Shooting at Va Tech

Sadly it dont seem that way here! Many are wondering as to why after the first murders there wasn't a lock down they still had a murder loose. VT sent emails (which make NO sense to me) saying about a isolated incident on the campus.
When the 911 call came in for the "second round"...again a EMAIL was sent out to stay in your dorms etc!

That whole "we sent emails' defense is the same as saying NO we didn't warn anybody, IMO!

Are there no Loudspeakers, Fire Alarms, etc in this school?:confused3

I am sure once the week unfolds we will know more.:sad1:


Honestly, it's not that easy to get word out to a college campus. Speaking in my isolated experience (4 years of being a student, a year so far post-graduation working, as well as being an RA when I was a student at George Mason University), there really are no loudspeakers or mass communication systems. Fire alarms would serve to get everyone outside, which is the exact opposite of what they'd want people to do- stay inside away from windows. Short of a text-messaging system, I can't think of a quicker way to get info to a large group of people than email. And college kids check email religiously, I would check mine at least every half-hour if I was in my room. Once some people got the email, the word of mouth would have to spread, and then students could at least check their own email to get official word. I just don't think it's a bad system.
 
Honestly, it's not that easy to get word out to a college campus. Speaking in my isolated experience (4 years of being a student, a year so far post-graduation working, as well as being an RA when I was a student at George Mason University), there really are no loudspeakers or mass communication systems. Fire alarms would serve to get everyone outside, which is the exact opposite of what they'd want people to do- stay inside away from windows. Short of a text-messaging system, I can't think of a quicker way to get info to a large group of people than email. And college kids check email religiously, I would check mine at least every half-hour if I was in my room. Once some people got the email, the word of mouth would have to spread, and then students could at least check their own email to get official word. I just don't think it's a bad system.

Makes sense! My only concern is the word of mouth....would MOST students believe it?

How bout uniformed security or police with Bullhorns? Would that have helped.
 
NO. I stick with statistics that are actual proof of reality!
Sorry, but statistics, in and of themselves, prove nothing... I don't care what the topic is. Someone mentioned that the US death stats are misleading because they reflect our nation's popular choice of firearms as a means to commit suicide. If I took you at your word and only looked at the statistics I would conclude that charcoal in Japan should be banned and if they did so, their suicide rates would drop!

Sadly it dont seem that way here! Many are wondering as to why after the first murders there wasn't a lock down they still had a murder loose. VT sent emails (which make NO sense to me) saying about a isolated incident on the campus.
When the 911 call came in for the "second round"...again a EMAIL was sent out to stay in your dorms etc!

That whole "we sent emails' defense is the same as saying NO we didn't warn anybody, IMO!

Are there no Loudspeakers, Fire Alarms, etc in this school?
I heard the president of one of our state universities (Central Michigan U.) on the radio this AM coming to the defense of the VT president and administration. He also referenced an on-line article at The Chronical of Higher Education (Link)that backed up a lot of his points about the Monday morning QB'ing of how VT reacted.

The CMU president said they had a successful lock-down a year or so ago when a student was attacked on campus, but he said it was easy to pull off because it was in the evening when there were very few classes and the students were mostly in or near their dorms. In the case of VT, the 1st incident happended before the bulk of administrators were in their offices for the day or were in transit. As for the students, most of them were either out the door or scrambling to get to classes... so how effective would a 8:00 AM e-mail have been? How could word has been effective sent to all of the students already sitting in classrooms? Should they set of the fire alarms? Should they set off the tornado sirens? What were the students supposed to do if the alarms went off? Collect in numbers in the building's shelters (not good) Run out in the open and wait for the fire trucks? (probably not good either).
 
So, were the police setting up a perimeter & waiting for SWAT, or were they not in the area at all when the shooting began?

The main doors were chained shut from the inside & prevented the police from getting inside the building quickly.


Honestly, it's not that easy to get word out to a college campus. Speaking in my isolated experience (4 years of being a student, a year so far post-graduation working, as well as being an RA when I was a student at George Mason University), there really are no loudspeakers or mass communication systems. Fire alarms would serve to get everyone outside, which is the exact opposite of what they'd want people to do- stay inside away from windows. Short of a text-messaging system, I can't think of a quicker way to get info to a large group of people than email. And college kids check email religiously, I would check mine at least every half-hour if I was in my room. Once some people got the email, the word of mouth would have to spread, and then students could at least check their own email to get official word. I just don't think it's a bad system.

I agree with you - Tech did do a good job at getting word out about the lock down - email is the BEST way to reach students, and they all immediately texted each other (and parents,etc) when they got word - so it spread pretty quickly, imo. The only criticism I have is that the emails were fairly vague - but I'm guessing that is because they didn't know themselves the extent of what was happening at that time.

I don't think there was any reason to lock down the campus after the first killings in the dorm - they processed the info & made a decision based on the info they had at the time - there was absolutely no way to predict he would go on to kill 30 more people at that time.

This could have happened anywhere - not just in Virginia - and Virginia's gun laws, restrictions or a preceived lack of them didn't cause this to happen. It was caused by a psycho who was determined to hurt as many people as he could.

Going back to hugging my daughter now... :goodvibes
 

I don't think we want to live iin a country where only the criminals are able to get guns. If someone wants something bad enough and they will get one. If some law abiding citizens had a gun in one of those class rooms yesterday, things may have been quite different. No one can count on the "authorities" to protect you. To disarm law abiding citizens would be a big mistake.
 
If some law abiding citizens had a gun in one of those class rooms yesterday, things may have been quite different.

Yea, it might've been. 50 might've been killed when some petrified 18-year-old conservative gun-toting student started firing back at a guy with no fear of death IN A CLASSROOM FULL OF CHAOS. It's tough to talk in hypotheticals, isn't it?
 
The main doors were chained shut from the inside & prevented the police from getting inside the building quickly.

Has it been determined yet if that was done by the gunman or the college yet?

I don't think there was any reason to lock down the campus after the first killings in the dorm - they processed the info & made a decision based on the info they had at the time - there was absolutely no way to predict he would go on to kill 30 more people at that time.

Too true - "domestic disputes" happen all the time & how often do they end in something like this? The police aren't psychic.

This could have happened anywhere - not just in Virginia - and Virginia's gun laws, restrictions or a preceived lack of them didn't cause this to happen. It was caused by a psycho who was determined to hurt as many people as he could.

We have pretty strict gun control laws here in Canada, & as mentioned, it's happened here too. If someone wants to cause pain & havoc, they'll do it.

Going back to hugging my daughter now... :goodvibes


Exactly what we all need to do - tell the ones we love how much we care about them!
 
I assume that Va Tech is a large campus?

I attended a large campus and I can't imagine successfully locking down the many buildings and public areas very quickly. I agree that alarms going off would have just confused people. Maybe some type of PA system should be considered at all public facilities? I wonder how a deranged gunman would react though?
 
I go to a fairly large size campus and we have loud speakers and such through the campus and in the buildings. If something like this happened at mine they could get the word out, plus we have our radio station plus everyone on campus has a cellphone for the most part.
 
Yea, it might've been. 50 might've been killed when some petrified 18-year-old conservative gun-toting student started firing back at a guy with no fear of death IN A CLASSROOM FULL OF CHAOS. It's tough to talk in hypotheticals, isn't it?

It's not a hypothetical, Dana. Perhaps you don't remember what happened at Appalachian Law School in 2002?
 
Sadly it dont seem that way here! Many are wondering as to why after the first murders there wasn't a lock down they still had a murder loose. VT sent emails (which make NO sense to me) saying about a isolated incident on the campus.
When the 911 call came in for the "second round"...again a EMAIL was sent out to stay in your dorms etc!

That whole "we sent emails' defense is the same as saying NO we didn't warn anybody, IMO!

Are there no Loudspeakers, Fire Alarms, etc in this school?:confused3

I am sure once the week unfolds we will know more.:sad1:

Unfortunately I'm betting a lot of campuses don't have a system in place for this type of incident. I heard on the news tonight about a school that has a text message system in place. What good are e-mails or texting going to do for those that don't have their phones right with them or their computers turned on and they are on them at the time. There has to be something, some kind of system that doesn't rely on students being in the right place at the right time and having all their gadgets with them. What that is though, I don't know. I also don't get why the classroom doors did not have locks on them?
 
Yea, it might've been. 50 might've been killed when some petrified 18-year-old conservative gun-toting student started firing back at a guy with no fear of death IN A CLASSROOM FULL OF CHAOS. It's tough to talk in hypotheticals, isn't it?
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/1/25/153427.shtml

Not so hypothetical. It happened less than 30 miles from there in 2002.

or this.
http://www.times-news.com/opinion/local_story_283104056.html?keyword=secondarystory

It didn't take long to find them. I am sure you can find your own examples.
Not all students are 18 years old. BTW. An armed professor would have been able to do the same as the vice principal in the second link.
An "armed" anyone couldn't have done any worse than what happened yesterday. I believe the campus police, who are actual police officers aren't even armed on that campus.
 
I just wanted to chime in on the informing students portion of this thread.

My understanding from what I have heard on the news (primarily listening to the press confrences with the VT officials) is that the first incident appeared to be a single incident confined to the West AJ dorm and that they did lock down the students in that dorm, spreading the news via police officers and RAs. I'm not sure what else they should have down at that time other then that. They immediately secured the area in question/of concern.

I know everyone wants to second guess, but hypothetically, if there was a "simple" double murder across the street from say your office building, would you expect someone to come to your building and tell everyone to lock themselves inside?

And from my understanding, the first incident initially appeared like a "simple" domestic violence murder. The officials began investigating it immediately and were questioning a "person of interest" before the second event even occured. It wasn't like the police were lollygagging. How would anyone know what was going to happen? This guy didn't go into that dorm with guns blazing, that didn't happen until Norris Hall.

I'm probably in the minority, but I hate when people second guess officials at every turn and expect an official response 10 minutes before something happens (the first shooting in this case - yes this is an exaggerated statement, but sometimes it truely seems like that.) Hey, we just found out today, this man had crazy writings in some of his classes - we should have known what he was planning on doing!:rolleyes: this was a sarcastic statement

Sorry if this was a bit of a rant, I've just been frustrated over the reporting and bashing of officials who where trying to do what they felt needed to be done. FYI, I am not, nor am I related to an "official" of any sort.

I of course feel awful about this entire situation and am actually just sickened by the carnage that this one student could commit. It is just so foriegn to my senses that someone could do this to others. My DH and I are diehard UVA fans (VT #1 rivals) and we are Hokies today!
 
On Monday, April 23, 2007, all are encouraged to wear Virginia Tech colors (Burnt Orange and Chicago Maroon) to remember the tragic events of April 16, 2007 in which 32 faculty/staff and students were killed as a result of a deranged murderer. Show everyone that we, this generation, will not forget the events of that day-ever!
 
I think one thing that just keeps standing out to me, in the wake of yet another school shooting spree is that there still has not been any procedure taken to ensure students are made aware when there is a dangerous person on campus. What saved many of them was having a few seconds to get away when they realized the danger.

Seconds count in situations like this and there is no alarm set off to warn students that there is a dangerous situation in progress? (I am talking about the second set of events when it was clear that an armed gunman was shooting people, not the first)

We have alarm systems for fire, we have alarms for tornadoes. (btw, how many kids have been killed in school fires or natural disasters in the last 10 odd years? My guess is more have died of gun shot wounds) Have we not had enough of these situations to warrant a look at an early warning system implemented on all school campuses? Smoke detectors and fire alarm systems? Required by law. No one says "too expensive, too complicated...would take too many resources- smoke detectors and fire alarm systems are the law and they save lives) A warning alarm that a dangerous situation is in progress? I don't know of any campus with a system like that. Each building, each room should have panic buttons that would set off a general alarm in that particular building and would also alert the local police of a dangerous situation in progress. If enough panic buttons in one building or more were set off, the alarm would sound campus wide. It would NOT be all that expensive to set up a system like that. It would not be all that complicated.

I don't agree that arming people on the campuses would make enough of a difference. The issue isn't enough heroes, it's being caught completely unaware and not having a chance to escape the danger. We don't solve the fire risk issue by adding fire rescue people on campuses, we have alarm systems so people can be alerted before the firemen get there. This issue is no different and requires a similar system, IMHO

The educators and students who died at VT were caught off guard and just a few seconds could have saved some of them. We need a warning system on all school campuses, IMHO.
 
Seconds count in situations like this and there is no alarm set off to warn students that there is a dangerous situation in progress? (I am talking about the second set of events when it was clear that an armed gunman was shooting people, not the first)

A warning alarm that a dangerous person is at large? I don't know of any campus with a system like that. Each building, each room should have panic buttons that would set off a general alarm in that particular building and would also alert the local police of a dangerous situation in progress. If enough panic buttons in one building or more were set off, the alarm would sound campus wide. It would NOT be all that expensive to set up a system like that. It would not be all that complicated.

I don't agree that arming people on the campuses would make enough of a difference. The issue isn't enough heroes, it's being caught completely unaware and not having a chance to escape the danger. The educators and students who died at VT were caught off guard and just a few seconds could have saved some of them. We need a warning system on all school campuses, IMHO.

This sounds like a good idea to me. And I agree that when there is something actually in progress, some time of "LOCKDOWN" Alarm would be an excellent way of informing people in the immediate area/building. I really like this idea, poohandwendy. Hit a button in one room and everyone in the building knows to take cover.

Taking light of the situation a little bit, but all I can think of right now is a giant red "Easy" button on the wall.
 
I think one thing that just keeps standing out to me, in the wake of yet another school shooting spree is that there still has not been any procedure taken to ensure students are made aware when there is a dangerous person on campus. What saved many of them was having a few seconds to get away when they realized the danger.

Seconds count in situations like this and there is no alarm set off to warn students that there is a dangerous situation in progress? (I am talking about the second set of events when it was clear that an armed gunman was shooting people, not the first)

We have alarm systems for fire, we have alarms for tornadoes. (btw, how many kids have been killed in school fires or natural disasters in the last 10 odd years? My guess is more have died of gun shot wounds) Have we not had enough of these situations to warrant a look at an early warning system implemented on all school campuses? Smoke detectors? Required by law. A warning alarm that a dangerous person is at large? I don't know of any campus with a system like that. Each building, each room should have a panic button that would set off a general alarm in that building and if enough were set off, the alarm would sound campus wide. It would NOT be all that expensive to set up a system like that. It would not be all that complicated.

I don't agree that arming people on the campuses would make enough of a difference. The kids who died at VT were caught unaware and just a few seconds could have saved them. We need a warning system on all school campuses, IMHO.


I don't see how this is at all practical, and that even if it was, how it would save lives. What would an alarm going off campus-wide tell students? To run inside? To run outside? Every situation like this is going to have inherent differences and what would be the safest thing to do in one, might be the most dangerous in another. And it's not as if people today that are trapped in a situation like at VT are cut off from communication - there are numerous cell phones and laptops in any group of people of any size.

A college campus like VT's is the size of a small city. And many, like the University of Florida's, are twice again as big.

As horrific and senseless as a situation like this is, the bottom line is it's still exceedingly rare. That's part of the reason why we're all so shocked and stunned when it does happen.
 
Keep in mind that colleges generally consist of many, many buildings though. You might be able to warn those in one building but what about the other buildings and more particularly those outdoors? We always had many students congregating outdoors.
 
It's time for us to go the route of England, New Zealand, Australia, etc. and shut down the market.
Funny you should mention Australia... The British Journal of Criminology published the results of a ten year analysis of the impact that changes in Australia's gun laws and massive 1/2 billion dollar "buy back" program (that took over 600,000 guns "off the market") had on murder rates. The answer: Zilch!!!
Buyback has no effect on murder rate

Matthew Moore
October 24, 2006

HALF a billion dollars spent buying back hundreds of thousands of guns after the Port Arthur massacre had no effect on the homicide rate, says a study published in an influential British journal.

The report by two Australian academics, published in the British Journal of Criminology, said statistics gathered in the decade since Port Arthur showed gun deaths had been declining well before 1996 and the buyback of more than 600,000 mainly semi-automatic rifles and pump-action shotguns had made no difference in the rate of decline.

The only area where the package of Commonwealth and State laws, known as the National Firearms Agreement (NFA) may have had some impact was on the rate of suicide, but the study said the evidence was not clear and any reductions attributable to the new gun rules were slight.

"Homicide patterns (firearm and non-firearm) were not influenced by the NFA, the conclusion being that the gun buyback and restrictive legislative changes had no influence on firearm homicide in Australia," the study says.

In his first year in office, the Prime Minister, John Howard, forced through some of the world's toughest gun laws, including the national buyback scheme, after Martin Bryant used semi-automatic rifles to shoot dead 35 people at Port Arthur.

Although furious licensed gun-owners said the laws would have no impact because criminals would not hand in their guns, Mr Howard and others predicted the removal of so many guns from the community, and new laws making it harder to buy and keep guns, would lead to a reduction in all types of gun-related deaths.

One of the authors of the study, Jeanine Baker, said she knew in 1996 it would be impossible for years to know whether the Prime Minister or the shooters were right.

"I have been collecting data since 1996 … The decision was we would wait for a decade and then evaluate," she said.

The findings were clear, she said: "The policy has made no difference. There was a trend of declining deaths that has continued."

Dr Baker and her co-author, Samara McPhedran, declared their membership of gun groups in the article, something Dr Baker said they had done deliberately to make clear "who we are" and head off any possible criticism that they had hidden relevant details.

The significance of the article was not who had written it but the fact it had been published in a respected journal after the regular rigorous process of being peer reviewed, she said.

Politicians had assumed tighter gun laws would cut off the supply of guns to would-be criminals and that homicide rates would fall as a result, the study said. But more than 90 per cent of firearms used to commit homicide were not registered, their users were not licensed and they had been unaffected by the firearms agreement.

Dr Baker said many more lives would have been saved had the Government spent the $500 million on mental health or other programs rather than on destroying semi-automatic weapons.

She believed semi-automatic rifles should be available to shooters, although with tight restrictions such as those in place in New Zealand.

The director of the NSW Bureau of Crime Statistics, Dr Don Weatherburn, said he was not surprised by the study. He said it showed "politicians would be well advised to claim success of their policies after they were evaluated, not before". Link
I agree... Legislative ideals that work are a whole lot better than enacting laws that merely make you feel safer.
 


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