Should buses be modified to take >2 scooters?

[lanejudy]

When the ECV user is unable to transfer off of the ECV on the bus, are s/he and the ECV belted in securely enough that, even though the ECV might tip a little, neither the user nor the seat would not move very far or fall over?

I'm not a lawyer, but I suspect there may be fine print in the documentation for the ECV that it is not intended for use on a moving vehicle. Whether a person renting an ECV receives that documentation or not may depend on the vendor. I think most if not all people "unable to transfer" would not be utilizing an ECV but rather a wheelchair (power or manual). Neither Disney nor the bus manufacturer can ensure absolute safety of an individual who remains seated on something with a high center of gravity that is not designed for use on a moving vehicle.

But like I said... I'm not a lawyer. I'm sure some lawyer somewhere would find a way to argue the case.

 

[cobright]

That's fine if someone does not feel safe. They should not tip over if they are properly secured. Maybe they need a different/better method of securing the ECV or chair if this happening. After all anyone on the bus can get hurt if the ECV is becoming loose during the ride.

When the ECV user is unable to transfer off of the ECV on the bus, are s/he and the ECV belted in securely enough that, even though the ECV might tip a little, neither the user nor the seat would not move very far or fall over?

The technical term for this is 'securement'. ECV/wheel-chairs/etc. will have recommended securement points that are engaged by the ratcheting tie-downs connected to similar points on the bus. Generally speaking, once secured, an ECV is not going to move much relative to the bus, and the next concern is securing the ECV passenger to the ECV and/or bus.
This leaves two possible problems, such as...

Sure, they should not too over. But gravity is a funny thing. It has surprising laws and properties.

Gravity remains more or less a constant, but I know what you are going for. Force, in physics is how mass in motion affects the world around it. A seatbelt for instance must be able to secure it's payload against over 5000lbs of force. That's how 'heavy' a 180lb person becomes against the seatbelt when a car hits a stationary object at 30mph. The ratcheting tie-downs are made of similar material.

So... if the ECV passenger wil be secured to the ECV and the ECV secured to the bus, a bus driver has to determine whether the securement system will handle the total burden. Adding a 120lb passenger to a secured ECV is a very different matter than if the rider is 200 or 300 lbs, from a purely Newtonian standpoint.

The second issue is that not all passengers are the same, in seats or sitting on an ECV. The rest of us don't get seatbelts on most buses, we're trusted to secure ourselves with handholds. Often though someone who needs help walking might need more help in general and the handholds available to someone sitting in a secured ECV may not be as good as those available to a person seated in a proper chair.

All of this is the sort of thing the driver must consider when setting his policy for who gets to sit in their ecv vs. who moves to a seat. Often, drivers will just decide that a blanket policy of everyone transfers to a seat is just easier to manage, and the safer, if less convenient, option.

Very often I find that people tend to crowd into every space in those lines and have no problem jumping in front of a wheelchair. I have been hit and my chair has been damaged by people using it to push themselves in front.

I still find people that doubt this actually happens to any problematic degree. I'll hear, "I'm sure it happens occasionally..." sort of things.

I installed cameras on my friends powerchair as a part of a collision avoidance system I'm developing and I have saved over 1000 hours of video as test data so far. I can pull probably 100 examples of this behavior, sometimes 10 or more in a single day.

 

[Simba's Mom]

What I thought was strange about remaining on your ECV while on the bus was that on my first bus this last trip, there was a sign that said that ECV users must not remain on ECV while bus was in motion, so I transferred to a bus seat. On my next bus, no sign but I transferred again. This time, I got lots of dirty looks, including from the other ECV user, who remained in her ECV. The bus was pretty crowded and I think people resented that I took a bus seat when there was a "perfectly good" place for me to sit on my ECV. After that, I always asked my bus driver "Should I stay on or move to a bus seat?" All bus drivers except one told me to stay on my ECV. They buckled me in and looped/hooked the ECV in place, and I never felt unsafe, even going around corners. Just one bus driver said "It's up to you", but by then it seemed that staying on the ECV was more common, saved a bus seat, and felt safe, so that's what I did. But I only saw that sign on the first bus I went on (otherwise I would have pointed out the sign to my bus driver and automatically transferred).

 

[DisneyOma]

.

I installed cameras on my friends powerchair as a part of a collision avoidance system I'm developing and I have saved over 1000 hours of video as test data so far. I can pull probably 100 examples of this behavior, sometimes 10 or more in a single day.

How can you tell right of way when the camera is attached to the powerchair? Could be the powerchair getting in the path of the other person, right?

 

[ttintagel]

How can you tell right of way when the camera is attached to the powerchair? Could be the powerchair getting in the path of the other person, right?

it seems to me like you'd be able to tell where the pedestrians are in relation to the wheelchair, because you know in which direction the camera is pointing. It's only going to film people the wheelchair user is getting in front of if the camera's pointing backwards.

 

[johnsgrl]

Do you tell the CM directing you that you need side door of the van access to drop the ramp?

Several times, that is when they direct me to drop the ramp while in the travel lane and unload the scooter before pulling into the parking space. Occasionally, when I am forceful enough they allow me to go into the empty HC parking area and park, accompanied by eye rolls and sighs of exasperation.

 

[DisneyOma]

it seems to me like you'd be able to tell where the pedestrians are in relation to the wheelchair, because you know in which direction the camera is pointing. It's only going to film people the wheelchair user is getting in front of if the camera's pointing backwards.

But you still can't tell who had the right of way, etc. A pedestrian could be coming in from the left or right, and their path crosses that of the person in the power chair. Who is to say the person in the power chair didn't get in the way of the person walking? You are only getting the one angle of perspective, unless the camera is rotating. Who knows if the power chair operator isn't just zipping around with no regard to people walking? (seen that happen many times at our school)

 

[Maudes my mom]

What I thought was strange about remaining on your ECV while on the bus was that on my first bus this last trip, there was a sign that said that ECV users must not remain on ECV while bus was in motion, so I transferred to a bus seat. On my next bus, no sign but I transferred again. This time, I got lots of dirty looks, including from the other ECV user, who remained in her ECV. The bus was pretty crowded and I think people resented that I took a bus seat when there was a "perfectly good" place for me to sit on my ECV. After that, I always asked my bus driver "Should I stay on or move to a bus seat?" All bus drivers except one told me to stay on my ECV. They buckled me in and looped/hooked the ECV in place, and I never felt unsafe, even going around corners. Just one bus driver said "It's up to you", but by then it seemed that staying on the ECV was more common, saved a bus seat, and felt safe, so that's what I did. But I only saw that sign on the first bus I went on (otherwise I would have pointed out the sign to my bus driver and automatically transferred).

I find the same thing that some drivers insist I transfer, and some just buckle me in with a seatbelt type restraint. This after my ECV is secured front and back with ratcheting type straps. Feel perfectly safe!

 

[EveDallas]

Perhaps also, able bodied guests should be more patient with scooters getting on the buses. They can just jump on any bus, but my Mum with a scooter sometimes has to wait and wait. It's so stressful using the bus system. And getting QS food.

Agreed. The attitude from able bodied people is astounding sometimes. I promise my brother would gladly stand in line however long in exchange for being able to walk more than ten steps without pain.

 

[cobright]

How can you tell right of way when the camera is attached to the powerchair? Could be the powerchair getting in the path of the other person, right?

The cameras are the computer vision componant of an obstacle avoidance system and the data includes the speed and direction (if any) of the chair as well as speed direction of most stationary and moving potential obstacles (terrain and people respectively).

There's actually several cameras, including a 360 deg camera, an array of PIR infrared sensors, microwave radar, GPS, acceleration and (soon) LIDAR sensors. Basically, every technology used by the DJI Mavic drone and then some.

Put it this way, I started developing this system because people often list fear of driving into something or someone as a reason for not getting or using powered mobility devices. If they can keep a Prius from crashing or hitting a pedestrian, we should be able to do the same for a Jazzy. But even I was shocked at just how blatantly people will walk in front of a moving wheelchair, otherwise obstruct them.

 

[SueM in MN]

Some clarification I got regarding a rider staying on an ECV on the bus.

1) Thw majority of ECVs are not designed for public transportation and most do not have securement points built in to attach the tiedown straps on the buses. Some don’t have any really good places to attach, so there may be limitations regarding how well they csn be attached.
Many manual wheelchairs have attachment loops bolted/securely to the wheelchair frame or they have sturdy frame pieces where hooks can be attached. Power wheelchairs almost all have tiedown points. My daughter’s power wheelchair actually is crash tested.

2) As was noted, there are weight limits for the securement hooks. So, if the total weight of the driver plus ECV exceeds that, the rider should transfer off. The weight of ECVs can really vary.

3) Some ECVs are more likely to tip even if they are secured correctly/as well as possible. It’s most safe to transfer. The ECVs with 4 wheels, in general, are more stable. Some with 4 wheels are very narrow, especially compared to the seat width. Those would be more stable compared to a 3 wheel version, but the narrower it is, the less stable.
The 3 wheeled versions are least stable and their manufactures do say to transfer in a vehicle and not ride on it.

 

[cobright]

Agreed. The attitude from able bodied people is astounding sometimes. I promise my brother would gladly stand in line however long in exchange for being able to walk more than ten steps without pain.

Ok, I have a dark sense of humor and rather like ribbing people (myself included) for our human faults. One if my favorites is to stand in line, and when my friend rolls by in her power chair I'll turn to someone in line and say, "must be nice, eh?" In a real smarmy voice. It's not really fair, but it surprises me how often the response is agreement. On the occasion that I do get shocked indignation I quickly explain that it's my friend and I'm being facetious. Vast majority either sniff quiet dismissal or give a timid agreement.

 

[Oliviaxxx]

Ok I have been talking about this post with my mom who used an ECV this past trip. I get that it can be very frustrating that ECV people roll up to the front of lines and sometimes take up room on the bus which forces people to wait longer for the next possible bus. I have already said that it's ridiculous to expect someone to park an ECV on a bus when it's full of people, even when they are all still sitting.

So if there are 20 people waiting for the bus and an ECV user rolls up. They should get on first. If while waiting for them to load, another ECV comes up they too should board first. The reason I think this is because an ECV can't ride in a different seat. It's not like if they don't get their ECV hooked in that they can just go sit in the back of the bus or stand. There are two ECV spots and if they don't get one of them, there are no other options. They can't collapse the ECV to make it smaller and put it between their legs while they sit like a stroller. It's those two spots or it's nothing. If someone who doesn't need the mobility assistance gets on a bus they can squish into the seat with their toddler on their laps. Mom and Dad can stand and let the children sit. There are other options for you. Yes, no one wants to stand on the bus. But if standing room was the only option you could still squeeze in and make it work. If people in wheelchairs don't get one of the two ECV spots they are waiting. There is no other option. So it's the end of the night when the fireworks are done and everyone is making a mad dash for the entrance. Everyone cuts in front of the people in the wheelchairs and the ECVs. They push their strollers quickly in front of them and pull little Billy's hand in front of them and cut them off to get to the bus stop. Now let's say the bus queue has enough people to max out a bus. As the bus pulls up an ECV pulls up. The bus driver says sorry we can't take you because all of these people were here before you. All the people pile in and no ECV's are taken. By the time the next bus pulls up, there is now 4 EVC's waiting, enough for 2 buses and the bus driver goes sorry I can only take one because all of these people standing were in front of you. Do you see the point I am trying to make? ECV people would be waiting ridiculously long. As I stressed it's because they have no other option. They can't stand and collapse the scooter. They can't share a seat with their two children on their laps. If we went with the way I illustrated above and what other people proposed I think at the end of the night they would be sending extra buses back to mostly keep picking up ECVs and wheelchairs.

The fold up seats where the ECVs and wheelchairs go says "priority seating" with the handicap sign. It's for handicap use. If a handicapped person doesn't need it, it's up for grabs, when they do need it, it's 100% for them. I think of this as like the handicap parking spot at the mall during black Friday. If you don't need a handicap spot should you just park in the handicap spot? I mean you were there before a handicapped person needs it.

I do agree that the amount of people who get on the bus before everyone else with the handicapped person needs to be limited. My trips are just my mom and I so I don't take up much room. I usually always offer my seat up to someone who needs it more anyways. Our last trip we saw this family almost every morning. Grandma and grandpa were in ECVs, then there was the parents and their four children. They all got on with grandpa and grandpa. So yes, they did take up half the bus. It should be limited but I do not have any great on ideas on that at the moment.

I hope this post is taken the right way. I have just been thinking about it a lot. For almost my whole life my mom didn't need a wheelchair or an ECV. I too would have been annoyed that these people roll up and get right on. I probably would have been making comments at mom about how long we had to wait. With her health issues now I am seeing things from a different point. I never had to look at things through the handicapped lens but now I do! So I totally see where both sides are coming from! Everyone just wants to get to the parks as soon as they can to have fun or they are trying to head back to their room as soon as they can so they can put their feet up lol!

Just some thoughts and I would love to hear people's feedback. Again this post didn't come from an argumentative stance. Just some lazy Sunday thinking lol

 

[olwyngdh]

Our last trip we saw this family almost every morning. Grandma and grandpa were in ECVs, then there was the parents and their four children. They all got on with grandpa and grandpa. So yes, they did take up half the bus. It should be limited but I do not have any great on ideas on that at the moment.

This is no different than two different families with one scooter, a spouse and two children.

 

[CrankyDad]

Just limit the able bodies that can go with. One scooter equal 4 people or such. The amount of scooter is staggering. Then you add unlimited people to travel with and it become unmanageable

 

[serenitynow]

Just limit the able bodies that can go with. One scooter equal 4 people or such. The amount of scooter is staggering. Then you add unlimited people to travel with and it become unmanageable

Ok, let’s do the same for anyone with those gigantic strollers. Even folded up they take up a huge amount of space where others could stand for a ride on the bus. Let’s limit the amount of “able bodied” family members that can board with a stroller. Sound fair? In addition, let’s limit the number of strollers allowed on the bus since they take up so much space. How’s that?

 

[CrankyDad]

Fine with me. Kids are grown. . I get the point but don’t see how it applies. The stroller people wait in line and will skip busses if needed. When etc pulls up the extended family joins them and clogs the bus. Then you take the sheer number of scooters and it is a problem. We went with in-laws. FIL used a scooter. Wife and I and kids waited in line and did not skip the line with scooter

 

[AdamEfimoff]

In Australia the bus driver has to drop the ramp, then the wheelchair roles on , then they put on the break. I am guessing Florida law requires them the be strapped in ?

 

[cobright]

Just limit the able bodies that can go with. One scooter equal 4 people or such. The amount of scooter is staggering. Then you add unlimited people to travel with and it become unmanageable

An ecv must be something like 4 feet long or less, this translates to 3 seats proper and a little more standing room.
Now I champion mobility disabled access issues about as hard as a guy with two working legs can, and I'm willing to give on this issue. Preferential boarding for mobility-assisted guests included that guest one attendant if needed and one dependant if needed. Any more in their part can catch up on the next bus of call an Uber.

That would be the fair approach. But it's not the easiest one to implement. The solution that makes the most sense for the able bodied majority is one most likely to polite the scene with conflict, broken familues stretched thin, an empowered ableist majority chalking it up to a win and pushing for even less assistive measures for the disabled. Bah.

People need to keep one thing in mind, when they think a disabled has it easier some way, it can be you in that chair so much sooner than you imagine. And when it does you'll be shocked that there aren't folks lining up to trade places with you then.

 

[lanejudy]

@Oliviaxxx I understand what you are trying to say. However I want to point out that you are assuming everybody on two legs is able-bodied and has the ability to stand on the bus if necessary. There is a fairly decent subset of people who do not use a wheelchair or ECV, or rent in the park, but for various reasons they may not be able to stand on a moving vehicle. Some of those people may well have already waited for a 2nd bus just to be able to sit. A mobility device just rolling up as the bus arrives and boarding immediately may bump that individual from a seat even though there is plenty of standing room available for people to "squeeze in and make it work" as you suggest. In your scenario the wheelchair/ECV party gets priority access without waiting while the individual who has been waiting, will wait longer because they can't get a seat and are unable to stand on a moving vehicle.

I have no issue with mobility devices boarding the vehicle first, as long as they have waited their turn and aren't jumping ahead of people who may have been waiting for 20+ minutes already. But I don't know that there will ever really be a fair way to assure that. People need to be courteous of others who arrived earlier and have been waiting longer.

I try not to get upset on vacation. So we plan plenty of travel-time, often travel at off-peak times, pack our patience, and wait for the next bus quite often.