Should alimony be abolished?

[jodifla]

I was largely joking when I referred to it as back pay, but really I think that's a reasonable way to see it for those who have a huge issue with alimony. If I had been working, we would have paid someone else to do what I do, and that someone else would have reaped the benefits of payments into the state pension system too. Funnily enough, most SAHPs have virtually no pension to speak of after years of work simply because the family chooses to save on the expense of paying somebody to do the job that must be done. If it is reasonable to pay someone else to do it, it's not unreasonable to consider it worth something of value to the family when the SAHP does it.

I totally agree.

 

[mhsjax]

I don't roll over and go back to sleep. Why are working parents allowed to do that and if they are, I did not get the memo, I am very confused about the 24 hour thing too. Whe I get home from "work" I keep working as a parent so I guess it's fair to say I work 24 hours a day as well.

I think she means that the SAHM, if there is one, is the one who gets up. I know I did, DH had to get up and go to work, so I didn't want him to get up for anything, I took care of everything at night, and on the weekends in the am so he could sleep in.

 

[mhsjax]

I was largely joking when I referred to it as back pay, but really I think that's a reasonable way to see it for those who have a huge issue with alimony. If I had been working, we would have paid someone else to do what I do, and that someone else would have reaped the benefits of payments into the state pension system too. Funnily enough, most SAHPs have virtually no pension to speak of after years of work simply because the family chooses to save on the expense of paying somebody to do the job that must be done. If it is reasonable to pay someone else to do it, it's not unreasonable to consider it worth something of value to the family when the SAHP does it.

Never thought of it like that, but I agree. I would have been paying a day care center if I went back to work. My DH feels the same way. He believes that because I was home, his life was easier and he didn't have to worry about kids being sick and who would take off, or who would get them to the Dr or who would be there at their school functions, it was me.

 

[SLP958]

This conversation is fascinating. I have never heard a working parent state they should be compensated for taking care of their own children.

If if it stands to reason that stay at home parents should be paid, then should working parents be paid for the time they spend caring for their children too?
For example, if I get home earlier than my husband, should I log this as hours for compensation if we divorce?

What about nights up late, days taken off for a sick child?

In reality working parents do everything stay at home parents do plus work for pay.

Why is the stay at home parent's time with kids so much more valuable?

 

[chobie]

This conversation is fascinating. I have never heard a working parent state they should be compensated for taking care of their own children.

If if it stands to reason that stay at home parents should be paid, then should working parents be paid for the time they spend caring for their children too?
For example, if I get home earlier than my husband, should I log this as hours for compensation if we divorce?

What about nights up late, days taken off for a sick child?

In reality working parents do everything stay at home parents do plus work for pay.

Why is the stay at home parent's time with kids so much more valuable?

No, a working parent does not do everything a SAHP does plus work. Because 40-50 hours a week they are not taking care of the child, they are paying someone else to do that. Not that there is anything wrong with that,

I've done both, and when I was a SAHM, I did all the night stuff, all the housework, and the majority of all that stuff on the weekends. When I went back to work, husband took over half the housework/child care. Life was easier for him (except financially) when I did not work.

No one is saying that a SAHP should get back pay based on hourly wage after a divorce, but they should be compensated for the sacrifice of not working and making life easier on the parent with the paycheck.

Having a parent stay home based on a mutual decision benefits both people during the marriage and both parents should have to share the repercussions of that after a divorce. Except for the 1%, alimony does not put the SAHP in the same financial situation they were before the divorce. They generally live on less, as does the paying ex.

So, yes, a SAHP, should get alimony ( how long and how much should be on a case to case basis). Any person who never wants to pay alimony should get a prenup.

 

[SLP958]

No one has stated stay at home parents are not entitled to alimony. The debate seems to be that stay at home parents should realize things can change. Making the decision to stay home is a risk in the event of a divorce.

And yes, working parents do everything stay at home parents do. We many change a few less diapers but other than that, it's the same.

I think this is the root of the mommy wars. I never hear working parents talk about how much their time is worth or complain about being on call 24/7. That is just life with kids.

 

[chobie]

No one has stated stay at home parents are not entitled to alimony. The debate seems to be that stay at home parents should realize things can change. Making the decision to stay home is a risk in the event of a divorce.

And yes, working parents do everything stay at home parents do. We many change a few less diapers but other than that, it's the same.

I think this is the root of the mommy wars. I never hear working parents talk about how much their time is worth or complain about being on call 24/7. That is just life with kids.

Working parents do everything a SAHP does, when they are not at work. You simply are not doing the same amount of work at home PLUS your outside the work home.

I know of some moms that not only work but also do all the housework and child are at nights at weekends because for whatever reasons their husbands don't contribute, that's a crappy relationship IMO.

And yes, It's a risk to have a parent stay home. A risk both patents take and both should share any repercussions, be it paying alimony or whatever.

The reason SAHMs sound like they are "complaining" is because they are tired of being looked down upon for not bringing in a paycheck.

Again, most of the time the SAHP does the majority of housework/child care nights and weekends, whereas in 2 parent working families it's split 50/50 or should be anyway. With exceptions of course if one parent's job requires extensive travel or longer hours.

 

[tasha99]

No one has stated stay at home parents are not entitled to alimony. The debate seems to be that stay at home parents should realize things can change. Making the decision to stay home is a risk in the event of a divorce.

And yes, working parents do everything stay at home parents do. We many change a few less diapers but other than that, it's the same.

I think this is the root of the mommy wars. I never hear working parents talk about how much their time is worth or complain about being on call 24/7. That is just life with kids.

Have you done both? I have and it's not the same. The time spent together is much more than "changing diapers." For the most part, it's SAHM's that are room mothers and log in the most time volunteering. As a working parent, I still volunteer, but not as many hours and not during school hours. I can be more of a "give me a job" helper than someone who is there long enough to make plans and decisions. I have known a few working moms who put in that level after hours, but they're the exception.

Also, I think the working parent (as well as the stay at home parent) needs to know things can change since they're the one who will likely pay some spousal support.

I don't actually see spousal support as lost wages. I think it's more to pay for the lost opportunity since the stay at home spouse will behind in their work skills..

 

[wdwmom3]

I work full time at a very demanding job and have been blessed to take a year off when each of my 3 kids were born. I'm sorry to the SAHM moms out there but being a working mom is A LOT harder. I don't have any less cleaning, cooking, driving kids to activities, or running other errands then I did when I was off work. I have to get all that stuff done plus work a full day. I'm lucky to get 20 mins a day to myself and more then 5 hours of sleep a night. I still volunteer and do things with the kids school. Yes someone else is looking after my kids during the day but all that means is I don't have to entertain them during those hours. Everything else still has to get done once I get home. I loved being at home and sorry but hanging out with my kids never felt like work.

I'm really tired of SAHM getting so defensive. Yes you work but working moms have a lot more on their plate. I almost felt spoiled staying home with my kids. I wish SAHM would recognize what a great thing they have and stop making it sound so hard. Because unless you have a special needs child or 10 kids it's really not.

 

[chobie]

I work full time at a very demanding job and have been blessed to take a year off when each of my 3 kids were born. I'm sorry to the SAHM moms out there but being a working mom is A LOT harder. I don't have any less cleaning, cooking, driving kids to activities, or running other errands then I did when I was off work. I have to get all that stuff done plus work a full day. I'm lucky to get 20 mins a day to myself and more then 5 hours of sleep a night. I still volunteer and do things with the kids school. Yes someone else is looking after my kids during the day but all that means is I don't have to entertain them during those hours. Everything else still has to get done once I get home. I loved being at home and sorry but hanging out with my kids never felt like work.

I'm really tired of SAHM getting so defensive. Yes you work but working moms have a lot more on their plate. I almost felt spoiled staying home with my kids. I wish SAHM would recognize what a great thing they have and stop making it sound so hard. Because unless you have a special needs child or 10 kids it's really not.

Why do you still have to do ALL of the cooking, cleaning and driving? Doesn't your husband contribute more to those things now that you are working?

I've done both and when I went back to work my husband took on a much bigger share of that work.

 

[mhsjax]

I work full time at a very demanding job and have been blessed to take a year off when each of my 3 kids were born. I'm sorry to the SAHM moms out there but being a working mom is A LOT harder. I don't have any less cleaning, cooking, driving kids to activities, or running other errands then I did when I was off work. I have to get all that stuff done plus work a full day. I'm lucky to get 20 mins a day to myself and more then 5 hours of sleep a night. I still volunteer and do things with the kids school. Yes someone else is looking after my kids during the day but all that means is I don't have to entertain them during those hours. Everything else still has to get done once I get home. I loved being at home and sorry but hanging out with my kids never felt like work.

I'm really tired of SAHM getting so defensive. Yes you work but working moms have a lot more on their plate. I almost felt spoiled staying home with my kids. I wish SAHM would recognize what a great thing they have and stop making it sound so hard. Because unless you have a special needs child or 10 kids it's really not.

We will quit being so defensive as soon as working moms quit looking down on us. Very simple it really it.
Now off to eat my bon bons. and watch TV.

 

[ChrisParker]

I bolded and underlined. Making a choice for a spouse to stay home (mom or dad) is a JOINT decision. I don't know anybody in this day and age who just says "I quit!" and the other spouse has to suck wind. WE made the choice for me to stay home TOGETHER. It was what is best for OUR family. See what I am doing here? Once person doesn't make the decision so one person should not be penalized. A family decides this together for the good of all involved.
Also, you mentioned that you knew you weren't going to stay out of the workforce for more than 4 years going inot motherhood. Well, I had a lot of ideas about what I was going to do but once they put that baby in my arms my ideas changed drastically. I am grateful that I am able to stay home and respect if others do not want to. I just think that a lot more goes into making the decision sometimes than you are giving credit for. YMMV.

It strikes me that it's not every relationship where things are decided jointly and there are still plenty of women who do not have a choice, whether that is through pressure, or being told what to do by a husband, or culture, or sheer necessity. I understand that you made this decision jointly so for you it doesn't make sense, but this speaks to exactly the point that what works for you in this situation might not be true for others. Not everyone has the luxury of deciding when that baby is put into their arms to change their ideas.

I can't help but wonder about the demographics of a lot of the people who are speaking out against alimony. I don't see too many destitute mothers weighting in, but that is likely also a function of a bulletin board predicated on discussing expensive vacations.

 

[wdwmom3]

Why do you still have to do ALL of the cooking, cleaning and driving? Doesn't your husband contribute more to those things now that you are working?

I've done both and when I went back to work my husband took on a much bigger share of that work.

With my boyfriends hours I do all the driving and getting kids ready for school etc. he doesn't get home until 10:30 at night. He does some laundry and the outside work, and some cleaning but he would do that even if I was at home. So I guess if I was at home he would have an easier time too. So really like I said as a family unit there is less work to be done when a parent stays home.

 

[wdwmom3]

We will quit being so defensive as soon as working moms quit looking down on us. Very simple it really it.
Now off to eat my bon bons. and watch TV.

See you are assuming working moms are looking down at you. Which I'm pretty sure most of them are not. Many working moms would consider you lucky. We would love to spend the time with our kids and have more choice with what we do during the day. We would love to not HAVE to race around all the time and have time to get things done. No one is saying you sit around all day. But please stop making it sound like its so hard. I loved every minute I was home with my kids and it never felt like work. I miss having a clean house lol.

 

[chobie]

With my boyfriends hours I do all the driving and getting kids ready for school etc. he doesn't get home until 10:30 at night. He does some laundry and the outside work, and some cleaning but he would do that even if I was at home. So I guess if I was at home he would have an easier time too. So really like I said as a family unit there is less work to be done when a parent stays home.

I agree, it's easier on both parents when one stays home which is why alimony should still be awarded in some cases. The working parent benefitted as well as the SAHP and should have to pay back for that if they decide to end the marriage.

Not directing this at you, but IMO, many working moms resent SAHMs because they continue to do the lion's share of the house work and child care either because they are control freaks, martyrs, or have lazy husbands. In any of those cases their resentment is missed directed.

On the other hand, SAHMs sometimes exaggerate how much they do to justify staying home. They shouldn't have to justify and they should admit its easier for both them and their husbands to have this arrangement.

 

[RadioNate]

See you are assuming working moms are looking down at you. Which I'm pretty sure most of them are not. Many working moms would consider you lucky. We would love to spend the time with our kids and have more choice with what we do during the day. We would love to not HAVE to race around all the time and have time to get things done. No one is saying you sit around all day. But please stop making it sound like its so hard. I loved every minute I was home with my kids and it never felt like work. I miss having a clean house lol.

But see this is where personal preferences come into play. I thought married & working was easier than staying home. When I was home my (now ex) expected I'd do everything. When I worked too, he helped.


Now, single mom w/zero help. Alimony or not. I don't want to talk about "hard." And no. My ex is not an e/o weekend dad. So there is no "time off" there either.

 

[jrmasm]

I think all this 'I do more, no I do more' stuff is a pointless arguement. No one will every agree and I think it's irrelevant.

If 2 people divorce there is likely to be financial impact on both parties (working or non).

If 1 person in the marriage has not worked for more than a year or two for ANY REASON, it is likely that that person might need some maintenance support for a period of time until they are able to gain employment. Both parties likely agreed. The person who stayed home risked their employment prospects in the future and the working partner risked that they might have to help the other party if there is a divorce.

I don't think (ME, my opinion) that a SAP deserves anything just because of the fact that they stayed home but I can see how they might need help.

 

[wdwmom3]

I agree, it's easier on both parents when one stays home which is why alimony should still be awarded in some cases. The working parent benefitted as well as the SAHP and should have to pay back for that if they decide to end the marriage.

Not directing this at you, but IMO, many working moms resent SAHMs because they continue to do the lion's share of the house work and child care either because they are control freaks, martyrs, or have lazy husbands. In any of those cases their resentment is missed directed.

On the other hand, SAHMs sometimes exaggerate how much they do to justify staying home. They shouldn't have to justify and they should admit its easier for both them and their husbands to have this arrangement.

Well no working mom should resent a SAHM. I envy them lol. That's what I was trying to get at. I feel some SAHM exaggerate things. It is easier to be a SAHM. And I know that because I have been at home. They should be happy with their decision and thankful for the opportunity and not feel the need to justify what they do all day.

 

[disykat]

No one has stated stay at home parents are not entitled to alimony. That's what this entire thread is about! The debate seems to be that stay at home parents should realize things can change. Making the decision to stay home is a risk in the event of a divorce. That risk should be absorbed by both parties - thus alimony.

And yes, working parents do everything stay at home parents do. We many change a few less diapers but other than that, it's the same.

I think this is the root of the mommy wars. I never hear working parents talk about how much their time is worth or complain about being on call 24/7. That is just life with kids.

(the sentences in red above are my comments)
I don't get how people can read a bunch of people claiming that what SAHMs do has no "value" in terms of money and then wonder why SAHMs are getting defensive?

 

[mhsjax]

See you are assuming working moms are looking down at you. Which I'm pretty sure most of them are not. Many working moms would consider you lucky. We would love to spend the time with our kids and have more choice with what we do during the day. We would love to not HAVE to race around all the time and have time to get things done. No one is saying you sit around all day. But please stop making it sound like its so hard. I loved every minute I was home with my kids and it never felt like work. I miss having a clean house lol.

Well that has been "my" experience. I have been asked to my face, "what do you do all day" This from kids whose parents work and I am feeding and driving around, while their parents are at work. so maybe you will understand where I am coming from. I am sure they hear it from their parents.

YOu said it ver nicely in this post, a lot of us consider ourselves lucky, a lot of us love staying at home with our kids, but there are many working moms that don't feel this way. Including from people I know personally.

OH and my house isn't clean, it was when they were little but they are teens and they make bigger messes, and have bigger stuff and more of it.