disney said, "That's exactly why I want you to work on it," Walt told him, "because I know that you don't think I should make the movie. You're against Uncle Tomism, and you're a radical." Rapf took the job but only lasted seven weeks before an argument with Reymond saw him removed from the project. He was replaced by Morton Grant. Of the six screenwriters credited on Song of the South, all of them are white.

Disney threw everything into Song of the South. Its initial budget of $2.125 million (around $28.3 million in 2020 money) was over $700,000 more than Make Mine Music, the animated movie that was also released in 1946. The movie's premiere was held at the Fox Theater in Atlanta, the same cinema where Gone With the Wind was first screened. At the time, Atlanta was racially segregated so the film's leading man, James Baskett, couldn't even attend the premiere. This was meant to be a defining moment in Disney history, a sign that Walt could keep up with any epic that his contemporaries in Hollywood could create. So, it was something of a surprise for Uncle Walt when the movie did just kind of OK at the box office.

Reviews were mixed too. While the animation was praised, the story itself was seen as predictable, devoid of charm, and clearly problematic in terms of race and history. The NAACP picketed the movie, with the organization's executive secretary Walter Francis White releasing a statement condemning the film for the way it "perpetuate a dangerously glorified picture of slavery. Making use of the beautiful Uncle Remus folklore, Song of the South, unfortunately, gives the impression of an idyllic master-slave relationship which is a distortion of the facts." Adam Clayton Powell, Jr., a congressman from Harlem, branded the film an "insult to American minorities [and] everything that America as a whole stands for." Richard B. Dier of The Afro-American slammed the movie for being "as vicious a piece of propaganda for white supremacy as Hollywood ever produced."

Here's another excerpt from a relatively recent article: "An important point to make about Song of the South – and a lot of controversial art, for that matter – is that it’s not an act of PC revisionism to call out its prejudices, because plenty of people were doing so at the time, too. Disney produced the film over the objections of the NAACP and the American Council on Race Relations, and rejected efforts to soften the script by the southern-born writer Dalton Reymond. And it was released to picket lines in some cities and some scathing criticism from reviewers, politicians and other black advocacy groups."

 

[StarCruzer]

I'm not replying to any specific post/person, but I highly encourage anyone interested in the history of Song of the South to listen to this podcast series:
http://www.youmustrememberthispodca...uth-episode-1-disneys-most-controversial-film
While it is quite long (six parts!) goes into great depth about the history of the movie and the book it was based on. It is so unfortunate that such a beloved attraction was created from questionable source material. I don't expect it will change peoples' minds on if they think it's racist or not, but it gives the ride itself a much deeper context, to help understand why many feel it's so problematic. I also just think it's a very interesting history!

And keep in mind that this podcast was produced nearly a year before the ride changes were announced.

 

[Leight19]

Hopefully some of the more controversial conversations subside bit before it locks thread because the debate about should it be rethemed to me isn’t that interesting since Disney made the decision. I’m more interested in thoughts/rumors on how it will be rethemeed.

I heard there was special thst discussed some updates to plans but wasn’t sure where to watch (any pointers where I can find?). My main concern from internet rumors and general trend at Disney this last year is they are not putting the money in they need to revamp properly to do the movie justice. Anyone hear anything that may confirm/alleviate my fears? I had gotten impression somewhere that they are reusing animatronics which is concerning sign of cheap revamp to me.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Many of the people alive and reviewing movies when it was released didn't watch it?

Many of those that criticized it, such as Walter Francis White, did so without watching it. I‘ve read that in multiple articles about the film.

But I notice no one is answering my questions. Why do some people claim I can’t say the songs in the ride aren’t racist but have no problem when somebody else claimed ”it” was? Why do they go off on tangents instead of actually addressing what I said?

 

[bsmcneil]

Many of those that criticized it, such as Walter Francis White, did so without watching it. I‘ve read that in multiple articles about the film.

But I notice no one is answering my questions. Why do some people claim I can’t say the songs in the ride aren’t racist but have no problem when somebody else claimed ”it” was? Why do they go off on tangents instead of actually addressing what I said?

My sense is that you know why people are ignoring your question (if, for no other reason, than debating racism isn't the point of Disboards and the thread will get locked). Still, if you and I eat the same meal and I claim that there's no way it's spicy because it tasted bland to me and yet you claim it was, does my experience define your reality? Now factor in hundreds of years of history.

In terms of the refurbishment of the ride, which is the point of this thread, in 2001 (the first and only time I rode SM), WDW was still using "Zip-a-dee-doo-dah" in its resort tv advertisements and merch. Over the past 18 months, the song has been pulled from a number of places in the parks. My guess is that within 5 years, new generations of guests will enjoy whatever the attraction becomes and some people will miss the old theming (not unlike Dixie Landings). And there will be some of us who experienced the old (Splash Mountain) and are happy with it changing (I have no fond memories of riding it - I was pretty appalled by the time we went down the drop and the flash took my picture and I've not been on it again since then). The only relatively good memory I have is of making a terrible pun about how it hard me "fuming" instead of "fluming." But then again, I studied this sort of thing in college (no, really, one of my courses was on media depictions of African Americans during the 20th century) and I absolutely love fireflies (which ties in nicely with P&tF). This couldn't be a more perfect transition for me. While I recognize people have their memories, I can't really imagine being more "devastated" that a theme park ride has changed than I am about pressing a cultural sore spot while saying, "Well, this doesn't hurt me so it shouldn't hurt you."

 

[giantsmets]

Many of those that criticized it, such as Walter Francis White, did so without watching it. I‘ve read that in multiple articles about the film.

But I notice no one is answering my questions. Why do some people claim I can’t say the songs in the ride aren’t racist but have no problem when somebody else claimed ”it” was? Why do they go off on tangents instead of actually addressing what I said?

Okay Douglas, you win. There’s (probably) nothing explicitly racist stated in the lyrics of the songs. So, I guess, taken individually the songs “aren’t racist”. The issue is that the source material that the songs are from is explicitly racist, linking the songs and characters with racism in such a way that it’s inappropriate to have them in a theme park.

Edit: I say that there’s probably nothing racist in the song lyrics because I haven’t heard anything that could be interpreted as racist in the songs, but fully acknowledge there could be lyrics that I am forgetting or haven’t heard.

 

[DVCcurious]

Do you? Do other posters? Or is it only me who doesn’t get to decide?

Only people who think the correct (notice I didn’t say “right”) way get to decide what’s considered racist.

 

[TDSAXX]

Only people who think the correct (notice I didn’t say “right”) way get to decide what’s considered racist.

But who decides what is the “correct” way to think?

 

[CBMom01]

But who decides what is the “correct” way to think?

No one is telling anyone what to think. A company that runs an theme park is making a theme change to a ride. Literally all that’s happening here.

 

[bsmcneil]

No one is telling anyone what to think. A company that runs an theme park is making a theme change to a ride. Literally all that’s happening here.

Right. And regardless of what I think, Disney didn't call it racist - though they have talked about inclusion, since that's one of the Keys.

 

[TDSAXX]

No one is telling anyone what to think. A company that runs an theme park is making a theme change to a ride. Literally all that’s happening here.

I was replying to a previous poster that literally said “only people who think the correct way get to decide what’s considered racist”. It was more a general comment on that post.