Should alimony be abolished?

[WDW in Pearls]

Because they are mostly women and this argument is between women. Men don't care about this issue. And women tend swoon all over men who are SAHDs and give lots of .

Could not agree more. I can't see other men looking down on men who stay home (or at least not outwardly showing it).

 

[chobie]

Could not agree more. I can't see other men looking down on men who stay home (or at least not outwardly showing it).

I stayed home when my kids were little then went to part-time work, got my undergrad degree while working part-time, then went to law school while juggling 2 part-time jobs, kids and a daily 3-4 hour commute. So, I feel free to comment on both sides.

But I have several female colleagues who have had babies in the last few years and their lives are rough. They come in exhausted and stressed out, they post on Facebook about being up all night. My male colleagues who have become fathers have not changed at all. They never look or complain about being tired. They still go to happy hour after work several nights a week, one even went on a "boys only" Vegas trip a few months after the baby was born -- no new mother ever does something like that.

I'm sure there will be many posts from women swearing its just the opposite with people they know, but this is what I see day in and day out. Most of my female collegeus have husbands in the same profession or in a profession that works closely with our office, so I often see them around. They always look and act exactly like they did before the baby.

This is a women's issue because women are affected more by parenthood than men, and it saddens me to see the fighting between women. Doesn't mean I'm not going to take a side here or there, but I wish we could reach some common ground.

 

[EnduringWone]

Because sometimes it means that we would not be able to feed our kids or have a roof impoverished our heads, give me a break.

You give me a break. Sometimes, not always. Same thing for SAHM.

Well that's easy, financial reasons. Many families can't afford a single income.

Also, why are we assuming the stay at home parent is always the wife and not the husband?

Again, just food for thought.

I disagree. Plenty of families do it because material possessions are more important. I have six children, most of them grown and I have been a mom that works outside the home and a sahm and have seen a lot in my many years to know it is true.

Again, I am sure mothers whether they work outside the home or in the home are doing the best for their families. Degrading one or the other does nothing to support one's viewpoint. I never understand the constant denigration of others on this board whether it is fat people or the poor or mothers and if they breast feed or don't, work outside or in, and so on. I have better things to do frankly.

 

[Colleen27]

Could not agree more. I can't see other men looking down on men who stay home (or at least not outwardly showing it).

Not outwardly showing it, sure. Not thinking it or discussing it? Not so much. I've heard some rather unkind things about a couple of SAHDs in our circle, not coming from women (who do tend to swoon a bit over the very idea) but from other guys who see it as a less than masculine choice.

I stayed home when my kids were little then went to part-time work, got my undergrad degree while working part-time, then went to law school while juggling 2 part-time jobs, kids and a daily 3-4 hour commute. So, I feel free to comment on both sides.

But I have several female colleagues who have had babies in the last few years and their lives are rough. They come in exhausted and stressed out, they post on Facebook about being up all night. My male colleagues who have become fathers have not changed at all. They never look or complain about being tired. They still go to happy hour after work several nights a week, one even went on a "boys only" Vegas trip a few months after the baby was born -- no new mother ever does something like that.

I'm sure there will be many posts from women swearing its just the opposite with people they know, but this is what I see day in and day out. Most of my female collegeus have husbands in the same profession or in a profession that works closely with our office, so I often see them around. They always look and act exactly like they did before the baby.

This is a women's issue because women are affected more by parenthood than men, and it saddens me to see the fighting between women. Doesn't mean I'm not going to take a side here or there, but I wish we could reach some common ground.

That's been my experience too. I worked in a male-dominated field and let me tell you - dads, in my experience, are back to work the day after the baby comes home from the hospital and very little changes. They're still well rested, they're still keeping their "guy time" arrangements, and they're still focused mainly on work. Moms, on the other hand... They come back after 6 weeks or so, usually wishing they could afford to be out longer (not SAH necessarily, but at least have a long enough maternity leave that they're back to sleeping through the night before they're back to work), and are tired, frazzled, and not in a "work" mindset much of the time. And they're the ones calling in when the baby is sick or taking a long lunch to handle a rushed well-visit and turning down overtime because they have to be home on time to pick the baby up. There's a reason gender discrimination is still alive and well in the workforce - because while exceptions to the rule are more common than in past generations, women still tend to be the primary caregiver even when both parents have comparable work responsibilities.

I disagree. Plenty of families do it because material possessions are more important.

And that's not a bad thing. So often the working mom camp focuses on the "I have to work", and ends up coming off just as defensive as SAHMs do when they list everything they do all day because it almost feels like conceding that working is, in fact, a lesser position only to be chosen out of necessity. There's nothing wrong with saying "I work for a nicer house/because I value travel/so I can pay for my kids' college educations" IMO.

 

[gottaluvPluto]

This is sad that the tread is semi turning into SAHM vs Working moms. As someone that has done both; sometimes working was easier than staying at home and sometimes staying home was easier than working. Women need to support each other not tear each other apart.

I think alimony should not be abolished and needs to be looked at case by case.

 

[dogluva]

You give me a break. Sometimes, not always. Same thing for SAHM.

I disagree. Plenty of families do it because material possessions are more important. I have six children, most of them grown and I have been a mom that works outside the home and a sahm and have seen a lot in my many years to know it is true.

Again, I am sure mothers whether they work outside the home or in the home are doing the best for their families. Degrading one or the other does nothing to support one's viewpoint. I never understand the constant denigration of others on this board whether it is fat people or the poor or mothers and if they breast feed or don't, work outside or in, and so on. I have better things to do frankly.

I think you said why not stay home then if working is so hard. And I said Some of us need to deed our families. So yes, please give me a break because it is not as easy as just quitting.

 

[Amy&Dan]

I love these two! I am not a believer in alimony- I would never ever put myself in a position where I would depend on someone elses money and have none of my own. I see guys at work get divorced and have to give their wives half their pensions when they retire-many delay retiring hoping the ex will die first so they don't have to give up half their pensions! No way am I working 30 years to hand half my hard earned money over to someone that didn't work.

Omg, don't know whether to laugh or cry!

I stayed home with our kids for 17 years. I worked, my husband worked. The money "he" earned was our money. Because we both felt very strongly that he was able to work the long hours, travel endlessly and put that much into his career was in large part because in all the years my kids were young, he never had to stay home when they were sick or out of school, pass up on a business trip or anything else similar because I was home with the kids.

I went back to work a few years ago and had to sort of start all over again but you know what, I don't feel bad about that. Because I know who I am and what I have accomplished. And so does my husband.

But if he divorced me, yeah, I would get by law what I deserve because we were a team for many years. And as such, what was earned by our team belongs to both of us.

I don't care if you are a working mom, or dad, SAHM, SAHD, double income/no kids kind of couple, or single with no kids. Life is hard. You will work hard,and put into your life a lot of blood sweat and tears. There is no easy route and if you get alimony, well chances are you earned it.

If you want to keep all your income, don't get married. Don't have kids (because if you think an ex spouse is an income sucker, kids amp that up to a level no ex spouse can lol) and get yourself fixed. And buy long term care insurance because you'll need it because in the process of saving your income for you, you yourself will suck it down when you get old and sick and have nobody to take care of you!

 

[Amy&Dan]

Well no working mom should resent a SAHM. I envy them lol. That's what I was trying to get at. I feel some SAHM exaggerate things. It is easier to be a SAHM. And I know that because I have been at home. They should be happy with their decision and thankful for the opportunity and not feel the need to justify what they do all day.

It was easier for you. That doesn't make it easier across the board. Being a mom is a million different things to a million different women.

You do bring up something I think is valid. Women do exaggerate things, but on both sides(SAHM and working moms). Mostly because women have a need to prove that they are contributing superhuman amounts of time and energy to their families. Men tend to do what they can or are expected to do and no more and not sit around and gnash their teeth or judge themselves and everyone else. Its just the way we as women and men are wired in my book. Men seem to stress more about what they earn because that is what our society has made them feel their worth is attached to.

I will tell you I found that when someone stays home (as I did for quite a few years) they will often be railroaded into things they never imagined; by themselves, and other family members. Their lives will be busy with things far beyond taking care of their own children. They will be volunteering at school, driving and picking up other people's kids as well as their own, babysitting sick kids of friends and family who simply cannot take the time off and often taking care of elderly parents because the other siblings work and therefore cannot. I went right from caregiver to my children to caregiver to my mom. And it was a gift I would not change on either end. But this is why I don't look back at the 17 years I was home as easy. Anymore than working and being a mom is easy.

I will also say that I know plenty of SAHM's who do indeed look down their noses at working moms. In fact, I have a friend who gave me all sorts of grief for going back to work. It kind of puzzles me because she and I used to complain about how friends and family made us feel bad for staying home and now she pulls this judgement bit on me. Whatever, that's her problem not mine. Flipside is the viewpoint a lot of my current co workers have that staying home is easy. Sheesh ladies, lets all give each other some slack!

Whether you are a mom who works outside the home or inside, you work hard! Believe in yourself and pat yourself on the back because you deserve it. And don't let anyone make you feel guilty or let anyone talk you into doing more than you want or have time to do. I overextended my time for years when I was home because I was insecure and thought that was the right thing to do.

 

[chobie]

It was easier for you. That doesn't make it easier across the board. Being a mom is a million different things to a million different women.

You do bring up something I think is valid. Women do exaggerate things, but on both sides(SAHM and working moms). Mostly because women have a need to prove that they are contributing superhuman amounts of time and energy to their families. Men tend to do what they can or are expected to do and no more and not sit around and gnash their teeth or judge themselves and everyone else. Its just the way we as women and men are wired in my book. Men seem to stress more about what they earn because that is what our society has made them feel their worth is attached to.

I will tell you this. When someone stays home (as I did for quite a few years) they will often be railroaded into things they never imagined; by themselves, and other family members. Their lives will be busy with things far beyond taking care of their own children. They will be volunteering at school, driving and picking up other people's kids as well as their own, babysitting sick kids of friends and family who simply cannot take the time off and often taking care of elderly parents because the other siblings work and therefore have the perfect excuse. I went right from caregiver to my children to caregiver to my mom. And it was a gift I would not change on either end. But I can tell you that my sister never knew what it was like to care for our mother because she was working and I wasn't. It just made sense. I am in my late 40's and I see this all the time now with my friends. Whichever daughter or daughter in law that happens to be home or working a job that isn't as highpowered as another sibling's will slide right into caregiver to the elderly parents.

It all makes sense because in a time of crisis or crunch time, the one who is there to do what needs to be done will be called upon by themselves and others to get it done. But I am not sure I"d call that fair or easy. When I stayed home I never said no to anything whether it was volunteering or some family crisis or need that needed to be taken care of. I put that on myself but so did a society that thinks "staying home" means a pampered lifestyle with lots of time to spare.

I do think both sides exaggerate and I think working moms tend to exaggerate how much harder or more important their husbands' jobs are than their own to justify the fact that they still do the majority of housework/child care.

In the majority of situations, a working mom should not be doing EVERYTHING a SAHM does plus working outside the home 40 hours a week. If a mom is working the father needs to be doing as much housework as she does. But from what I've seen, unless the working mom has paid help at home (usually other women- nannies, child care workers and house cleaners are almost exclusively women), she still takes on the majority of housework/child care despite having a job.

In other words, the majority of housework/child care is almost exclusively done by women - either one woman doing it all herself or paying other women to help her out.

 

[DVCJones]

Here's a true story...

Back when I was going to school for my Masters, a woman in our program learned that her DH was having an affair (year long) while she was in class. This woman had three small kids, worked full-time and was going to school full-time. Upon discovery and after graduation, she filed for divorce from her H. Because her income was now more than her H's, HE wanted alimony!!!! He said he supported her through their marriage. Thankfully for her, he didn't get it. The judge did however award HER the max child support and a little alimony to help pay for her college loan. She was able to prove that SHE supported HIM early in his career as she was already established in her job years before they were married. It also helped that she had evidence of the affair.

I think the judge got it right!

 

[arminnie]

Transitional support is one thing. Permanent alimony is just stupid.

A friend of mine was married for 6 years in his 20s. He's been paying alimony now FOR OVER FIFTY YEARS to his ex wife who is a very, very successful professional woman making way more money than he does.

NO ONE deserves permanent alimony for the rest of their lives.

If a man has to pay alimony why doesn't the woman have to keep doing his laundry and cleaning his house?

I lived in Texas for years when there was no alimony - just community property settlements. It made sense.

 

[JoiseyMom]

Transitional support is one thing. Permanent alimony is just stupid.

A friend of mine was married for 6 years in his 20s. He's been paying alimony now FOR OVER FIFTY YEARS to his ex wife who is a very, very successful professional woman making way more money than he does.

NO ONE deserves permanent alimony for the rest of their lives.

If a man has to pay alimony why doesn't the woman have to keep doing his laundry and cleaning his house?

I lived in Texas for years when there was no alimony - just community property settlements. It made sense.

In that case, no, it shouldn't be permanent..but never ever? What about a women that has been married for 40 years, and is now in her 60's/70's. Let's see she worked early on and stopped to raise the kids and her DH liked her home. Now lets say he wants out for whatever reason. You are telling me that she should get money from his earnings/retirement so that she should be as financially comfortable as him? You think she should go work at Mickey D's at this point in her life? Nope...he should be paying her, she earned it. SHe worked for it.


I have been a single mom (non working), a college single mom, a single working mom. A married working mom and a SAHM. They are all hard, equally. They all have pro's and con's. I miss working, I miss adult conversation, at times when my kids were little I thought my brain would cease working. I am/have raised four kids. Two of which had me home when they were babies, but then I was in college and they were in day care. One who I was home with only 11 weeks (DH stayed with her for 9 months), and then she was in daycare full time. When she was five and her brotehr was born I became a full time SAHM. At that point the older two were almost out of high school.

I will say this, the kids need you home more as they are older vs younger. I think my DS12 would hate me not being home.

If I could find an office job during school hours I would jump at it. But they are few and far between. I would like to go back to work once DS is in college, but that is in 6 years. At that point, I will be in my late 50's and jobs at that age (even my current age) aren't that easy to come by. Getting a job in my former career would be very difficult also, and getting hired in corporate America at such an age would be improbable. Most ppl would be retiring.

So, if my DH would decide he wants a divorce...yeah, alimony, big time, plus part of his retirement fund. I do have to say my DH realizes how much I do and he knows he couldn't this without me. And btw..he wants me to stay home more then I did/do.

 

[WDW in Pearls]

A friend of mine was married for 6 years in his 20s. He's been paying alimony now FOR OVER FIFTY YEARS to his ex wife who is a very, very successful professional woman making way more money than he does.

Tell your friend that he needs to go back to court and get the alimony adjusted! A coworker of mine went through the same thing. Situations change and the courts recognize that. Unfortunately a lot of people paying alimony aren't aware of this and continue to be bled dry.

 

[kellyg403]

I hesitated to even reply to this thread but I will anyway!

I believe in alimony for a period of time. Especially in situations where there has been a SAHP. Man or women. In the last ten years I have seen more women leave the families, leaving the dad with the kids. I can think of 3 in my close circle of friends. So, I don't think at this time its a male vs female type thing.

I was a SAHM when my children were smaller. My ex decided the grass was greener elsewhere and we divorced. I had been out of the workplace for several years as the SAHM part was a joint decision. I did work pt on holidays for a local florist delivering to make a few dollars extra here and there. However, once the divorce was underway, my ex painted the picture that I was the one who decided to stay home not him. He was military and deployed on average every 6 months for a year at a time. I can remember whole years he was gone, especially after the first Gulf war. When you add in TDY and other job requirements he had, I can assure you that being a single parent wasnt a lot of fun. Anyway, I got a job and kept on working at it. I had to fight for daycare expenses, etc etc etc. It was the worse thing ever. I did not ask for almony. I didn't ask for 1/2 the retirement. In the end I just wanted to move forward. I didn't have the money to continue fighting the process. Fast forward a few years. He married someone, with no children, who had gotten divorced and was still receiving spousal support and in the settlement received 1/2 of her ex's retirement. He continually talks about how she earned it. Its bizarre to see him actually think since the income actually benefits HIS household how great it is. But he fought tooth and nail not to pay it because it was 'my' choice to have children etc.

Looking back, I think it certain situations alimony is warranted. Forever..no.
Retirement plans, well...the family scrimps so that the retirement account can have a contribution. I am not sure I believe in 1/2 but a start up on the spouse's own 401k or IRA would be a start. Essentially, the SAHP is starting over. And its crazy to see how things 'change' once the divorce gets going. Its like people live totally different lives for years.

Kelly

 

[Colleen27]

Transitional support is one thing. Permanent alimony is just stupid.

A friend of mine was married for 6 years in his 20s. He's been paying alimony now FOR OVER FIFTY YEARS to his ex wife who is a very, very successful professional woman making way more money than he does.

NO ONE deserves permanent alimony for the rest of their lives.

If a man has to pay alimony why doesn't the woman have to keep doing his laundry and cleaning his house?

I lived in Texas for years when there was no alimony - just community property settlements. It made sense.

That's an unusual case, though, and something he could likely get changed if he took it back to court. My state has lifetime alimony, but it wouldn't apply there... Unless you've been married and out of the workforce for an extended time (I've heard 10+ years is the rule of thumb) you're unlikely to get any alimony at all, and lifetime alimony is generally reserved for long term marriages and situations involving older couples. But your friend's case doesn't make a case against lifetime alimony as a whole, just against how it was applied in his situation.

Around me, it seems like the "divorce years" are late 40s/early 50s... the kids are in high school or college, and there's less pressure to stay together I suppose. A woman who has been out of the workforce for decades and whose husband decides he's looking for greener pastures when the kids are grown is never going to make up that ground in the workforce. In fact, in this economy she'd be lucky if she got an interview at McDs much less an actual job offer - my MIL was laid-off at 55ish and couldn't even get retail work, despite a 30+ year work history (fortunately she and FIL are happily married, so they decided just to call it "early retirement" and make do on his income). In that case, lifetime alimony may very well be justified. Not so much for someone in their 20s or 30s that can reasonably be expected to launch a career.

 

[tasha99]

I hesitated to even reply to this thread but I will anyway!

I believe in alimony for a period of time. Especially in situations where there has been a SAHP. Man or women. In the last ten years I have seen more women leave the families, leaving the dad with the kids. I can think of 3 in my close circle of friends. So, I don't think at this time its a male vs female type thing.

I was a SAHM when my children were smaller. My ex decided the grass was greener elsewhere and we divorced. I had been out of the workplace for several years as the SAHM part was a joint decision. I did work pt on holidays for a local florist delivering to make a few dollars extra here and there. However, once the divorce was underway, my ex painted the picture that I was the one who decided to stay home not him. He was military and deployed on average every 6 months for a year at a time. I can remember whole years he was gone, especially after the first Gulf war. When you add in TDY and other job requirements he had, I can assure you that being a single parent wasnt a lot of fun. Anyway, I got a job and kept on working at it. I had to fight for daycare expenses, etc etc etc. It was the worse thing ever. I did not ask for almony. I didn't ask for 1/2 the retirement. In the end I just wanted to move forward. I didn't have the money to continue fighting the process. Fast forward a few years. He married someone, with no children, who had gotten divorced and was still receiving spousal support and in the settlement received 1/2 of her ex's retirement. He continually talks about how she earned it. Its bizarre to see him actually think since the income actually benefits HIS household how great it is. But he fought tooth and nail not to pay it because it was 'my' choice to have children etc.

Looking back, I think it certain situations alimony is warranted. Forever..no.
Retirement plans, well...the family scrimps so that the retirement account can have a contribution. I am not sure I believe in 1/2 but a start up on the spouse's own 401k or IRA would be a start. Essentially, the SAHP is starting over. And its crazy to see how things 'change' once the divorce gets going. Its like people live totally different lives for years.

Kelly

When you talk about retirement, do you mean an IRA? If you mean the military retirement plan, if you were married at least 10 years that coincided with military service, you are entitled to a portion (no fighting over it, it's a formula).