So what should happens to cadets in uniform

[NYCgrrl]

This is such a bad argument and it's funny that it always gets used in this situation. As if there is no difference between wearing jeans/driving a car and purposefully choosing to pose for a camera while making a gesture. The difference shouldn't have to be explained, but here we are.

Don't act like you are some unbiased observer in this situation when you are clearly trying to downplay the existence of this symbol within white supremacy by saying 'just because some idiots show a symbol at a rally'. It has been widely adopted by white supremacists when posing for pictures, it wasn't a one time rally thing.

The knots people will twist themselves in to defend this sort of thing is hilarious, like if these people are found to be racist you'll be personally affected in some way.

I'm so glad someone else knows how to construct an argument using the true principles of logic. Reading the earlier post was causing me to shudder involuntarily.

 

[Jennasis]

One thing going for you - you are consistent. You seem to be able to understand people's biases and intents without even meeting them. I agree it wasn't a one time rally thing, but I also know it was a game for decades prior.

If these people are found to be racist, as you say, I hope they are punished. Right now they are only "assumed" to be racist by some people and I stand firm that people should be judged by facts instead of an interpretation of what we see in a 3 second video clip. Also, I'm not "acting" like an unbiased observer, I am one. I have no dog in this fight other than trying to encourage people not to overreact to a situation where the facts are fully known yet. Finally, if these people are determined to be racist, I will be affected in a personal way. I will be tremendously disapointed that they were given an opportunity to attend a military academy when the slot should have gone to somebody with stronger values. I will be sad that people in our society still judge people based on skin color, religion, hertitage, gender, or any other reason that doesn't define who a person really is. I will will have sympathy for the people who were the target of the racist symbols. I don't know any of the parties involved, never attended a military academy, and didn't see the video live. There are no winners here. But again, let's be patient and wait for facts.

I believe the overall charge, racist or just goofing off, would be "conduct unbecoming". As I stated above, whether they were racist or just being idiots playing a stupid game, it is conduct unbecoming of a cadet or military personnel in uniform and they do not deserve to wear the uniform as they clearly do not respect it or the institution. If they were playing a stupid game, there is a time and place for it. If they were racists, they have no place.

Conduct unbecoming.

 

[dominiondad]

I believe the overall charge, racist or just goofing off, would be "conduct unbecoming". As I stated above, whether they were racist or just being idiots playing a stupid game, it is conduct unbecoming of a cadet or military personnel in uniform and they do not deserve to wear the uniform as they clearly do not respect it or the institution. If they were playing a stupid game, there is a time and place for it. If they were racists, they have no place.

Conduct unbecoming.

I don't know what the rules are at the academies, but this sounds reasonable. I can't disagree with any of this.

 

[FlightlessDuck]

Ok, so I'm not an anthropologist or expert in white supremacy to know whether this symbol really is being used by racists or not. From my understanding, the controversial hand sign is a combination of the W and P hand signs, and are very specific. Maybe they evolved over the past few years? Again, I'm not claiming to know.

Regardless of whether they were being racists, trolls, or just playing the circle game, the behavior was inappropriate. As for punishment, that should be based on intent.

 

[dominiondad]

I'm so glad someone else knows how to construct an argument using the true principles of logic. Reading the earlier post was causing me to shudder involuntarily.

My bad, perhaps a better example is in order. The "thin blue line" phrase has been associated with policing since the 1960s. A visual of this idea has been an American flag with a blue line on it. There is a similar flag for firefighters with a red stripe. The blue line flag is a symbol law enforcement use to show their support for each other. Recently, some people decided to declare it racist. As a result, at least one county near me has been the display of this flag within their police station. This may be a better example of where a positive symbol has been declared a symbol of hate and then those that display are labeled racist. the Betsy Ross flag was also labeled racist.

 

[dominiondad]

Ok, so I'm not an anthropologist or expert in white supremacy to know whether this symbol really is being used by racists or not. From my understanding, the controversial hand sign is a combination of the W and P hand signs, and are very specific. Maybe they evolved over the past few years? Again, I'm not claiming to know.

Regardless of whether they were being racists, trolls, or just playing the circle game, the behavior was inappropriate. As for punishment, that should be based on intent.

here's an article from 2017 explaining the circle game, which is innocent. The game was made popular by the tv show Malcolm in the Middle. I can't speak to the racist side of it.
https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/wj8e74/searching-for-the-man-behind-the-circle-game

 

[Hikergirl]

The raised fist has been adopted by The (New) Black Panther Party. An organization that the SPLC claims is racist.
So, would you all be OK with the men at the football game receiving the same punishment as those women pictured in the link upthread?
They were allowed to graduate, so they were not expelled.
The incident was investigated, and their intent was that it was used as showing of unity. If the investigation says these men were using it as the circle game and not some racist gesture, would you accept that? Or will the assumption be because they are white men that they are racists?

 

[FlightlessDuck]

I can't speak to the racist side of it.

I can tell you that there is two-handed white power gang sign. And a different hand sign used by Aryan Circle, a white nationalist prison gang. In 2017, notorious "icky website" 4chan started a hoax regarding the OK sign: https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture

But it seems as of 2019, it might have actually started getting used as an actual sign: https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

 

[dominiondad]

The raised fist has been adopted by The (New) Black Panther Party. An organization that the SPLC claims is racist.
So, would you all be OK with the men at the football game receiving the same punishment as those women?
They were allowed to graduate, so they were not expelled.
The incident was investigated, and their intent was that it was used as showing of unity. If the investigation says these men were using it as the circle game and not some racist gesture, would you accept that? Or will the assumption be because they are white men that they are racists?

Uh oh ...

 

[FlightlessDuck]

A list of racist hand signs, as described by The Anti-Defamation League

https://www.adl.org/hate-symbols?cat_id[153]=153

 

[BrianL]

The knots people will twist themselves in to defend this sort of thing is hilarious, like if these people are found to be racist you'll be personally affected in some way.

I did not take this so much as a "defense" of those using the symbol, but more of a "they can't have it if we don't let them" - of course that is easier said than done. I don't see that poster as defending those using it in this context.

 

[dominiondad]

A list of racist hand signs, as described by The Anti-Defamation League

https://www.adl.org/hate-symbols?cat_id[153]=153

This makes my original point. Go to the site and look at the "OK" hand signla. It states " Caution must be used in evaluating instances of this symbol's use. "

 

[jsmith]

Perhaps the DIS would be well served to stand by and watch the military justice system conduct its investigation, and courts marshall if they deem it required. They are through investigators and not know for leniency or for Theater of the Absurd trials. Intent will be determined and punishment will be swift and what is deserved.

 

[cheryl.UK]

For goodness sakes-this is from Wikipedia-
File:OK Sign.jpg

• Langu

It was used commonly in the military for a century or more as “okay” and now used as the basis of a game. Just because a group of people that sit around and look for grievances decided it signifies something else doesn't make it so.

And this way up, it is used by the military both in the US and the UK to simply mean 'OK' However, invert it and it becomes the White Supremacist sign. It's also travelled to UK to mean this. I see it in schools and it is a reason for fixed term exclusion and written up as a racist incident. If one of my students used the sign at an even, whilst representing the school, I would exclude them permanently for bringing the reputation of the school into disrepute.

 

[wvjules]

Racists gonna racist.

 

[okeydokey]

Good thing no Disboards during the time of the trials in Salem Mass. Hard to imagine how large the pyre would have been with Disboards posters adding their observations. There would have been terrible deforestation to have enough wood to get the job done.

Back in the day there was no video of people turning neighbors into frogs. Today we have videos of deplorable people knowingly flashing known signs of white supremacy.

 

[RamblingMad]

Let the commander and chief decide.

 

[sam_gordon]

Today we have videos of deplorable people knowingly flashing known signs of white supremacy.

I'm all for investigating. Look at their social media pages, talk to people who know them, whatever it takes. But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize you should look at the CONTEXT the symbol is used. I don't know what context it was used in at the Army/Navy game, nothing really makes sense.

 

[Hikergirl]

Let the commander and chief decide.

Who is the commander and who is the chief?

 

[Mrs. Ciz]

I can tell you that there is two-handed white power gang sign. And a different hand sign used by Aryan Circle, a white nationalist prison gang. In 2017, notorious "icky website" 4chan started a hoax regarding the OK sign: https://www.adl.org/blog/how-the-ok-symbol-became-a-popular-trolling-gesture

But it seems as of 2019, it might have actually started getting used as an actual sign: https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

I was just getting ready to post this very link! The 4chan hoax (that the ok sign is a white power sign) was started sometime in 2017. It was only in September 2019 that the Anti Defamation League added the OK sign to their list of hate symbols because in recent months white supremacists have actually started using it. The ADL posts a picture on their website of the OK symbol with the fingers up in a W and with the finger circle and wrist forming the P - thus the White Power symbol. The hate symbol is not the upside down OK. See here: https://www.adl.org/education/references/hate-symbols/okay-hand-gesture

If you look at memes of the circle game, all the fingers are either pointing down in a M or to the side - not straight up in a W. On Pinterest there are tons of pictures of the circle game fingers (heck there are even t shirts). Kids send the pics to each other all the time as a "gotcha." The below the waist followed by a punch part of the game has morphed with the digital age into showing the upside down OK in pictures and videos (especially on the sly) as a digital "gotcha" - a lot like getting "rick rolled." There are memes/photos/videos of famous actors doing the circle game fingers during their interviews, sports stars doing the circle game fingers while doing their sports, etc. This is where the kids are getting it from.

Did any of you read about the the suburban high school in Chicago? In May 2019 they spent $80,000 to reprint all their yearbooks because so many of the kids across all races and genders played the circle game when they had their pictures taken. The school didn't want to hurt any feelings or have their students called out, so they forked out the money to reprint. From the article: “Let me be clear: it is fully believed that the intent of the students in the photographs was to be playful, as the Circle Game was actively being played around many campuses this academic year, including ours,” Devine wrote.

One of my coworkers taught at the Naval Academy for several years. I asked her what she thought of the whole thing. She said young men that age are idiots a lot of the time; their frontal cortex is not yet fully formed, and the academy is used to dealing with their foolishness. It will be investigated and dealt with, but if they kicked out everyone that did something dumb, they'd hardly have anyone left. She also said that midshipmen at Annapolis are very insulated from the world at large. They have very little free time or exposure to news outlets or social media because they are so incredibly busy; their time is very structured and not their own. So they may not be aware that a media storm has been brewing over the ok symbol for the last few months. Just her insider's view.

One last thing - an ADL spokesman says:
Speaking in general, Pitcavage said it’s important to not leap to conclusions when someone makes the OK sign.
“You cannot assume. That’s the whole problem,” he said. “You absolutely cannot assume what someone is doing when they make the OK sign unless there is contextual information. If the person making the sign is a known white supremacist, then one may assume. If the person making the sign has hate symbols on their clothes, or tattoos or jewelry, perhaps one can make an assumption. But in the absence of contextual evidence, you can’t assume.”

An investigation will uncover if the boys were A) just being doofuses, or if B) they are in fact racists, and the punishment will fit the crime.

Source for quoted material: https://www.chicagotribune.com/lifestyles/ct-life-ok-sign-racist-05282019-story.html