Sort of a S/O. How much do you think "helping" your children is actually "helping?"

[pixiedustedme]

The thread about "life-changing" amounts of money got me thinking abut what I WOULD do if I came into a life-changing sum of money. Helping your children seems to be a common response on that thread.

How much help do you think is actually helpful as opposed to doing too much for your children? Obviously something like the Lori Laughlin affair is going too far, but how far do you think you can go to help your kids before it becomes more detrimental than beneficial?

My husband and I differ on this sometimes. We both grew up with less than what we have now, and sometimes what I view as giving our children opportunities we didn't have, he views as spoiling them. I'm talking about things like summer camps and extracurricular activities, but also material things to an extent. These are things we can very easily afford.

Right now the kids don't really have any earning power so everything they have is compliments of Mom and Dad. So it's not really a question of how much we "help" them but how much we "give" them. But soon we'll be talking cars, college, etc. I would be happy to "help" with these expenses, but DH feels they need to figure out how to pay for these on their own. I see his point; I don't want them to be lazy and entitled and expect life to be easy. But if we can afford to make life easier for them than it was for us, should we?

What do you think? How much would you be wiling to "help" or give your kids if money weren't really much of a factor. For those of you who went through something of a struggle during the "lean years" when you were just starting out (like DH and I both did!) but are doing well now, do you think those difficult years made you stronger and were worth the struggle? Do you think you would have turned out as well if someone had been there to help out when your car needed brakes or your new job required a wardrobe you couldn't afford? How much should we let our kids struggle when we can afford to help?

You would give your children a big leg-up economically by paying for their college, instead of making them rack up debt in the form of student loans. Funding their education is the best way to genuinely help them.

 

[fortwildernessishome]

This brings up a good point: from what distance are people willing to, or not willing to, commute?

I've seen people here say they have a university near their homes that they can walk to.

Some people say 30 minutes is reasonable.

I know plenty of people who've commuted an hour or more. Right now DS's girlfriend has a 75 minute commute one way to school, longer with traffic. At one open house at college I met the parents of a girl who was going to be commuting by train from out of state, well over an hour and a half commute every day.

Millions of students commute.

So I think a lot of it depends.

So true! I think it comes down to what you are comfortable with.


For my kids, it would have been an 1 1/2 for one and an little under 2 for the other. For us personally, that commute was not an option. But, I agree that is a good option for many, especially when it comes down to either going to college and doing a long commute or not getting to go to college at all. Thankfully, for my kids, they didn't have to make that decision. I am especially thankful that we didn't have to go that route, because my oldest who was an engineer major (he has graduated) spent many a night in group study sessions that went deep into the evening. And both my boys played some intermural sports, which were also quite late at night! (10:00 pm floor hockey games)

But having said all of that, I agree that commuting is an option for many.

 

[MrsPete]

Every dual enrollment class my kids have taken in high school have not been accepted by their colleges.

Did you check ahead of time -- the information is available online, though it's very cumbersome to dig through the details, especially if you don't know what university you'll eventually attend -- to see that the classes would be accepted? We did (oh, the spreadsheets we kept), and 100% of my daughter's dual enrollment classes and community college classes were accepted.

I don’t know if it’s the same elsewhere, but RA positions at both Dd and ds’s universities were wanted by many, Dd did make it to the final round sophomore year but didn’t get it, so she moved off campus.

On paper Mrs. Pete's ideas sound amazing, but none would have worked for my kids in our area ... Additionally, she mentions the military reserves, but that's not always a given either.

The point isn't that every affordable option is available to everyone. It's that affordable options are out there for those that need them and are willing to stretch themselves beyond just looking at specific options.

We honestly paid less than anticipated for college because we looked hard for ways to cut costs. Too many people get a fatalistic view and pay more than they need to.

Yep, what'd I say? Someone will say that these ideas won't work for them, so we might as well throw out the whole concept. I can't anticipate every idea that'll work for your child, but I'm sure that SOMETHING will work. You have to be willing to search out those ideas.

I had a friend who did the live-in-a-funeral home thing mentioned earlier in this thread (I'm surprised to see it here -- I thought it was a rather unusual situation). I had two friends who were live-in babysitters. I knew two guys who had jobs similar to RAs ... but instead they were maintenance people. Choices are available, but you have to search for them.

DisKat gets it. Our experience was the same: we paid less than anticipated for college.

I like the people that brag about working to pay their own tuition back when it was $100 a semester, now its $6000.

Exaggeration on two fronts:

- I'm near retirement, and tuition was nowhere near $100 when I was in college ... and minimum wage was $3.35.
- My daughter's tuition is roughly $3500/semester. Obviously that's not the whole story, but it does include textbooks.

 

[Colleen27]

Options to lower the cost of college exist everywhere:
- Take dual-enrollment classes in high school
- Take online classes so you don't have to pay for housing
- Join the military reserves
- Become an RA to lower the cost of housing during college

That's just a few ways. Someone will say, "Oh, but none of those would work for me" -- the list could go on. If you're looking for ways to make college affordable, you will find a way.

If you live in a place where college is expensive, likely the wages are high as well.

The thing is, while there are ways that some individuals can sometimes work around high college costs, none of that negates the systemic-level problem of college becoming both more necessary and less affordable at the same time. That is going to have an impact on whole generations, even if it doesn't hit every person in that generation equally.

My daughter has tried to employ some of those strategies, with limited success - AP and dual enrollment classes aren't accepted for credit at most of the schools she's applied to, though they are helpful for placement purposes at the one I think she is going to choose and will let her jump into classes in her field sooner. She plans to apply to RA as an upperclassman, but hundreds of students apply for a handful of RA positions so we know that's a long shot at reducing her college costs. And online classes only save on housing if you're talking about an entirely online degree, rather than the odd online class taken as part of a traditional degree program. That's only a solution for fields that don't require a great deal of hands-on learning - great for an accounting major but not so much for a biology major - and virtually negates the networking aspect of earning a degree.

And as far as a relationship between college costs and wages, I certainly don't see it. I think the relationship has more to do with political/economic climate and willingness to invest in education than it does with local wages or cost of living. I'm in Michigan, where wages haven't yet recovered from the recessions and the cost of living in most of the state is below national averages. Our college costs are high not because of the cost of living but because of years of slashed state support for education.

 

[cabanafrau]

The thing is, while there are ways that some individuals can sometimes work around high college costs, none of that negates the systemic-level problem of college becoming both more necessary and less affordable at the same time. That is going to have an impact on whole generations, even if it doesn't hit every person in that generation equally.

My daughter has tried to employ some of those strategies, with limited success - AP and dual enrollment classes aren't accepted for credit at most of the schools she's applied to, though they are helpful for placement purposes at the one I think she is going to choose and will let her jump into classes in her field sooner. She plans to apply to RA as an upperclassman, but hundreds of students apply for a handful of RA positions so we know that's a long shot at reducing her college costs. And online classes only save on housing if you're talking about an entirely online degree, rather than the odd online class taken as part of a traditional degree program. That's only a solution for fields that don't require a great deal of hands-on learning - great for an accounting major but not so much for a biology major - and virtually negates the networking aspect of earning a degree.

And as far as a relationship between college costs and wages, I certainly don't see it. I think the relationship has more to do with political/economic climate and willingness to invest in education than it does with local wages or cost of living. I'm in Michigan, where wages haven't yet recovered from the recessions and the cost of living in most of the state is below national averages. Our college costs are high not because of the cost of living but because of years of slashed state support for education.

Something to be aware of in regard to AP credits is whether they have an impact at the graduate school level if that is expected to be part of the plan. I'm aware of several students who had their AP credit accepted, received their undergrad degree and when they made the move towards a graduate degree were faced with a status of admitted with the proviso that those credits would have to be completed, preferably in their first semester, of graduate school. This involved students from several high schools in many states, obtained their under graduate degrees from different schools and were applying to different graduate schools. I know many others who completed undergrad early via AP credits and went onto grad school with no such provisions requested. My daughter had opted not to utilize her AP Calc credit for her undergraduate degree because she wanted to be sure she was absolutely on the same page with the methods being employed in her degree program. I thought that was silly, math is math. Turned out she was correct to be cautious because some things were done differently. Some of her classmates ran up against that roadblock and struggled.

 

[FairestOfThemAll37]

The thing is, while there are ways that some individuals can sometimes work around high college costs, none of that negates the systemic-level problem of college becoming both more necessary and less affordable at the same time. That is going to have an impact on whole generations, even if it doesn't hit every person in that generation equally.

My daughter has tried to employ some of those strategies, with limited success - AP and dual enrollment classes aren't accepted for credit at most of the schools she's applied to, though they are helpful for placement purposes at the one I think she is going to choose and will let her jump into classes in her field sooner. She plans to apply to RA as an upperclassman, but hundreds of students apply for a handful of RA positions so we know that's a long shot at reducing her college costs. And online classes only save on housing if you're talking about an entirely online degree, rather than the odd online class taken as part of a traditional degree program. That's only a solution for fields that don't require a great deal of hands-on learning - great for an accounting major but not so much for a biology major - and virtually negates the networking aspect of earning a degree.

And as far as a relationship between college costs and wages, I certainly don't see it. I think the relationship has more to do with political/economic climate and willingness to invest in education than it does with local wages or cost of living. I'm in Michigan, where wages haven't yet recovered from the recessions and the cost of living in most of the state is below national averages. Our college costs are high not because of the cost of living but because of years of slashed state support for education.

The first part of you Post makes an important point. I think a potentially problematic effect of the American notion of bootstrapping and individuality is that we tend to treat systemic issues as individual issues that can be overcome by anybody with enough “hard work.” By nature systemic issues cannot be fixed by individual action alone.

I think education and wages fall into this category. College degrees have become necessary for jobs that didn’t require them a couple decades ago. Yes, there are ways some people can find to go to college cheaper, but if that were possible for everybody we wouldn’t have the student debt issues we do. Student loan debts nearing $1.5 trillion and more adults than ever living with parents don’t happen because everybody is too entitled to look for other options.

I feel the same about many wage discussions, especially since everybody wants to blame millennials for being lazy and entitled. Sure, individuals can try to get better jobs to change their circumstance, but even if everybody had the aptitude to excel in school and the money go to college, our economy doesn’t support that many engineers, doctors, lawyers, or office professionals in general. We still need janitors and bus drivers and people working retail, etc.. There’d just be more debt and more people underemployed.

 

[longboard55]

Did you check ahead of time -- the information is available online, though it's very cumbersome to dig through the details, especially if you don't know what university you'll eventually attend -- to see that the classes would be accepted? We did (oh, the spreadsheets we kept), and 100% of my daughter's dual enrollment classes and community college classes were accepted.


Yep, what'd I say? Someone will say that these ideas won't work for them, so we might as well throw out the whole concept. I can't anticipate every idea that'll work for your child, but I'm sure that SOMETHING will work. You have to be willing to search out those ideas.

I had a friend who did the live-in-a-funeral home thing mentioned earlier in this thread (I'm surprised to see it here -- I thought it was a rather unusual situation). I had two friends who were live-in babysitters. I knew two guys who had jobs similar to RAs ... but instead they were maintenance people. Choices are available, but you have to search for them.

DisKat gets it. Our experience was the same: we paid less than anticipated for college.
Exaggeration on two fronts:

- I'm near retirement, and tuition was nowhere near $100 when I was in college ... and minimum wage was $3.35.
- My daughter's tuition is roughly $3500/semester. Obviously that's not the whole story, but it does include textbooks.

In the mid 70s a California State University tuition was $100 a semester, junior college was $25, the UCs were $600. Nothing has gone up at a faster rate than tuition

 

[barkley]

Exaggeration on two fronts:

- I'm near retirement, and tuition was nowhere near $100 when I was in college ... and minimum wage was $3.35.
- My daughter's tuition is roughly $3500/semester. Obviously that's not the whole story, but it does include textbooks.

just for the heck of it i ran the numbers on the california university i graduated from-

1985/cost of 1 years tuition-$1326 (not fees or books), minimum wage-$3.35 hr.

 

[fortwildernessishome]

- My daughter's tuition is roughly $3500/semester. Obviously that's not the whole story, but it does include textbooks.

I know you say, "that's not the whole story", so I am not sure how much more of the story there is, but $3500 per semester is an amazing price!!

State University here in NH, is $18,499 per year for in-state students, for tuition alone ($9,250 per semester) this does not include books.

 

[barkley]

I think a potentially problematic effect of the American notion of bootstrapping and individuality is that we tend to treat systemic issues as individual issues that can be overcome by anybody with enough “hard work.”

i'll add that the 'bootstrapping/hard work' being enough mentality as it pertains to a college education has, in my opinion, led to a mindset among many that ANY college is within their reach, that failing to go for one's dreams, wants and desires no matter the ultimate financial cost of one institution vs another is some kind of proof of self esteem and personal value.

Yes, there are ways some people can find to go to college cheaper, but if that were possible for everybody we wouldn’t have the student debt issues we do. Student loan debts nearing $1.5 trillion and more adults than ever living with parents don’t happen because everybody is too entitled to look for other options.

no it's not possible for everyone to go the cheapest route, but not everyone can or should even consider going the route of indebting themselves to the tune of high 5 if not low 6 figure student loans. the reality of life is-some things are affordable and some are not. some people have parents who can and will pay for these types of expenses but the bulk of americans weather or not they want to admit to it-cannot afford to. some degrees at certain colleges you make an investment in so that they pay off long term and you at least break even/better yet net greater income/recoup those lost years of saving those loan payments and it's lost interest earnings; but being high 5 figures in debt for a degree that garners a career (no matter how noble that career is) that will only pay a reasonable lifestyle's wage over one's lifetime is a no win proposition for anyone except for the lenders.

unpopular opinion i know, but no everyone can afford to go to every school and if there's not an affordable school then they may have to delay attending and pursuing that dream (many successful adults have received their degrees and entered their professions long after high school graduation).

 

[fortwildernessishome]

Mrs.Pete said [/QUOTE]=Yep, what'd I say? Someone will say that these ideas won't work for them, so we might as well throw out the whole concept. I can't anticipate every idea that'll work for your child, but I'm sure that SOMETHING will work. You have to be willing to search out those ideas.
.[/QUOTE]

No one is asking you to "anticipate every idea" and I would never suggest that anyone "might as well throw out the whole concept"!


My point was and still is, is that different areas of the country will MORE readily offer concepts that will work for any given student, and in other parts of the country there are less options for a cheap education.

Again, I am not complaining. I am happy with the choices we made regarding my kids education. Like anything in life, sometimes spending more is worth it. My kids commuting 1 1/2-2 hours wouldn't have been worth it to save on room and board. I understand for some, it is worth it. Probably like a Disney trip. Can you go for cheaper and stay off-site, maybe even quite a distance away and commute to the parks each day, of course. Some people will do that and it is worth it to them, because it is do it that way or not go at all. Others will say that concept isn't worth it to them and they would rather put the trip off a few years and save more money.

I highly doubt my civil engineer son would have graduated in four years (and therefore get into a high paying job after four years of college) if he was commuting. He spent a LOT of time studying and in study groups and if he was spending 4 hours per day commuting, he wouldn't have been able to do the things he was doing to graduate in four years.[/QUOTE]

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I highly doubt my civil engineer son would have graduated in four years (and therefore get into a high paying job after four years of college) if he was commuting. He spent a LOT of time studying and in study groups and if he was spending 4 hours per day commuting, he wouldn't have been able to do the things he was doing to graduate in four years.

I know engineering students (yes, even Civil!) who commute now successfully.

 

[longboard55]

I know engineering students (yes, even Civil!) who commute now successfully.

I was a civil engineering major, 42 years and I am trying to retire but they keep hounding me, maybe 2 slow years, 2009 and 1993. Its a pretty good major if you want a job.

 

[Colleen27]

The first part of you Post makes an important point. I think a potentially problematic effect of the American notion of bootstrapping and individuality is that we tend to treat systemic issues as individual issues that can be overcome by anybody with enough “hard work.” By nature systemic issues cannot be fixed by individual action alone.

I think education and wages fall into this category. College degrees have become necessary for jobs that didn’t require them a couple decades ago. Yes, there are ways some people can find to go to college cheaper, but if that were possible for everybody we wouldn’t have the student debt issues we do. Student loan debts nearing $1.5 trillion and more adults than ever living with parents don’t happen because everybody is too entitled to look for other options.

I feel the same about many wage discussions, especially since everybody wants to blame millennials for being lazy and entitled. Sure, individuals can try to get better jobs to change their circumstance, but even if everybody had the aptitude to excel in school and the money go to college, our economy doesn’t support that many engineers, doctors, lawyers, or office professionals in general. We still need janitors and bus drivers and people working retail, etc.. There’d just be more debt and more people underemployed.

Exactly. We tend to promote individual-level solutions to systemic-level problems in a lot of the biggest issues facing our society and economy, and then we hold up the exceptions as proof that the rule doesn't exist or only exists because of personal/moral failings in the majority of people (the "kids these days" syndrome). We seldom acknowledge the system for what it is: a competition for a shrinking number of opportunities for affordable college, good wages, quality health insurance, etc. in which a significant number of people HAVE to be "losers" just based on sheer numbers.

unpopular opinion i know, but no everyone can afford to go to every school and if there's not an affordable school then they may have to delay attending and pursuing that dream (many successful adults have received their degrees and entered their professions long after high school graduation).

But that is also a losing proposition when you consider current economic trends. The cost of the degree is going to go up much faster than the would-be student's earnings, which in fact may not go up at all (HS grads being the biggest losers in terms of wage stagnation), and earning that degree at 30 or 40 will give a much lower return on investment for the much higher cost. If the prospect is 100K for college now vs. 200K for college in a decade (US News & World Reports projection for 2030), time isn't going to make that degree more attainable on the wages a high school grad can earn even without accounting for the fact that delaying by a decade means having more "adult" costs to balance on top of the costs of college.

 

[Colleen27]

just for the heck of it i ran the numbers on the california university i graduated from-

1985/cost of 1 years tuition-$1326 (not fees or books), minimum wage-$3.35 hr.

How do current numbers compare?

 

[fortwildernessishome]

I know engineering students (yes, even Civil!) who commute now successfully.

Oh, I am sure!!! I just know that mine would have struggled and most likely wouldn't have graduated in four years if he did. He was an average student, who worked his butt off and was always looking for and joining study groups.

In our situation it wouldn't have been worth the savings to have him commute four hours a day. Again, I don't doubt that it can be done and that lots of people do it!!

 

[Dakota731]

We need to teach our kids to be smart when choosing a college and a major. I've seen too many of my kids' friends spending $40,000 a year or more for music industry, art history or sports management majors from a pricey university . And surprise surprise they've graduated six figures in debt and are now paying back student loans while working at Kohls or Starbucks. We paid our kids tuition but it had to be the most economical schools for the majors they chose (two are in medicine and one in engineering) Community or state schools can mean the difference in being in debt for the rest of your life or being debt free. Trade schools are a great option too. Our country is in great need of electricians, plumbers etc which often earn more than college grads.

 

[cvjw]

I know you say, "that's not the whole story", so I am not sure how much more of the story there is, but $3500 per semester is an amazing price!!

State University here in NH, is $18,499 per year for in-state students, for tuition alone ($9,250 per semester) this does not include books.

University of Georgia is less than $6000 per semester for tuition and fees. If a student made higher than a 3.0 in high school, the Georgia lottery pays all or most of that tuition cost. My oldest son paid no tuition for his undergraduate and graduate degrees because of his high school grades and SAT scores.

 

[fortwildernessishome]

University of Georgia is less than $6000 per semester for tuition and fees. If a student made higher than a 3.0 in high school, the Georgia lottery pays all or most of that tuition cost. My oldest son paid no tuition for his undergraduate and graduate degrees because of his high school grades and SAT scores.

WOW, that is awesome!!! What an unbelievable opportunity for kids living in Georgia!! We would have been all over that deal if we lived in Georgia or if anything like that was available in NH!!!

This goes back to what I said earlier in this thread; kids living in different parts of the country are going to have options available to them that are not available to everyone else!

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Typically what I see end up as an issue is the constant safety net, the swooping in and always helping in a variety of ways, etc. Knowing you have supportive parents is different than having your parents always there to catch you, always there to fix your problems. You gotta learn to fly at some point and some parents even as helpful as they want to be, as protective as they want to be end up clipping the wings.