Someday I fear health insurance will be a thing of the past.

[twinboysmom]

That is a flat out stereotype. Right up there with all people on welfare are lazy but have money to go to disney.
Sorry I don't know one soul who goes to the ER instead of a primary if they could afford it. And I'm at Cooper hospital more times than I care to be working with the poor in Camden. I see them daily.

They are there for one reason, their kid is sick and they have no money or insurance. they don't have a copay because they don't have money to afford insurance.

But I'll tell you what, I'll see if I can cut and paste your comment to the ER nurses I know. I'll truthfully try and get them to answer. I'll have to subscribe to this thread because I'm not due back until Monday. In fact, I'll post the question on my facebook page and see what I get. Now I know that's
pretty unscientific as far as polls go but it will give me an idea of my little corner of the world.

Hi Eliza. You and I have argued on these boards before regarding insurance. Your opinion as to who and why people frequent the ER is inaccurate. Wanting to ask an ER nurse, you got one. Background, 13 years as a RN with 8 years of ER experience. I have worked in more affluent areas and some downright dangerous areas of town. On any given day the majority of patients in the ER could see their personal physician. Very few truly have medical emergencies. Many people do come for routine care such as ear aches, child with fevers, rashes, pelvic problems (yuck), etc. There are the few that are uninsured. There are many of this group that come to the ER because it was convenient, they didn't want to make an appointment with their doctor, they have used all their monthly visits to their doctor's office on Medicaid, it goes on. Most state Medicaid will deny payment for visits such as this and of course, getting money from the majority (not all) uninsured people is like getting blood from a turnip.

ER's are almost always a money hole to hospitals. The more abuse they see, the more those of us with insurance pay. Doesn't really seem fair. As a nurse some think I have great health insurance. Not so. I struggled with getting my insurance company to pay the neonatologists for their assistance during my emergency delivery. It was very frustrating knowing that others paid nothing for any of their bill. However, even with a system that is in need of some repairs, I will take it over a universal health system any day.

 

[leahjade]

Its just that WE CAN DO BETTER. We can be better people. We can live in a society that does not shun those in need because if I have to pay higher taxes, I might not get to go to Disney World every year!

We are so selfish.

Selfish? You have got to be kidding - all these free entitlement programs are what got our country into trouble to begin with. How is taking care of someone from cradle to grave doing justice to them? Where is the independence and pride that comes from doing a job and providing for your family? There are truly people who will always need assistance, but from 1995 to 2005 twice as many people became dependent on public assistance in the US. There is so much abuse in the system that the government can't control so how do you expect a total universal health care system to be any better?

 

[karice2]

One addition: Those countries who run their universal health care systems for less than we pay here in America NEVER develop any new medicines or procedures. Those things are developed here, on our dime, then other countries adopt them. So while I don't disagree with what you're saying, we do want medicine to move forward, we do want new treatments for painful diseases, and that takes money.

I hate to be the one that breaks up that fallacy but Germany is a country that develop a lot of new drugs and procedures. They have universal health care and they are flush with cash too. I have a friend who works for labs that test drugs to be taken to the FDA, most of his clients are from other countries. We used to be the leaders in that but most new techniques come from other countries. Brazil is the leader in new plastic surgery techniques.

 

[leahjade]

PROFIT is not a dirty word contrary to what some people who are ignorant of economics believe. I want the drug companies making money - how else do you think they are going to be able to research and develop new antibiotics, vaccines etc? Some pharmacutical companies are now looking into developing a vaccine for some types of breast cancer similiar to Guardicil, but there is no way a company can put out the millions of dollars in research if they would not be able to make a profit off the result.

 

[eliza61]

Hi Eliza. You and I have argued on these boards before regarding insurance. Your opinion as to who and why people frequent the ER is inaccurate. Wanting to ask an ER nurse, you got one. Background, 13 years as a RN with 8 years of ER experience. I have worked in more affluent areas and some downright dangerous areas of town. On any given day the majority of patients in the ER could see their personal physician. Very few truly have medical emergencies. Many people do come for routine care such as ear aches, child with fevers, rashes, pelvic problems (yuck), etc. There are the few that are uninsured. There are many of this group that come to the ER because it was convenient, they didn't want to make an appointment with their doctor, they have used all their monthly visits to their doctor's office on Medicaid, it goes on. Most state Medicaid will deny payment for visits such as this and of course, getting money from the majority (not all) uninsured people is like getting blood from a turnip.

ER's are almost always a money hole to hospitals. The more abuse they see, the more those of us with insurance pay. Doesn't really seem fair. As a nurse some think I have great health insurance. Not so. I struggled with getting my insurance company to pay the neonatologists for their assistance during my emergency delivery. It was very frustrating knowing that others paid nothing for any of their bill. However, even with a system that is in need of some repairs, I will take it over a universal health system any day.

Convienence? LOL. please tell me what hospital you work at. every er I've been in is an inconvenient, waiting room, paper work filling out piece of hell and this is with a true emergency. I totally admit that in my 50+ years I've never ever heard anyon even the poor folks I work with saying "Hey lets go to the er, its so fast and efficient".

YOu missed my point. Of course the come in for routine care. That is what I said the problem is. Now why do they come to the ER for routine care?

It's because of just what you said MEDICAID does not pay for the visits or the patient is uninsured or they use up the monthly allotment.

Now if you are uninsured or you don't have any more visits left ot your medicaid allotment exactly where are you to go if your kid get sick?

Quick question: exactly how do you know what their ability to pay is? If you're a nurse do you get access to their bills or if their on medicaid do they have to provide proof of their bank account.

So all you people who know about this so called fraud how do you come by thisinformation? are the clients telling you "Oh I'm on my way to work and just didn't want to make an appointment"?


Fairness hasn't gottne a single thing to do with it.

 

[eliza61]

PROFIT is not a dirty word contrary to what some people who are ignorant of economics believe. I want the drug companies making money - how else do you think they are going to be able to research and develop new antibiotics, vaccines etc? Some pharmacutical companies are now looking into developing a vaccine for some types of breast cancer similiar to Guardicil, but there is no way a company can put out the millions of dollars in research if they would not be able to make a profit off the result.

hey as a stockholder I love profit. I just don't think someone should have to die simply because the insurance company denies a claim and the person could not get decent health care simply so a insurance company can make a profit objective. and yes we think about 35000 people die annually due ot no health care.

 

[dhuba]

All I know is that I would gladly pay more taxes so that the less fortunate could all have healthcare. I already have great healthcare through my husband's work and have never been without it. I am not wealthy but live a nice middle class life. People are greedy. I feel like if I have a roof over my head and food in the fridge and my health, anything else is a bonus that I am willing to share with my fellow human beings. I wish more people would see the light, but their judgment day will come I guess.

 

[CdnCarrie]

I hate to be the one that breaks up that fallacy but Germany is a country that develop a lot of new drugs and procedures. They have universal health care and they are flush with cash too. I have a friend who works for labs that test drugs to be taken to the FDA, most of his clients are from other countries. We used to be the leaders in that but most new techniques come from other countries. Brazil is the leader in new plastic surgery techniques.

And I hope MrsPete realizes that it was a Canadian that invented/discovered insulin.

 

[Debbie]

One addition: Those countries who run their universal health care systems for less than we pay here in America NEVER develop any new medicines or procedures. Those things are developed here, on our dime, then other countries adopt them. So while I don't disagree with what you're saying, we do want medicine to move forward, we do want new treatments for painful diseases, and that takes money.

So not true. Lots of countries are developing new medicines. Research is not merely done in the US

Sure about that? My mom, who just retired from Social Work, tells me that she's seen it happen time and time again. Poor people who don't have regular doctors take their kids to the emergency room for things like strep throat, and you and I foot the bill.

I agree that there are people are in the ER for things that they shouldn't be-sore throats, earaches, etc. I do wish that people would use their problem solving skills for simple ailments.

Simple: If you hadn't been paying the taxes to support Universal Healthcare, you'd have had more money each month in your paycheck. You'd have saved, you'd have paid only on the months when your kids were actually sick, and you'd have come out ahead.

I disagree that I would always come out ahead. Right now, at my age, it would be true for ME, but when my kids were little? Not a chance that I'd come out ahead. When my sister was going through cancer treatment? No way. Finally, DH is diabetic, so visits the doctor almost monthly. Prescriptions are covered, and when I watch him get his pills ready for the week, I am grateful that we are covered for that as well.

 

[leahjade]

These are possibly 5 of the better sentences you'll ever read:



1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.



2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.



3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.



4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!



5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

 

[leahjade]

All I know is that I would gladly pay more taxes so that the less fortunate could all have healthcare

The less fortunate already do have health insurance is called MEDICAID. You can donate any of your money that you wish to the less fortunate - it's your right to decide where your income is spent. My family already gives 10% of our earnings to charity and a total all inclusive of 30% of our income in taxes so I don't want to hear about another government entitlement plan like "FREE" healthcare.

 

[Muushka]

Everyone having fun discussing on yet another thread about 'them vs us'?

I personally give up trying to convince anyone that you should not steal from one person to give to another.
No matter how noble they believe the cause is.

Until people start looking at the issues with their brains and not their hearts, this argument will go on forever.

These are possibly 5 of the better sentences you'll ever read:



1. You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity.



2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.



3. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else.



4. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it!



5. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that is the beginning of the end of any nation.

 

[Eastern]

Maybe if the govt paid for med school, malpractice insurance, and people who don't pay their bills (for whatever reason) doctors could charge less.

The biggest problem is that people want the best care possible for the least amount possible: that never works.

Govt health care would involve rationing that many people would simply find unacceptable. Many people want everything done, pull out all the stops, spare no expense. It is simply not sustainable.

 

[twinboysmom]

Convienence? LOL. please tell me what hospital you work at. every er I've been in is an inconvenient, waiting room, paper work filling out piece of hell and this is with a true emergency. I totally admit that in my 50+ years I've never ever heard anyon even the poor folks I work with saying "Hey lets go to the er, its so fast and efficient".

YOu missed my point. Of course the come in for routine care. That is what I said the problem is. Now why do they come to the ER for routine care?

It's because of just what you said MEDICAID does not pay for the visits or the patient is uninsured or they use up the monthly allotment.

Now if you are uninsured or you don't have any more visits left ot your medicaid allotment exactly where are you to go if your kid get sick?

Quick question: exactly how do you know what their ability to pay is? If you're a nurse do you get access to their bills or if their on medicaid do they have to provide proof of their bank account.

So all you people who know about this so called fraud how do you come by thisinformation? are the clients telling you "Oh I'm on my way to work and just didn't want to make an appointment"?

Fairness hasn't gottne a single thing to do with it.

First of all, you are NOT a nurse. So therefore, you are in no position to tell me what my clients, I prefer the term patients, say to me. While I do not have access to their bank account records, I do have access to their insurance status. It's on their paperwork they come in with and most patients are quick to tell you. Many insured patients know what things their insurance does and does not cover (prescription meds for example) and many Medicaid patients are aware that some doctors they might possibly be referred to do not accept Medicaid.

I am sorry to tell you that yes, too many people use the ER for convenience. Do you and I think it is convenient? Heck no. But to some waiting for an appointment at 3:30 versus coming to the ER at 9am seems like a better idea. And yes, I have heard more times than I care to "if I had known it would take this long I would gone to my doctor.". And yes, ERs have had to become more "fast and efficient", such as more and more facilities utililizing "fast tracks" staffed with NP's or residents. Why have they done this? Mostly to move the backlog of non emergent patients that tie up ER beds.

As for Medicaid patients running out of visits, this is an issue that needs some work. But, it is an abused system by a bunch of folks. Those people with chronic illnesses that require frequent visits are not at issue in my state. The system works for there needs. It is the others that bring their well child (or themselves) 5-6 times a month for every bump, scrape, cough, and insect bite. I don't have the answer to fix all of this. I don't want rationing of services to any person but the abuse to the system in my state is out of control. This is part of the reason that are health care costs are so high. We who have insurance pay twice for those that do not. We pay for Medicaid in our taxes and then pay for those patients that are uninsured and who abuse the Medicaid. And while you don't think fairness has anything to do with it, I disagree. I think it is terribly unfair. As for what hospital I work in, it's none of your business but I will say I have worked at every major facility in our capital city and multiple facilities in other parts of Mississippi and other states. I am a nurse. I don't work as much any more but still a few shifts in ICU and ER a month. What do you do that makes your knowledge of an ER more accurate than mine?

 

[dhuba]

The less fortunate already do have health insurance is called MEDICAID.

This is not true. The ones in this country without healthcare are the working lower middle class. If you don't work you can get government assistance, but most people who work at low paying jobs can't afford health insurance but make too much for medicaid or state assistance. How are they going to insurance? And that group is growing with more as more companies choose not to provide healthcare benefits.

 

[RockAndRollBallerina]

doctors could charge less.

My mom is a Human Resource director for a hospital, there are doctors there making well over $250,000 a year and they only work 2 days a week. These same doctors are the ones complaining that they are not making enough a year. So most of these doctors are making plenty with just the paycheck from the medical center alone. A good percentage of them can more than afford to charge way less for their services.

 

[leahjade]

most people who work at low paying jobs can't afford health insurance but make too much for medicaid or state assistance.

Then work two jobs like my husband has always done or go back to school to get training for a better paying job! It used to be the American way to work your way up and try to improve your lot in life, not whine about it and expect the "government" to pay for everything you want in life. I don't think where some of you think "government" gets the money to provide for those who don't pay their own way -it's from those of us who are working two jobs or sacrificing and doing without so some don't have to work.

 

[leahjade]

Maybe if the govt paid for med school, malpractice insurance, and people who don't pay their bills (for whatever reason) doctors could charge less

Maybe "Government" should pay for everyone's groceries, electric, mortgage payments etc. They are all as necessary as heath care. We could all just give our paychecks to the "government" and let them dole it out to us as they see fit. We wouldn't have to make any decisions in life and everything would be provided for. That plan is all contingent on some of the people still working - if everyone decides to live off the "government" then where would the money come from? Let me guess - we could just print more! There is such a need for economic education in this country - there are so many who have no idea how a free enterprise system works at all.

 

[sukhakuli]

My mom is a Human Resource director for a hospital, there are doctors there making well over $250,000 a year and they only work 2 days a week. These same doctors are the ones complaining that they are not making enough a year. So most of these doctors are making plenty with just the paycheck from the medical center alone. A good percentage of them can more than afford to charge way less for their services.

Some doctors make that, but generally, no, they don't make that kind of money. Usually those are specialists. But you are not taking in to account how much it costs to go to med school, how little they make while in internship, residency, and fellowship, how much malpractice insurance costs, how much medical licenses (and keeping your medical license) costs, etc etc. Also, it takes forever to be a board certified specialist. My dh went through 4 years undergrad, 4 years med school, 1 year internship, 2 years residency, and 3 years fellowship. That's 14 years in TRAINING. Dh is in the military, so he doesn't make as much as a civilian neonatologist makes, but the gov. paid for all his school and pays his malpractice insurance and our healthcare. But I know a lot of doctors who are up to their armpits in med school debt, and driving junky cars and barely making it. If you don't get decent compensation, why go through all those years of training?

 

[cab0899]

One addition: Those countries who run their universal health care systems for less than we pay here in America NEVER develop any new medicines or procedures. Those things are developed here, on our dime, then other countries adopt them. So while I don't disagree with what you're saying, we do want medicine to move forward, we do want new treatments for painful diseases, and that takes money.

Canadians also developed the cardiac pacemaker and the electric wheelchair. I found this post to be very disturbing.