Sooo many questions

[disneyspinedoc]

So I am thinking of buying BLT resale and wondering a few things.

1. Does anyone know if there’s an easy to access records of prior years resale prices for BLT? I’m curious on the trend and how low it’s gone for per point since 2009ish when we had our last big recession.

2. What language does Disney use to be able to do sneaky crap to your membership? It seems like they are restricting more and more and screwing people over. Ie. New resale owners can’t get blue card or stay at newer resorts.
What if they stop allowing owners to rent their points?? Is that possible?

3. Do people actually own DVC and end up staying at their DVC resort but go to Universal because their kids outgrew Disney? Regrets?

4. For those of you who sold, how many years did you keep your membership?

 

[tjkraz]

So I am thinking of buying BLT resale and wondering a few things.

1. Does anyone know if there’s an easy to access records of prior years resale prices for BLT? I’m curious on the trend and how low it’s gone for per point since 2009ish when we had our last big recession.

I'm not aware of any source for that info. Plus direct prices were nearly half of what they are today and the resale restrictions didn't apply. Hard to take so many changes and apply them to prices from 13-14 years ago.

2. What language does Disney use to be able to do sneaky crap to your membership? It seems like they are restricting more and more and screwing people over. Ie. New resale owners can’t get blue card or stay at newer resorts.
What if they stop allowing owners to rent their points?? Is that possible?

DVC cannot stop renting but they could make it more difficult. Personal opinion: I wouldn't buy any more points than you comfortably feel you can use.

There is a lot of legalese in the docs which could potentially be exploited. Owners currently have a 4-month booking priority at their Home resorts but that's only guaranteed to be 1 month. you'll have to judge for yourself whether Disney would go extremes to add other restrictions.

I would not expect resale owners to gain any perks going forward other than the ability to stay at their home resort + others they're eligible to trade into. DVC's goal is to sell direct points and they're using leverage to further that goal. All of the member perks are paid for by Disney/DVC so there's no loss to owners. They're basically saying "if you buy points from us, you get this extra stuff. Buy elsewhere and you don't."

3. Do people actually own DVC and end up staying at their DVC resort but go to Universal because their kids outgrew Disney? Regrets?

Sure, at times.

4. For those of you who sold, how many years did you keep your membership?

I think it's more common for owners to add/sell points as their vacation needs vary. We've been owners for 20 years. Started at 150 points. Expanded to 300. Went down to 200. Now we're at 400. If our travel plans drop off again, we'll sell some of what we have now.

I'm sure there are families who out-grow Disney entirely. I wouldn't recommend buying unless you realistically expect to use the points for at least 10 years. If you have older children and you + partner don't feel you are long term "Disney" people, I would not recommend buying. Kids are fickle. Impossible to know how their feelings will change in the coming years.

 

[stwaldman]

Won't rehash the whole discussion because I thought the first replay was fair in all points, but my two cents are

1. BLT was still being built in the last recession, so honestly even any historical data isnt very telling of the current DVC market or a future recession

2. A lot of these issues are well covered in the boards or in the DIS or similar podcasts, but to the first replyers point, Disney still has an interest in keeping the product viable for new buyers. Their restrictions tend to be more geared towards discouraging resale sales as opposed to discouraging the way owners use their existing points.

3. My family is young, but there's plenty of anecdotal evidence (and I'm sure data too) supporting that this is common, particularly for DVC owners who don't feel like theyre paying for the right to be on Disney property the way a cash stay might feel

4. Same as first reply, we've already done a bit of contract trading to meet our short and medium term needs, and we're relatively new owners. I think the DVC Resale Mkt folks on other podcasts have suggested many people tend to sell in the 7-10 year range of ownership which is why a lot of BLT contracts hit the market in recent years and may be turning over to "second owners". That said, I'm not sure if there is publicly available data on some of those numbers.

 

[kilik64]

For question 1 there’s a couple you could go through. Dvc resale market does a monthly report on their own sales. Not sure how far back it goes but should be able to get last couple of years. They are largest resale by volume so while not the whole market, gives at least a good idea.

The rofr thread goes back pretty far I think so could go through that too. But this will have an inherently small and possibly skewed set of data since posters for the rofr thread ain’t your average joe buying resale ya know?

 

[AstroBlasters]

So I am thinking of buying BLT resale and wondering a few things.

1. Does anyone know if there’s an easy to access records of prior years resale prices for BLT? I’m curious on the trend and how low it’s gone for per point since 2009ish when we had our last big recession.

2. What language does Disney use to be able to do sneaky crap to your membership? It seems like they are restricting more and more and screwing people over. Ie. New resale owners can’t get blue card or stay at newer resorts.
What if they stop allowing owners to rent their points?? Is that possible?

3. Do people actually own DVC and end up staying at their DVC resort but go to Universal because their kids outgrew Disney? Regrets?

4. For those of you who sold, how many years did you keep your membership?

https://www.dvcresalemarket.com/blog/dvc-resale-average-sales-prices-for-december-2020/

Look and see what the prices did during 2020, which was our last recession.

Also, 2009 was a financial crisis, which is different than a typical business cycle recession.

However, one could argue the contracts were actually more valuable in the past because they had more total lifetime points. (I.E if I buy a 200 point VGC contract now then I am getting 200 points until 2026 or 7600 points. The same contract in 2012 would have had 9600 points).

 

[DVCsloth]

2. What language does Disney use to be able to do sneaky crap to your membership?

One big thing IMO that I didn't know about was the fact that they could add BPK hotel rooms to the VGF association. I guess they kind of did it before when they added the Tree Houses to SSR. I did read through the documents when I bought, but I probably wouldn't have known what it meant when I read it anyways. I think it will be more pressure on the Deluxe Studios and hoping it won't end up making the 1 BR difficult to book.

 

[gscott8075]

We owned for 18 years. My daughters were 5 and 7 and they outgrew it. The rule changes become onerous for us. Since we sold, the new Riveria restrictions have confirmed to us that we made the right choice. "You can visit any DVC resort was a basic - and now that's not accurate and will continue as more are added. They have demonstrated they are constricting wherever possible to kill the resale market. They have demonstrated that they can and will change the rules to maximize their position.

At HHI, they stopped allowing personal kayaks - they said it was protect the wetlands of the marsh - yet they launch their own several times a day. And, there is a rental place across the way. That was the final straw for us.

After we sold, they even ripped up the 'history' of the resort - that Shadow, a golden retriever, was living on the island and stayed when it was built. Shadow and a cast member named Blu Crabbe were part of the resorts' story. They terminated him and deleted all references to Shadow. Now Pluto is there. It sounds silly - but to the families who go to the resort, I can assure you that those two were part of the experience. Almost like removing Mickey from Disney World.

The cost of dues have increased far faster than inflation. We were $3.50 or so in 2001 and now they are well over $10. Annual dues increased from $700 to over $2000. That's real money.

The cost of points - we paid $13,000 for 200 points for HHI - BLT looks to be $35,000 for 200 points - that's a healthy down payment on a beach front condo.

There was something about DVC that made it special and different - I think that luster is gone. We are going on 12th Disney cruise next week - our first in seven years - I may feel the same way about that, too.

 

[AstroBlasters]

We owned for 18 years. My daughters were 5 and 7 and they outgrew it. The rule changes become onerous for us. Since we sold, the new Riveria restrictions have confirmed to us that we made the right choice. "You can visit any DVC resort was a basic - and now that's not accurate and will continue as more are added. They have demonstrated they are constricting wherever possible to kill the resale market. They have demonstrated that they can and will change the rules to maximize their position.

At HHI, they stopped allowing personal kayaks - they said it was protect the wetlands of the marsh - yet they launch their own several times a day. And, there is a rental place across the way. That was the final straw for us.

After we sold, they even ripped up the 'history' of the resort - that Shadow, a golden retriever, was living on the island and stayed when it was built. Shadow and a cast member named Blu Crabbe were part of the resorts' story. They terminated him and deleted all references to Shadow. Now Pluto is there. It sounds silly - but to the families who go to the resort, I can assure you that those two were part of the experience. Almost like removing Mickey from Disney World.

The cost of dues have increased far faster than inflation. We were $3.50 or so in 2001 and now they are well over $10. Annual dues increased from $700 to over $2000. That's real money.

The cost of points - we paid $13,000 for 200 points for HHI - BLT looks to be $35,000 for 200 points - that's a healthy down payment on a beach front condo.

There was something about DVC that made it special and different - I think that luster is gone. We are going on 12th Disney cruise next week - our first in seven years - I may feel the same way about that, too.

Every new beginning comes from some other beginning’s end….

Also, the dues calculation referenced in your note is an average annual increase of 4.88% per year. I estimated 5% annual increases when deciding how much I was willing to pay for a resale contract, so it’s nice to know I wasn’t too far off

 

[BruinEd03]

So I am thinking of buying BLT resale and wondering a few things.

1. Does anyone know if there’s an easy to access records of prior years resale prices for BLT? I’m curious on the trend and how low it’s gone for per point since 2009ish when we had our last big recession.

2. What language does Disney use to be able to do sneaky crap to your membership? It seems like they are restricting more and more and screwing people over. Ie. New resale owners can’t get blue card or stay at newer resorts.
What if they stop allowing owners to rent their points?? Is that possible?

3. Do people actually own DVC and end up staying at their DVC resort but go to Universal because their kids outgrew Disney? Regrets?

4. For those of you who sold, how many years did you keep your membership?

For #2. You are buying discounted room stays. That's the legal language and what they promise you. Anything else they provide you is just icing on the cake (e.g., pool hopping, lounge access, etc.). Not that they are promising you much for resale anyways. If you think of it as just discounted rooms, you won't be disappointed.

As for rentals, I doubt they could prohibit it because it's a real estate deed.

 

[gscott8075]

As for rentals, I doubt they could prohibit it because it's a real estate deed.

The DVC Condo Owners Board (which is composed 100% Disney employees) could simply add a rule prohibiting rental of points.

 

[disneyspinedoc]

One big thing IMO that I didn't know about was the fact that they could add BPK hotel rooms to the VGF association. I guess they kind of did it before when they added the Tree Houses to SSR. I did read through the documents when I bought, but I probably wouldn't have known what it meant when I read it anyways. I think it will be more pressure on the Deluxe Studios and hoping it won't end up making the 1 BR difficult to book.

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a BPK hotel room?

 

[stwaldman]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a BPK hotel room?

It's the VGF expansion that was converted hotel rooms as opposed to proper villas and suites as some expect of DVC, which caused an issue where the population of room types is now more skewed towards hotel style rooms at VGF. A lot of historical DVC owners don't love this change and what it did to the room mix because there's a fear new owners will book up the larger villas (as is their right to) but the population of rooms saw no increase in large villas style rooms.

It's a fair issue to raise, although as somebody who brought two people on our last trip who weren't going to share a bed and I wasn't that enthused for even a Murphy bed for, those rooms were convenient for us. But that's not going to be true for all travelers, and definitely was a turnoff to people who buy solely to use the villas.

 

[miTnosnhoJ]

Checking Disney Resales: (This if for Grand Floridian, but you can easily modify it to check Bay Lake)

Go to Orange County Comptroller's Site Here:
https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/

Click ACCEPT to accept the disclaimer.

Now you should see the Document Search interface

Enter a Start and End date for your search

Uncheck the box to enable search for specific document types. Choose "Deeds"

Click "Advanced"

In the Legal Remarks field, type "Grand Floridian". Note: you might get some miscellaneous extra stuff using this search. If you want to narrow the search, you can type "TS: VILLAS AT DISNEY S GRAND FLORIDIAN RESORT " in the legal remarks field. I would try both just to make sure you don't miss anything.

This will give you a list of all the Deeds recorded in the period of time you specified above.

Now it gets a little tricky.

Disney Direct Sales will have "DISNEY VACATION DEVELOPMENT INC" as the Grantor. Resales will have someone's name, or a husband and wife, or their trust, etc.

Over on the right, you will see where you can click to "View Image". This will enable you to see a specific deed.

You will want to scrutinize the deed to find out the selling price and the number of points. Many title companies will include both of these.

However, some title companies, and Disney, will put in "$10 and other valuable presents" for the sales price, so you have to do some more digging.

If you can find the number of points attached to the contract, you can calculate the sales price by looking at the Document Deed Tax. The Document Deed Tax is .70 % amount of the sales price. So if you know the amount of the document deed tax, you can divide by .007 to get the purchase price (plus or minus a few $).

Now that you know the purchase price, you divide by the number of points to get a price per point. For a resale deed, you might see a statement like "Purchaser's ownership interest shall be symbolized as 125". This means they bought a contract with 125 points.

Deeds with Disney Vacation Development as Grantor may not show the number of points, but the price for Direct Sales is generally published by Disney.

If you see a document tax of $0.00, it usually means a gratuitous transfer, such as a transfer within a family, or from a husband and wife to their living trust, etc.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Sorry for my ignorance but what is a BPK hotel room?

BPK = Big Pine Key: the name of the building they converted to “Resort Studios”.

 

[tom1944]

Checking Disney Resales: (This if for Grand Floridian, but you can easily modify it to check Bay Lake)

Go to Orange County Comptroller's Site Here:
https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/

Click ACCEPT to accept the disclaimer.

Now you should see the Document Search interface

Enter a Start and End date for your search

Uncheck the box to enable search for specific document types. Choose "Deeds"

Click "Advanced"

In the Legal Remarks field, type "Grand Floridian". Note: you might get some miscellaneous extra stuff using this search. If you want to narrow the search, you can type "TS: VILLAS AT DISNEY S GRAND FLORIDIAN RESORT " in the legal remarks field. I would try both just to make sure you don't miss anything.

This will give you a list of all the Deeds recorded in the period of time you specified above.

Now it gets a little tricky.

Disney Direct Sales will have "DISNEY VACATION DEVELOPMENT INC" as the Grantor. Resales will have someone's name, or a husband and wife, or their trust, etc.

Over on the right, you will see where you can click to "View Image". This will enable you to see a specific deed.

You will want to scrutinize the deed to find out the selling price and the number of points. Many title companies will include both of these.

However, some title companies, and Disney, will put in "$10 and other valuable presents" for the sales price, so you have to do some more digging.

If you can find the number of points attached to the contract, you can calculate the sales price by looking at the Document Deed Tax. The Document Deed Tax is .70 % amount of the sales price. So if you know the amount of the document deed tax, you can divide by .007 to get the purchase price (plus or minus a few $).

Now that you know the purchase price, you divide by the number of points to get a price per point. For a resale deed, you might see a statement like "Purchaser's ownership interest shall be symbolized as 125". This means they bought a contract with 125 points.

Deeds with Disney Vacation Development as Grantor may not show the number of points, but the price for Direct Sales is generally published by Disney.

If you see a document tax of $0.00, it usually means a gratuitous transfer, such as a transfer within a family, or from a husband and wife to their living trust, etc.

I am seeing .5601% interest in. Would that be the percentage of total points available for sale?

 

[lorie13]

Here are some examples from July 2010, I just happened to have saved these emails from a broker.


Bay Lake Towers Membership expires 2060 - Annual Dues $3.78 per point

160 points. September use year. 254 points coming on 9/1/10 (24 + 160 banked
points from 2009 + 70 borrowed points from 2011, both banked and borrowed points
need to be used by 9/1/11), 90 points coming on 9/1/11 and 160 points coming on
9/1/12. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

180 points. February use year. 105 points currently available, 78 points coming on
2/1/11 and 180 points coming on 2/1/12. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $99/pt
($17820)

160 points. February use year. 26 points currently available and (23 + 3 in “Hold
Status” which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11. No annual
dues until 2011. Closing Cost=$500 Priced at $99/pt ($15840)

160 points. September use year. 320 points coming on 9/1/10 (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 9/1/11) and 160 points coming on 9/1/11.
No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

160 points. February use year. 70 points currently available and 160 points coming on
2/1/11. No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

160 points. February use year. 320 points currently available (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11.
Closing Costs $525 Priced at $103/pt ($16480)

170 points. February use year. 170 points coming on 2/1/12 and 170 points coming on
2/1/13. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $95/pt ($16150)

200 points. February use year. 114 points currently available, 90 points coming on
2/1/11 (89 + 1 banked point from 2010) and 200 points coming on 2/1/12. No annual
dues until 2011. Can close 8/16/10. Closing Costs=$550 Priced at $97/pt ($19400)

50 points. February use year. 50 points coming on 2/1/12 and 50 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Cost=$322 Priced at $94/pt ($4700)

50 points. February use year. 3 points coming on 2/1/11 and 50 points coming on
2/1/12. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$322 Priced at $94/pt ($4700)

70 points. February use year. 70 points coming on 2/1/12 and 70 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$359 Priced at $95/pt ($6650)

70 points. February use year. 70 points coming on 2/1/12 and 70 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$359 Priced at $95/pt ($6650)

160 points. February use year. 320 points currently available (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11.
No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs $525 Priced at $103/pt ($16480)

160 points. February use year. 26 points currently available and (23 + 3 in “Hold
Status” which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11. No annual
dues until 2011. Closing Cost=$500 Priced at $97/pt ($15520)

160 points. September use year. 254 points coming on 9/1/10 (24 + 160 banked
points from 2009 + 70 borrowed points from 2011, both banked and borrowed points
need to be used by 9/1/11), 90 points coming on 9/1/11 and 160 points coming on
9/1/12. Closing Costs=$500 Priced at $98/pt ($15680)

270 points. February use year. 202 points currently available and 270 points coming
on 2/1/11. No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$685 Priced at $105/pt
($28350)

 

[J-Dog]

As for rentals, I doubt they could prohibit it because it's a real estate deed.

The DVC Condo Owners Board (which is composed 100% Disney employees) could simply add a rule prohibiting rental of points.

I guess they could, but it seems like it would be very easy to get around that rule. If you did it correctly, DVD would never know. And I don't think that they would care enough to investigate something like that.

 

[disneyspinedoc]

Checking Disney Resales: (This if for Grand Floridian, but you can easily modify it to check Bay Lake)

Go to Orange County Comptroller's Site Here:
https://www.occompt.com/services/records-search/

Click ACCEPT to accept the disclaimer.

Now you should see the Document Search interface

Enter a Start and End date for your search

Uncheck the box to enable search for specific document types. Choose "Deeds"

Click "Advanced"

In the Legal Remarks field, type "Grand Floridian". Note: you might get some miscellaneous extra stuff using this search. If you want to narrow the search, you can type "TS: VILLAS AT DISNEY S GRAND FLORIDIAN RESORT " in the legal remarks field. I would try both just to make sure you don't miss anything.

This will give you a list of all the Deeds recorded in the period of time you specified above.

Now it gets a little tricky.

Disney Direct Sales will have "DISNEY VACATION DEVELOPMENT INC" as the Grantor. Resales will have someone's name, or a husband and wife, or their trust, etc.

Over on the right, you will see where you can click to "View Image". This will enable you to see a specific deed.

You will want to scrutinize the deed to find out the selling price and the number of points. Many title companies will include both of these.

However, some title companies, and Disney, will put in "$10 and other valuable presents" for the sales price, so you have to do some more digging.

If you can find the number of points attached to the contract, you can calculate the sales price by looking at the Document Deed Tax. The Document Deed Tax is .70 % amount of the sales price. So if you know the amount of the document deed tax, you can divide by .007 to get the purchase price (plus or minus a few $).

Now that you know the purchase price, you divide by the number of points to get a price per point. For a resale deed, you might see a statement like "Purchaser's ownership interest shall be symbolized as 125". This means they bought a contract with 125 points.

Deeds with Disney Vacation Development as Grantor may not show the number of points, but the price for Direct Sales is generally published by Disney.

If you see a document tax of $0.00, it usually means a gratuitous transfer, such as a transfer within a family, or from a husband and wife to their living trust, etc.

This is very helpful! Thanks!

 

[disneyspinedoc]

Here are some examples from July 2010, I just happened to have saved these emails from a broker.


Bay Lake Towers Membership expires 2060 - Annual Dues $3.78 per point

160 points. September use year. 254 points coming on 9/1/10 (24 + 160 banked
points from 2009 + 70 borrowed points from 2011, both banked and borrowed points
need to be used by 9/1/11), 90 points coming on 9/1/11 and 160 points coming on
9/1/12. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

180 points. February use year. 105 points currently available, 78 points coming on
2/1/11 and 180 points coming on 2/1/12. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $99/pt
($17820)

160 points. February use year. 26 points currently available and (23 + 3 in “Hold
Status” which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11. No annual
dues until 2011. Closing Cost=$500 Priced at $99/pt ($15840)

160 points. September use year. 320 points coming on 9/1/10 (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 9/1/11) and 160 points coming on 9/1/11.
No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

160 points. February use year. 70 points currently available and 160 points coming on
2/1/11. No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $100/pt ($16000)

160 points. February use year. 320 points currently available (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11.
Closing Costs $525 Priced at $103/pt ($16480)

170 points. February use year. 170 points coming on 2/1/12 and 170 points coming on
2/1/13. Closing Costs=$525 Priced at $95/pt ($16150)

200 points. February use year. 114 points currently available, 90 points coming on
2/1/11 (89 + 1 banked point from 2010) and 200 points coming on 2/1/12. No annual
dues until 2011. Can close 8/16/10. Closing Costs=$550 Priced at $97/pt ($19400)

50 points. February use year. 50 points coming on 2/1/12 and 50 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Cost=$322 Priced at $94/pt ($4700)

50 points. February use year. 3 points coming on 2/1/11 and 50 points coming on
2/1/12. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$322 Priced at $94/pt ($4700)

70 points. February use year. 70 points coming on 2/1/12 and 70 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$359 Priced at $95/pt ($6650)

70 points. February use year. 70 points coming on 2/1/12 and 70 points coming on
2/1/13. Price good until 7/31/10. Closing Costs=$359 Priced at $95/pt ($6650)

160 points. February use year. 320 points currently available (160 + 160 banked
points from 2009, which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11.
No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs $525 Priced at $103/pt ($16480)

160 points. February use year. 26 points currently available and (23 + 3 in “Hold
Status” which need to be used by 2/1/11) and 160 points coming on 2/1/11. No annual
dues until 2011. Closing Cost=$500 Priced at $97/pt ($15520)

160 points. September use year. 254 points coming on 9/1/10 (24 + 160 banked
points from 2009 + 70 borrowed points from 2011, both banked and borrowed points
need to be used by 9/1/11), 90 points coming on 9/1/11 and 160 points coming on
9/1/12. Closing Costs=$500 Priced at $98/pt ($15680)

270 points. February use year. 202 points currently available and 270 points coming
on 2/1/11. No annual dues until 2011. Closing Costs=$685 Priced at $105/pt
($28350)

Wow 100 pp!! Wonder if it would ever drop that low again..

 

[disneyspinedoc]

We owned for 18 years. My daughters were 5 and 7 and they outgrew it. The rule changes become onerous for us. Since we sold, the new Riveria restrictions have confirmed to us that we made the right choice. "You can visit any DVC resort was a basic - and now that's not accurate and will continue as more are added. They have demonstrated they are constricting wherever possible to kill the resale market. They have demonstrated that they can and will change the rules to maximize their position.

At HHI, they stopped allowing personal kayaks - they said it was protect the wetlands of the marsh - yet they launch their own several times a day. And, there is a rental place across the way. That was the final straw for us.

After we sold, they even ripped up the 'history' of the resort - that Shadow, a golden retriever, was living on the island and stayed when it was built. Shadow and a cast member named Blu Crabbe were part of the resorts' story. They terminated him and deleted all references to Shadow. Now Pluto is there. It sounds silly - but to the families who go to the resort, I can assure you that those two were part of the experience. Almost like removing Mickey from Disney World.

The cost of dues have increased far faster than inflation. We were $3.50 or so in 2001 and now they are well over $10. Annual dues increased from $700 to over $2000. That's real money.

The cost of points - we paid $13,000 for 200 points for HHI - BLT looks to be $35,000 for 200 points - that's a healthy down payment on a beach front condo.

There was something about DVC that made it special and different - I think that luster is gone. We are going on 12th Disney cruise next week - our first in seven years - I may feel the same way about that, too.

Wow your girls outgrew Disney so young! I’m surprised.

Yeah, it’s definitely not an investment like a beachfront condo is. We own a beachfront condo and between the equity and rent we get from it, there is no comparison on what is a better investment.

That’s why my DH is against buying DVC. He thinks Disney is a bad business partner, screwing their own loyal members out of the value of their DVC resale for their own pocket books.

I just want to go to Disney once a year or every other year and stay on property. I also have a hard time stomaching the rack rates and would never pay that much for those deluxe rooms.