Sort of a S/O. How much do you think "helping" your children is actually "helping?"

[Pea-n-Me]

The thread about "life-changing" amounts of money got me thinking abut what I WOULD do if I came into a life-changing sum of money. Helping your children seems to be a common response on that thread.

How much help do you think is actually helpful as opposed to doing too much for your children? Obviously something like the Lori Laughlin affair is going too far, but how far do you think you can go to help your kids before it becomes more detrimental than beneficial?

My husband and I differ on this sometimes. We both grew up with less than what we have now, and sometimes what I view as giving our children opportunities we didn't have, he views as spoiling them. I'm talking about things like summer camps and extracurricular activities, but also material things to an extent. These are things we can very easily afford.

Right now the kids don't really have any earning power so everything they have is compliments of Mom and Dad. So it's not really a question of how much we "help" them but how much we "give" them. But soon we'll be talking cars, college, etc. I would be happy to "help" with these expenses, but DH feels they need to figure out how to pay for these on their own. I see his point; I don't want them to be lazy and entitled and expect life to be easy. But if we can afford to make life easier for them than it was for us, should we?

What do you think? How much would you be wiling to "help" or give your kids if money weren't really much of a factor. For those of you who went through something of a struggle during the "lean years" when you were just starting out (like DH and I both did!) but are doing well now, do you think those difficult years made you stronger and were worth the struggle? Do you think you would have turned out as well if someone had been there to help out when your car needed brakes or your new job required a wardrobe you couldn't afford? How much should we let our kids struggle when we can afford to help?

There are so many ways to help our kids besides giving them things and money!

I think the old saying, "Give me a fish, I eat for a day; teach me to fish, I eat for a lifetime" comes into play.

location is a big consideration-and rents around here are about the same. car insurance she's managed to keep down b/c while she pays the cost it's on our policy so that garners more discounts than she could get on her own.



but they/you/us (dh and i before we married) managed to survive (not nesc. live anything resembling a 'lifestyle' but survive) b/c we worked with what we had to get by.


young adults of today are no different than they were when i was growing up in the 70's as far as many having the mindset that they should walk into adulthood (be it from college or high school) into the identical or better lifestyle they had growing up. few take into consideration how long it took their parents to acquire what they have/be able to afford what they provide. many look at salaries for professions and don't consider the amounts estimated are after years in the field-not entry level. in what i fear are far too many cases parents have/are/will be shortchanging their own retirement needs/digging themselves into debt to provide extracurriculars/'opportunities'/tuition/weddings/down payments on homes let alone years of financial support for non essentials giving these young adults a very wrong view on what they can reasonably expect to be able to afford when the time comes where they HAVE TO BE SELF SUPPORTING.

i feel strongly about this in part b/c i'm watching the aftermath of it. a family member who gave their kids all the perks, lived the lifestyle they wanted vs. could afford. their kids went to private colleges assuming their income would pay the horrendous debt easily, into jobs assuming they assumed could afford the same lifestyle, had kids assuming their kids could have the same lifestyle. you can see it in their faces that they feel like failures-why can't they make it like their parents did/do? why aren't they as successful as their parents/why are they living hand to mouth? not my place to tell them mom/dad took money hand over fist from THEIR parents, that they likely have next to nothing saved for very soon to be retirement age, likely have debt so mountainous they will never be out from under it. the kids were not raised with realistic expectations and it was no advantage to them to be given 'opportunities' they/their parents could in no way afford.

I agree to the bolded. I think we discussed it on another thread recently, too. Many young adults are used to going out to eat frequently and they want a home that's new or renovated, etc., not appreciating that it may have taken us 20 or 30 years to have gotten to that point.

 

[cvjw]

College... Are you kidding me. Hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, to Uncle Sam, for a degree you may or may not ever get, or that might or might not ever get a job that will be able to pay it back.
.

This just isn’t true. Both of my boys did dual enrollment at the 3rd largest university in our state where the tuition + fees per semester is $2500. This is totally doable for a student to pay themselves with a part time job. No student loan required. And, you can get a great degree there, they are the leader in certain career choices.

It is all about choices and personal responsibility. We made our kids go to school instate where tuition is free or almost free. We could have paid the $50,000 per year for them to go out of state, but that just isn’t smart when we have great, almost free universities in Georgia.

People have to be smart. Don’t go to the most expensive, out of state or private school where tuition is high when you can get the same degree at a closer, cheaper school. Don’t go into debt to get a degree where you have no earning potential.

My son graduated with a masters degree with zero debt. His friend went out of state for the same degree and has over $200,000 in debt. That figure would be much lower if they had stayed instate, even if there were student loans involved. Choices people. Make smart ones.

 

[mjkacmom]

There are so many ways to help our kids besides giving them things and money!

I think the old saying, "Give me a fish, I eat for a day; teach me to fish, I eat for a lifetime" comes into play.


I agree to the bolded. I think we discussed it on another thread recently, too. Many young adults are used to going out to eat frequently and they want a home that's new or renovated, etc., not appreciating that it may have taken us 20 or 30 years to have gotten to that point.

Not mine!!! Old home, old vehicles (I think the 2006 Honda just bit the dust because parts needed are more than its worth, but I have my eye on a 2005 Sentra with only 42,000 miles at our auto shop, only a little body damage). We go out to eat to celebrate birthdays. Setting the bar low.... I grew up in a big beautiful house, but we never went out to eat, my parents drove cars into the ground, and when I moved out into my own 2 room studio apartment, I felt like I had arrived, same as I did buying my first car. There wasn’t a new piece of anything in my apartment (most was people’s unwanted items), same for dd22 and dd21.

 

[disykat]

I totally agree with cvjw. There may not be as good a deals as they found, but there are always some options that are cheaper than others. Choose less debt over more.

 

[RamblingMad]

Choices people. Make smart ones.

The financial crisis taught me that given the opportunity people will not make smart choices.

 

[Wishing on a star]

Calculators don't lie....

 

[barkley]

There wasn’t a new piece of anything in my apartment (most was people’s unwanted items),

the amount of expensive nearly new furniture and electronics that fill dozens upon dozens of dumpsters and litter the streets for garbage pickup at the end of the school year near the universities near us (we have 3 major and a couple of extension all in close proximity) is OBSCENE. brand new household appliances-still in the taped shut original boxes just tossed out. i get that it can be expensive to store stuff over the 3 month summer break if you are dorming or moving from one apartment to another but it can't exceed the cost of entirely refurnishing. one of the local furniture stores that specializes in high end mattresses makes a killing every august when the private university students come in and drop a grand on a single bed mattress (no box b/c their dorm beds don't use them) only to toss them out the following may and repurchase again in august. heck-dh and i were thrilled when we were able to upgrade our futon to a bargain real matt and box springs once we got f/t jobs.

 

[MrsPete]

We both grew up with less than what we have now, and sometimes what I view as giving our children opportunities we didn't have, he views as spoiling them. I'm talking about things like summer camps and extracurricular activities, but also material things to an extent. These are things we can very easily afford.

My husband and I both grew up without much, and we talked a great deal about this topic before we had children. Some of our thoughts were contradictory:

- We are moderately wealthy, yet we live like we're lower middle class. We never let our children know how much we earned /how much we have saved. We gave them less than we could afford to give them, and I've never been sorry about it. They have no idea we're secretly rich.
- They learned how to budget, how to be resourceful, how to "make do" with what they had. They don't turn up their noses at used clothing, and they take care of what they have.
- We paid every penny of their college educations (well, the youngest is still a student, so we're still in that process). We explained it to them, saying that we prioritized saving for college, which gives them earning potential forever over small transitory luxuries. They didn't always like it when we said no, but they understood.

To counter that, I started working part time when I was 14 years old. My dad taught me how to do an "envelope" system with my $80 paycheck -- I had an envelope for Gas, Car Insurance, Christmas, Free Spend.

I've never been an "envelope saver", but I started working with my kids about the time they started school and had a concept of money -- I actively taught them how to use money. Again, I've never been sorry for the effort I put into those lessons.

I know you're just joking, but my son felt it was "harsh" of us to expect him to start paying his phone and car insurance when he graduated college (no student loan debt) and got a full time salary earning job. And we didn't expect it right away either.

I started talking to my kids about their "transition to self-sufficiency" when they started their junior year in college. Our specifics:
- They can ALWAYS come home. ALWAYS. But they must work full time or go to school full time, and they must help around the house /pay something for groceries and utilities. We're fine with them living with us because they want to or because they want to save for a house /other priorities, but we're not okay with them mouching off of us because they cannot support themselves.
- Each of our kids was /will be in an apartment their senior year of college. I paid the deposit for those apartments, but I told the kids that THEY were responsible for taking care of the place, and THEY could keep the deposit after graduation ... and that would be their deposit for their next place.
- Each of our kids graduated /will graduate with a paid-for used car in good condition. We've made sure the cars were in good repair at graduation (decent tires, etc.), but after graduation they're responsible for maintenance. We've encouraged them to start making a "payment" into a transportation account so that when they need to replace the cars, they'll be able to pay cash.
- We told them, "You'll graduate in May. Your car insurance will be due in July, and we'll pay for the year as we always have -- but the NEXT July, you need to have X amount ready because you'll be responsible for it yourself. You're currently on our cell phone plan. We'll continue to pay it through December. You may stay on our plan, but you must pay your share starting in January. We expect you to have a full-time job within two months of graduation; you'll be responsible for medical bills, work clothing, etc. at that time."
- Every semester in college, I bought each of my kids a very classic outfit appropriate for the work place -- so they were "set" for job shadowing experiences in college, and they were (minimally) ready to dress for work. I did this because so many of the student teachers who come to our school are ... soooo ... not ... dressed ... appropriately.

my parents (mostly my mother) basically ruined my brothers by not giving them the tools they needed to succeed in life. And now, they never will.

You can give too little /teach too little.

young adults of today are no different than they were when i was growing up in the 70's as far as many having the mindset that they should walk into adulthood (be it from college or high school) into the identical or better lifestyle they had growing up. few take into consideration how long it took their parents to acquire what they have/be able to afford what they provide.

How can kids know what to expect from adulthood unless you teach them? I know that when I was in high school /college, I certainly understood that a $20,000 job paid less than a $50,000 job, but I really didn't understand whether that $20,000 job would mean sharing an apartment with a roommate or buying a house a year after graduation ... whether that job would mean driving a used car or a new car ... and so on. And my parents were hopeless with money, so they didn't teach me anything.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

It used to be that a student could work their way through college. Those days are long gone. The cost of college in the US is $30K - $75K/year. They can only take out loans of up to $5500/year. Kids can't pay for it on their own.

I am sacrificing to give my kids the best education they can have. My parents didn't do that for me and it really hurt our relationship.

Kids can go to college in the US for much less than $30k/year. It won't be the top tier schools and won't be the fun party life, but it can be done. Even grad school is only costing me $7k/yr, full time, no scholarships.

 

[mjkacmom]

the amount of expensive nearly new furniture and electronics that fill dozens upon dozens of dumpsters and litter the streets for garbage pickup at the end of the school year near the universities near us (we have 3 major and a couple of extension all in close proximity) is OBSCENE. brand new household appliances-still in the taped shut original boxes just tossed out. i get that it can be expensive to store stuff over the 3 month summer break if you are dorming or moving from one apartment to another but it can't exceed the cost of entirely refurnishing. one of the local furniture stores that specializes in high end mattresses makes a killing every august when the private university students come in and drop a grand on a single bed mattress (no box b/c their dorm beds don't use them) only to toss them out the following may and repurchase again in august. heck-dh and i were thrilled when we were able to upgrade our futon to a bargain real matt and box springs once we got f/t jobs.

Ds moved into his room in his frat house and just used the furniture the last guy left. He’s not picky.

 

[mjkacmom]

Kids can go to college in the US for much less than $30k/year. It won't be the top tier schools and won't be the fun party life, but it can be done. Even grad school is only costing me $7k/yr, full time, no scholarships.

Yes, if they commute. Public schools in my state range from $7300 - $12,600 without room and board, so it depends where you live. That $7300 college is not well ranked and 1 1/2 hours away.

 

[RamblingMad]

Ds moved into his room in his frat house and just used the furniture the last guy left. He’s not picky.

Who is paying for his frat dues?

 

[SteveH]

Right now the kids don't really have any earning power so everything they have is compliments of Mom and Dad. So it's not really a question of how much we "help" them but how much we "give" them. But soon we'll be talking cars, college, etc. I would be happy to "help" with these expenses, but DH feels they need to figure out how to pay for these on their own. I see his point; I don't want them to be lazy and entitled and expect life to be easy.

So here is my 2¢ worth on this. My wife and I talked about our plans to when our first child was born. Both my wife and I had some help, with our first car and college. But the car was only about $1000, for our boys we said we would help with their first car or another major expense. My oldest didn't want a car and chose something else, youngest wanted a laptop (already had a pretty new desktop computer). For college we help with the room & board for the first two year, we helps some with the cost of school but we do not pay it all. We both felt strongly that college is theirs, not ours. We wanted more then a bit of skin in the game we wanted them to own it.

...But she now says s planning for grad school and we're not sure how far we're willing to go assisting with school since we never thought that far ahead.

We have one in grad school. This was 90% on him, the support we've provided has been getting him there and some food support, but school is on him. Thankfully he's in a high demand area of work and summers he's pulled in some great wages started at $22 and now up to $37/hour. When I was in grad school I chose to live at my Dad's house, everything else was on me. Struggled more that time then any other, but probably grew the most and learned the value of money better then any other time. I think that's what made it so worth while.

 

[Searc]

My DD lives at a residential arts school. She has been living away from home since she was 13. She is extremely hard working and IMO way too hard on herself. If I could pay for college for her (minus any scholarships because she does have excellent grades and test scores) I would happily do that and provide her a safe car (possibly new if I could afford it).

Right now her allowance is $25 a week. She uses that to supplement the meal plan and is careful with her money. She obviously is expected to care for herself (laundry, passing dorm inspection etc) and work hard at her academics. On weekends when she comes home (normally every other) she does chores (cutting grass, dishes, babysitting, scrubbing kitchen etc). She is extremely grateful and never ever greedy. She is the type of kid who saves up their allowance to buy me an amazingly perfect Christmas gift (where she really put some effort in) and also when I was just in the hospital used her money to send me flowers.

I wish I could do more for her. She is a really good kid. If I could pay for the college education I would in a heartbeat. I know her. She would continue to work hard.

I assume that residential arts school is not free.

 

[tzolkin]

We are of the mindset of "helping" as little as possible.

My husband and I both came from poor families who were unable to help us in any way. Not only did our parents not pay for our college educations, they didn't even pay for SATs or application fees. I even did my parents taxes myself so that I could complete the FAFSA in a more timely manner each year. We are both very highly functioning adults and attribute most of our successes to the skills we needed to learn in order to take care of everything ourselves.

We have had conversations over the years about how our children just think this is "normal life" (living in a nice home, being able to travel, etc). On the one hand it's nice that they haven't experienced struggle, we also want them to understand working for what you have.

Our oldest (20) has always paid for all of her own needs and our middle daughter just got a cell phone a few months ago because she now has a job and can afford to pay for it. Most people we know in their late 20s (several who are married) have parents who pay for at least a few things for them (car insurance, phone, student loans, etc). Even when we say that our oldest pays for all of her own expenses (she has her own apartment, no roommates), they still assume that we must be covering something and can't really wrap their heads around the idea that we really don't pay for her phone, insurance, car, food, or even health expenses.

We just believe that it is important for her to be able to learn to be self-sufficient and to figure out what "living within her means" really entails. If a young person only makes $20k a year, but thinks that everyone can afford new clothes, eating out, etc on that salary (because their parents are paying many of their expenses) then I think they wind up with a warped sense of reality. Plus, what motivation will they have to save/advance/etc if they already have disposable money at their current income level?

That said, we do occasionally help in other ways that don't impact her day-to-day living. For example, she has been paying us back a monthly amount for her car (we purchased with cash). I think it was important for her to figure out a way to be able to afford it, but we are really just setting the money aside and plan to give it to her as a down payment whenever she needs to purchase another car. (She doesn't know that) We have also given her a chunk of money to put toward a debt (student loan, medical expense, etc). Again, she has set herself up with a method of paying that she can afford, but our gifts will just accelerate when she will have those paid off. By then she will have learned how to budget $X per month toward that expense, so hopefully she can just continue budgeting that same amount into savings.

 

[dreamer17555]

I assume that residential arts school is not free.

For out of state students it’s almost 25k per year. For in state (like my DD) it’s under 2k including room and board, books, etc. we would spend that much having her at home and three times that to pay for arts lessons that are included at her school. We feel extremely grateful that she was accepted and the school has even given her grants for summer arts training.

 

[mjkacmom]

Who is paying for his frat dues?

Totally him, he just pledged a second fraternity (the first is a business one). He pays rent, food, frat dues, formal fees, he works two jobs (manager of intramural/club refs and at a garden center, he has been a summer manager for 5 years for one at home). He worked opening to closing at the one at home over his spring break. Over the summer he worked 11 hour days pretty much 7 days a week. He liked the overtime.

 

[Colleen27]

This just isn’t true. Both of my boys did dual enrollment at the 3rd largest university in our state where the tuition + fees per semester is $2500. This is totally doable for a student to pay themselves with a part time job. No student loan required. And, you can get a great degree there, they are the leader in certain career choices.

It is all about choices and personal responsibility. We made our kids go to school instate where tuition is free or almost free. We could have paid the $50,000 per year for them to go out of state, but that just isn’t smart when we have great, almost free universities in Georgia.

But certainly you understand that those options vary from place to place? In state tuition at the middling, non-selective public unis in my state is about $15K per year. Even community college costs more than you're describing above! There is no "free or almost free" for kids in my state unless they're under the income limits for some of the more generous tuition assistance programs like the one at U of Mich AND strong enough students to get in there (not an easy feat - two of the kids in the top 10 of DD's class were rejected). And of course, talking about tuition & fees only assumes that everyone lives within a reasonable commuting distance of a public university, which is obviously not the case.

Talking about the exceptions don't negate the rule, and in the U.S., the rule is that college tuition is increasing far faster than either wages or inflation. Some students will be able to make choices that allow them to escape the effects of those changes, but many won't.

the amount of expensive nearly new furniture and electronics that fill dozens upon dozens of dumpsters and litter the streets for garbage pickup at the end of the school year near the universities near us (we have 3 major and a couple of extension all in close proximity) is OBSCENE. brand new household appliances-still in the taped shut original boxes just tossed out. i get that it can be expensive to store stuff over the 3 month summer break if you are dorming or moving from one apartment to another but it can't exceed the cost of entirely refurnishing. one of the local furniture stores that specializes in high end mattresses makes a killing every august when the private university students come in and drop a grand on a single bed mattress (no box b/c their dorm beds don't use them) only to toss them out the following may and repurchase again in august. heck-dh and i were thrilled when we were able to upgrade our futon to a bargain real matt and box springs once we got f/t jobs.

But what percentage of students does that obscenity really represent? And what does their big picture look like? Do they throw those things out because they just don't care about the money spent on them, or do they do it because they live across the country (or the world) and moving everything to/from home every year would cost even more? My daughter is heading to college in San Francisco in the fall, and I certainly don't plan to move all of her belongings home every summer (we're in the Detroit area). She'll be flying home for breaks with what she can pack in her suitcases. We'll look for a storage unit or try to work something out with our relatives in the area for the dorm furnishings, but since she's not going to have anything high end, even replacing things every year would likely be cheaper than moving it all home and back. It is the waste involved in that plan that will likely keep me from doing it - it wouldn't be so bad if the items were donated somewhere that they'd be useful, but I'd pay more for a storage unit than the stuff is worth before I tossed perfectly good things in a dumpster.

Kids can go to college in the US for much less than $30k/year. It won't be the top tier schools and won't be the fun party life, but it can be done. Even grad school is only costing me $7k/yr, full time, no scholarships.

In some places. If you live close enough to a university to commute. And you can get into the local college. It is hardly a universal truth.

I think grad schools sometimes work harder to be competitive than undergrad universities. My graduate tuition will be significantly less than my undergrad was, at least on a per-semester basis (the difference in what counts as full time, of course, makes all the difference), and of course, those costs don't factor in as many of the extras and amenities that factor into undergrad tuition rates.

 

[cvjw]

But certainly you understand that those options vary from place to place? In state tuition at the middling, non-selective public unis in my state is about $15K per year. Even community college costs more than you're describing above! There is no "free or almost free" for kids in my state unless they're under the income limits for some of the more generous tuition assistance programs like the one at U of Mich AND strong enough students to get in there (not an easy feat - two of the kids in the top 10 of DD's class were rejected). And of course, talking about tuition & fees only assumes that everyone lives within a reasonable commuting distance of a public university, which is obviously not the case.

Talking about the exceptions don't negate the rule, and in the U.S., the rule is that college tuition is increasing far faster than either wages or inflation. Some students will be able to make choices that allow them to escape the effects of those changes, but many won't.

Sorry, but everyone has choices. You can choose to go into debt to pay $50,000 a year for college or you can choose not to. There are always other options. You can go to a cheaper university for 2 years and then transfer to a more elite school. You can go to a trade school. You can go into the armed services and go to school for free. You may not like the other options, but they are other options.

 

[starry_solo]

the amount of expensive nearly new furniture and electronics that fill dozens upon dozens of dumpsters and litter the streets for garbage pickup at the end of the school year near the universities near us (we have 3 major and a couple of extension all in close proximity) is OBSCENE. brand new household appliances-still in the taped shut original boxes just tossed out. i get that it can be expensive to store stuff over the 3 month summer break if you are dorming or moving from one apartment to another but it can't exceed the cost of entirely refurnishing. one of the local furniture stores that specializes in high end mattresses makes a killing every august when the private university students come in and drop a grand on a single bed mattress (no box b/c their dorm beds don't use them) only to toss them out the following may and repurchase again in august. heck-dh and i were thrilled when we were able to upgrade our futon to a bargain real matt and box springs once we got f/t jobs.

I'd be renting a moving truck, picking those up, and selling them, lol. Well, except the mattresses unless local shelters would take them...