Should Students be required to perform "Community Service"?

[kaytieeldr]

I picked up at this point of the discussion with the above quote wehre you did not mention a civics class....

Then you did, indeed, miss several posts where bicker seggested a choice between the two options.

 

[Imagineer7]

Then you did, indeed, miss several posts where bicker seggested a choice between the two options.

But, but, but, but.... a civics class may require a field trip or two and it would be terribly unfair to ask parents to pay $10.00 to help the school cover the fees for their students. By God, we pay taxes to the educational system and therefore no additional expenses should be required!!!!!!

 

[kaytieeldr]

Honestly?

I did not come up with that scenario. I continued the discussion that SOMEONE ELSE brought up. I didn't paint the picture. I merely discussed it.

ETA: Here is the post--

I'm very sorry for attributing that concept to you. I should know you better than that!

 

[DisneyBamaFan]

Some folks are pretty passionate about this. Me - I just moved my family to a place that teaches my children what I want them to learn. It is still an option in America, though it may not be forever.

ETA - I would never force my ways on others. Too bad more folks are not capable of following that mantra.

 

[kaytieeldr]

But, but, but, but.... a civics class may require a field trip or two and it would be terribly unfair to ask parents to pay $10.00 to help the school cover the fees for their students. By God, we pay taxes to the educational system and therefore no additional expenses should be required!!!!!!

Hey - don't argue with me. I'm on your side!

 

[Imagineer7]

Hey - don't argue with me. I'm on your side!

lol turn your sarcasm meter on

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

Then you did, indeed, miss several posts where bicker seggested a choice between the two options.

We already hashed that out. Caught him mid conversation.

 

[Lisa loves Pooh]

I'm very sorry for attributing that concept to you. I should know you better than that!

I gotta finish catching up before I post.

Thanks.

Got a funny for y'all...

Checked my mail today and got the local community magazine. There were about 10 people on the cover all wearing t-shirts with the word "VOLUNTEER" on them. Very timely.

 

[tinkerbellandeyor]

I have not read this board but I think it is a good idea to get some job experience before graduating regardless if it is a paying one or not

 

[declansdad]

First: Ask a question that doesn't presume a conclusion you want to support. Second: The legitimate question closest to the inanely self-serving inquiry you made has already been answered a couple of times in this thread. To placate you I'll answer it again:

The value of have students perform community service is that they come to understand that their actions impact others, and that living in community with others means giving back when you can, rather than just living selfishly all your life. Also community service assignments could offer the ability to learn better communication skills by connecting with others in a public atmosphere. Other specific benefits vary depending on the specific services. For example, some opportunities will teach students that others may or may not have the same opportunities or capabilities as they do.

I wonder if you are legitimately questioning that value. You seem to be only trying to disparage the idea behind the cover of whining about how it adds a little extra work for folks who operate such community organizations. Your whole premise in that regard is actually ridiculous, since organizations that are significantly adversely affected by hosting community service simply wouldn't offer to do so.

Once again you fail to actually answer the question.

If you would bother to read what people say, you would actually see that others have told their stories about working with volunteers that were forced to volunteer. I have also said that I work with a non-profit that has had to deal with volunteers that didn't want to be there but were forced to put in their time. I have also organized various events and was left short-staffed because of forced volunteers.

So you see I think I know what I am talking about. I am starting to think that maybe you don't.

 

[declansdad]

Truer words have never been spoken. What declansdad is failing to understand is that schools are not putting a gun to an organization's head, so to speak, forcing them to participate. If an organization has had trouble with young kids before and don't feel it's worth it to participate, they won't. Nothing else needs to be said.

What you are failing to see is that not all students will want to volunteer but under a program such as this, they will be forced to. Some organization is still going to have to deal with them. When that happens these organizations will become reluctant to accept any student as a volunteer, good or bad.

 

[dejr_8]

OK. A question For those that support "doing it for the good of the community"

Would you support mandatory donating of blood once during your Senior year in High School?

If not, why?

 

[tvguy]

OK. A question For those that support "doing it for the good of the community"

Would you support mandatory donating of blood once during your Senior year in High School?

If not, why?

No. Because confidential medical issues can prevent someone from donating blood and disclosing that would violate federal law. There are also cultural and religious prohibitions .
Mandatory community service does not present those problems.

 

[hambirg]

One of the big complaints practically everyone has these days is that other people aren't conscientious, other people aren't adequately helpful and benevolently inclined, etc. There have been increasingly louder calls for our schools to go back to teaching civics - teaching young people how to contribute appropriately to society. So there is a lot of good foundation for a public service requirement for graduation.

Of course, it would need to be a state-by-state issue, and would have to comply with federal laws as well, but beyond, that, it sounds like a decent idea.

And there lies the crux of the issue. I was going to respond a bunch more to you. .. and I still might.

But who gets to define what is "appropriate"

I have read the cases as far as the constitutionality of this. Even though the justices have so far upheld the school districts positions. . .they warn that the idea of "service hours" must be defined by the students.

Soooooo. . .let's just say that I'm a member of the Westboro Baptist Church. My children have the right to define their service to the community as protesting gay soldiers' funerals. That is how they define "community service." Are you ok with that? Because if you are going to require it. . it counts. Schools do not get to push whatever their agenda is regarding what constitutes community service and how that plays out values wise. I'm Catholic and if my kids are attending a public HS, they get to count praying outside of abortion clinics with a group of nuns as their "service" to their community. It's such a fuzzy line that I think it needs to be dropped entirely.

It borders on Nazi youth. We mandate that you must "volunteer" in your community for the greater good of society. I hate to break it to you, but our system is based on the rights of the individual. Who gets to define "the greater good of society" And isn't now also our responsibility, to teach our youth, in a democratic society, to question authority and the scope of government? It's all so Orwellian. . ."mandatory volunteering." If that isn't doublespeak, I don't know what is.

Schools that have successfully implemented this "required" community service have counted sports and band/choir participation as counting. Constitutionally, they don't have a choice. If you play high school football, and people show up that are members of the community. . .than that constitutes "community service." If that doesn't fall under your definition, tough beans!

I know I read up thread some sorry soul that thinks a basic education isn't a "right." Well, every state in the union provides for that in their constitution. Here is my states:

It is [the]the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children[/B] residing within its borders, without distinction or preference on account of race, color, caste, or sex.

Here's another interesting tidbit:

All schools maintained or supported wholly or in part by the public funds shall be forever free from sectarian control or influence.

And:

Sectarianism may be the expression of a group's nationalistic or cultural ambitions

Sooo. . just because people of a certain persuasion think that "community service" is a good thing. . .they don't get to push that on others in order for those "others" to exercise their basic rights. You don't get to decide just because you think it has value, that others must find value in it. And even if we can all agree that there is value, you don't get to tell me that picking up trash is appropriate, but praying the Rosary is not, when it comes to "greater good."

I don't really know how else to make that clear! Just because some people think it a wonderful value to instill in people, doesn't mean they get to. And they certainly don't get to decide how others define action for the benefit of society.

How about mandatory military "volunteerism" as a prerequisite to a basic right. . like voting? All the arguments in the world about the value of military service isn't going to justify making it a requirement to a basic right. . .God given as we define them! And it really doesn't matter all the valuable things anybody wants to postulate about "service hours." It doesn't matter! You are simply not allowed to use the right to a basic education to impose your values on others. It's just not right on principle. There I said it!

 

[hambirg]

No. Because confidential medical issues can prevent someone from donating blood and disclosing that would violate federal law. There are also cultural and religious prohibitions .
Mandatory community service does not present those problems.

I beg to differ. Most "mandatory volunteering" I have run across has required liability waivers and criminal background checks. How is that now disclosure?

 

[PaulaSB12]

Its more political than anything. Its the encouraging of using charities to save money using "free labour" instead of waged labour. To many its a feel good factor, well if that is what makes you feel good then all well and good. BUT you don't and shouldn't expect others to do what you want because it makes you feel good you shouldn't expect to control someone else's life. Give a list of organisations? why does that mean the students are not to be trusted to choose for themselves? If some of these organisations had been church organisations no force on this planet would force me to "volunteer" for them I would have found the least objectionable one done the bare minimun and as soon as I got the form signed told them where to go. As I said before from what I have seen people are working 2 or 3 jobs just to survive, so where do you expect parents to get time to move the kids for this benevelant work you demand they do? What about kids who are looking after sick parents? Over here we have many children who'se live outside school is totally filled by being a parents carer and I bet its the same in America should they just leave the sick relative because someone else feels good making them volunteer. Its a cheap way for the govenment to look like you are looking after the vulerable members of society without actually doing anything and that is why I don't like it.

 

[GinnyEmma]

Nazis? Ummmm, yeah. Nice way to trivialize.

 

[kaytieeldr]

If you would bother to read what people say, you would actually see that others have told their stories about working with volunteers that were forced to volunteer. I have also said that I work with a non-profit that has had to deal with volunteers that didn't want to be there but were forced to put in their time. I have also organized various events and was left short-staffed because of forced volunteers.

And several of us hav suggested 'kick them out/toss 'em back'. Several times. No organization that utilizes or relies on volunteers should be forced to deal with those who don't produce. It's not your responsibility that they need the community service to graduate (as long as you're getting rid of them for legitimate reasons, and not just because you disagree with the program or refuse to give individuals the opportunity).

 

[kaytieeldr]

What you are failing to see is that not all students will want to volunteer but under a program such as this, they will be forced to. Some organization is still going to have to deal with them. When that happens these organizations will become reluctant to accept any student as a volunteer, good or bad.

It's been pointed out several times, there are many things both students and adults don't want to do but must. Student doesn't want to do homework, or take biology, or go to school? Is that acceptable, or must they do it anyway? Plus, bicker has very reasonably suggested several times - a choice between community service and a Civics class.

 

[kaytieeldr]

And there lies the crux of the issue. I was going to respond a bunch more to you. .. and I still might.

But who gets to define what is "appropriate"

I have read the cases as far as the constitutionality of this. Even though the justices have so far upheld the school districts positions. . .they warn that the idea of "service hours" must be defined by the students.

Yes, by the students. Not each individual student choosing for her- or himself what an appropriate community service experience would be for that individual, but a group of students choosing a number o non-profitts.

I know I read up thread some sorry soul that thinks a basic education isn't a "right." Well, every state in the union provides for that in their constitution. Here is my states:

It is [the]the paramount duty of the state to make ample provision for the education of all children[/B] residing within its borders, without distinction or preference on account of race, color, caste, or sex

Sorry soul here - although I don't recall insulting anyone intentionally so don't understand why I'd be getting attacked... Anyway, no, as I said then, there's nothing in the [US] Constitution guaranteeing an education, in response to someone who'd claimed that. A duty is different from a right.