Shooting at Va Tech

[Amlee]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but on the news today VT announced that all of those killed would recieve degrees from the school at the end of the school year.

 

[Desiree]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but on the news today VT announced that all of those killed would recieve degrees from the school at the end of the school year.

Oh that is a wonderful thing for the university to do.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but on the news today VT announced that all of those killed would recieve degrees from the school at the end of the school year.

That's a classy thing to do.

 

[Scraper]

I'm not sure if this has been mentioned or not, but on the news today VT announced that all of those killed would recieve degrees from the school at the end of the school year.

A step in the right direction. It will take along time to heal but they will start that is what we Americans do.

Does any one know anything about the killers parents? Did they know he needed help?

 

[Twingle]

The last I heard the parents are currently at the Korean Embassy, in Washington, D.C.

The only other thing that I've heard about the family is that there is an elder daughter, who is a magna cum laude grad of Yale (might be Princeton? now that I'm typing I can't remember for sure).

In yesterday's Washington Post there were articles about how he had been found mentally ill in 2005, there was a court order stating this, and was diagnosed as Autistic sometime prior to Monday's events. His parents would have been notified about the court order, because of his citizenship.

Also, he had been referred to a mental health facility in Blacksburg, again, his parents would have been notified of this.

From what I've heard from students at Tech and people involved, he was estranged from his family - there was no relationship there, supposedly.

 

[asta]

A step in the right direction. It will take along time to heal but they will start that is what we Americans do.

Does any one know anything about the killers parents? Did they know he needed help?

This is the issue that is making me so upset. I know that it is not politically correct to place blame, but I have a college freshman and I find it very hard to believe that they could be unaware of the troubles of this obviously mental ill and evil individual. I know that universities have privacy rules (which I don't understand the need for) but as long as I am paying the bills, I know that I as a parent am going to stay involved. He may have been 23 but surely he was being funded by his parents. I don't think that a person who doesn't speak or make contact with others could maintain a job that would fund his education and other expenses such as buying handguns.

I guess I get so upset about their role in this because I think that they could have been the missing link that should have been aware of all of his problems. I can understand how someone like this can operate under the radar at a large university. What is missing is someone who could have connected his various problems and gotten help before this happened. If his parents enabled him to be there, they should have been in enough contact to know that he didn't get along with anyone, had been thrown out of class and had been reported to the police for stalking.

I also think that the parents had to be aware of the voluntary mental treatment because I think that someone would have to pay the bill. My daughter has had to see the campus doctors a couple of times this year and I can assure you that they expect to be paid just like any other doctor. Our insurance covers her as a dependent and we know when a payment is made.

 

[Cool-Beans]

Ewwwwww

Here is the comment....




Is this a backhanded way of saying - it was partially the students fault?

I think this guy has taken Ann COulter lessons.

As the person I am today, I would fight. But, when I was 19 I'm not sure that I would have...just don't know.

The same thought crossed my mind, though. How could they not fight? How could they just stand there and allow themselves to be murdered? But I figured that they were kids AND most were probably brought up to believe that you should never fight, but try to talk your way through things.

I don't blame the kids for being murdered. Not at all. But the thought did go through my mind.

 

[asta]

From what I've heard from students at Tech and people involved, he was estranged from his family - there was no relationship there, supposedly.

How could he afford to be in school if he was estranged from his family? I know that there are scholarships but how unusual would it be to have full tuition and then living expenses (such as money for handguns). As I mentioned above, he seemed to disfunctional to have a job.

 

[Green Tea]

Once a student hits 18, universities have no authority to correspond with the parents. If a parent calls a professor to talk about a class, they legally can't even discuss the progress with you until the students signs a release.

The mental capacity in terms of firearms was discussed at length last night on the local news. The order under which he was sent to St. Albans was not the kind that would show on a background check. It is typically used in domestic situations to get someone away from an infamed situation. He was sent there and kept overnight, but upon review the following morning was released. If he had been involuntarily committed he would not have passed the background check. Involuntary committment is aparantly a legal definition difference from his temporary holding.

On the firearms application he filed in Roanoke he checked no to the question had he ever been taken to a psychiactric facility(can't remember the wording) That would hav eliminated the possibility of purchasing the Glock hand gun. He lied, but not sure why the state even asks these questions because it is putting a pretty high level of faith in a person trying to purchase something like a gun.

The local news had a large segement of UVA students and their thoughts and wishes for the students in Blacksburg. They are again participating in the wearing of Tech colors tomorrow.

 

[asta]

I know that there are privacy rules out, but as the parent of a 19 year old college freshman I can not imagine being unaware of what is going on with her. We are paying for part of the cost of her education and she is therefore still dependent on us. I think that we should be able to know what is going on with her. During freshman orientation, the university even mentioned that as parents we might want to point this out to our children if they wanted to withhold information.

 

[Tybug]

Just as an update... VT has given the students an option of ending the semester early and taking their existing scores as their final grades. Both DD(who is home now) and DBF(who is at his parent's house in Richmond right now) will be taking that option and coming home for the summer next week! One trip up to pick up furniture and belongings and then at least these two can start enjoying their summer... and we can enjoy them!

 

[Kath2003]

I know that there are privacy rules out, but as the parent of a 19 year old college freshman I can not imagine being unaware of what is going on with her. We are paying for part of the cost of her education and she is therefore still dependent on us.

Yes but if he is estranged from his parents, he's an adult, he can apply to college, for housing, for scholarships all by himself. He doesn't have any obligation to supply anyone with his parents details.

I think that we should be able to know what is going on with her. During freshman orientation, the university even mentioned that as parents we might want to point this out to our children if they wanted to withhold information.

I know I'm British but when I registered at university I was able to ask whether I consented to my parents being informed of academic problems etc. (i.e. if I was slacking). Since my parents paid my tuition direct to the University in my first year, I had no choice but to check this box. In my second year and final year our financial circumstances changed, and although my parents still paid my tuition, it came from MY bank account and they reimbursed me. Since the money was coming from a bank account in my name, not my parents, I was then able to check the box saying I didn't want my parents informed of anything financial or academic.

 

[Deb in IA]

Deb, you forget to mention that this ABC poll wasn't done with a random, scientific, representative sample of the U.S. population.

Instead, you simply quoted an online poll of people who happened to visit the ABC news website. ABC itself points that survey isn't projectable to the U.S. population with the following qualifier on the questionaire page:

Not a scientific survey.

So your generalization that "most of the people in this country don't agree with you" is unsupported - we don't yet know how the country in general is reacting.

It's not scientific only because it does not use a random sampling. Only ABCNews website viewers voted on this. But just because it is not scientific doesn't mean that it's not true.

Sure it's news. It is information, heretofore unknown, about the murderer, that he thought was important enough (to him at least), to actually go an mail, in between his killings.

Sorry, but the State Police disagree with you.

Police Got Little From Gunman's Videos
In the Middle of the Massacre, Va. Tech Gunman Sent a Video Manifesto and Photos to NBC

BLACKSBURG, Va. Apr 19, 2007 (AP)— The disturbing video of an armed Cho Seung-Hui delivering a snarling tirade about rich "brats" and their "hedonistic needs" had some marginal value to the official investigation, but it didn't add much that police didn't already know, State Police said Thursday.

I'm against censorship as much as anyone else. But this case is different. This is something that has no literary, social, or other redeeming value. It added no new infomation. He showed he was crazy, and hated everyone, and felt persecuted - but we already knew that. We didn't need to see it and hear it from his deranged mind. It could, however, lead to more copycat incidents.

http://disboards.com/showthread.php?t=1427227

I liken it to the Steve Irwin death tape. Was it news, did it add any information, did it deserve to be shown? No, and I'm glad they didn't.

 

[Geoff_M]

The NY Times today published a story today that highlights the next to impossible situation that colleges face when it comes to mentally ill students that might be a danger to themselves or others. Buried in the story is a very ironic note... A few month ago Virgina became the first state in the nation to pass a law that prohibits state colleges from taking action against a student that attempts suicide or seek treatment for suicidal thoughts!!!

Laws Limit Options When a Student Is Mentally Ill
By TAMAR LEWIN

Federal privacy and antidiscrimination laws restrict how universities can deal with students who have mental health problems.

For the most part, universities cannot tell parents about their children’s problems without the student’s consent. They cannot release any information in a student’s medical record without consent. And they cannot put students on involuntary medical leave, just because they develop a serious mental illness.

Nor is knowing when to worry about student behavior, and what action to take, always so clear.

“They can’t really kick someone out because they’re writing papers about weird topics, even if they seem withdrawn and hostile,” said Dr. Richard Kadison, chief of mental health services at Harvard University. “Most state laws are pretty clear: you can only bring students to hospitals if there is imminent risk to themselves or someone else, so universities are in a bit of a bind that way.”

But, he said, some schools do mandate limited amounts of treatment in certain circumstances.

“At the University of Missouri, if someone makes a suicide attempt, they mandate four counseling sessions, for example,” said Dr. Kadison, an author of “College of the Overwhelmed: The Campus Mental Health Crisis and What To Do About It.”

Universities can find themselves in a double bind. On the one hand, they may be liable if they fail to prevent a suicide or murder. After the death in 2000 of Elizabeth H. Shin, a student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who had written several suicide notes and used the university counseling service before setting herself on fire, the Massachusetts Superior Court allowed her parents, who had not been told of her deterioration, to sue administrators for $27.7 million. The case was settled for an undisclosed amount.

On the other hand, universities may be held liable if they do take action to remove a potentially suicidal student. In August, the City University of New York agreed to pay $65,000 to a student who sued after being barred from her dormitory room at Hunter College because she was hospitalized after a suicide attempt.

Also last year, George Washington University reached a confidential settlement in a case charging that it had violated antidiscrimination laws by suspending Jordan Nott, a student who had sought hospitalization for depression.

“This is a very, very difficult and gray area, when you take action to remove the student from the campus environment, versus when you encourage the student to use the resources available on campus,” said Ada Meloy, director of legal and regulatory affairs at the American Council on Education. “In an emergency, you can share certain information, but it’s not clear what’s an emergency.”

Ms. Meloy estimated that situations complicated enough to involve a university’s lawyers arise, on average, about twice a semester at large universities.

While shootings like the one at Virginia Tech are extremely rare, suicides, threats and serious mental-health problems are not. Last year, the American College Health Association’s National College Health Assessment, covering nearly 95,000 students at 117 campuses, found that 9 percent of students had seriously considered suicide in the previous year, and 1 in 100 had attempted it.

So mental health experts emphasize that, whatever a college’s concerns about liability, the goal of campus policies should be to maximize the likelihood that those who need mental-health treatment will get it.

“What we really need to do is encourage students to seek mental health treatment if they need it, to remove any barriers to their getting help, destigmatize it, and make it safe, so they know there won’t be negative consequences,” said Karen Bower, a lawyer at the Bazelon Center for Mental Health Law in Washington, who represented Mr. Nott.

With the Virginia Tech killings, many universities are planning to remind faculty members of their protocols. “We’re actually going to go ahead and have the counseling service here do a session for all our instructors and faculty on what to look for, what the procedures are, and what the counseling center can do,” said Shannon Miller, chairwoman of the English department at Temple University.

At Harvard, Dr. Kadison said, dormitory resident assistants watch for signs of trouble, and are usually the first to become aware of worrisome behavior — and to call a dean.

“The dean might insist that they get an evaluation to make sure they’re healthy enough to live in a dorm,” he said. “If it’s not thought that they’re in any immediate danger, they can take or not take the recommendation.”

Last month, Virginia passed a law, the first in the nation, prohibiting public colleges and universities from expelling or punishing students solely for attempting suicide or seeking mental-health treatment for suicidal thoughts.

“In one sense, the new law doesn’t cover new territory, because discrimination against people with mental health problems is already prohibited,” said Dana L. Fleming, a lawyer in Manchester, N.H., who is an expert on education law. “But in another sense, it’s ground-breaking since it’s the first time we’ve seen states focus on student suicides and come up with some code of conduct for schools.”

College counseling services nationwide are seeing more use.

“We’re seeing more students in our service consistently every year,” said Alejandro Martinez, director for counseling and psychological services at Stanford University, which sees about 10 percent of the student body each year. “Certainly more students are experiencing mental illness, including depression.

“But there’s also been a cultural shift,” Mr. Martinez said, “in that more students are willing to get help.”

College officials say that a growing number of students arrive on campus with a history of mental-health problems and a prescription for psychotropic drugs. But screening for such problems would be illegal, admissions officers say.

“We’re restricted by the disabilities act from asking,” said Rick Shaw, Stanford’s admissions director. “We do ask a question, as most institutions do, about whether a student has been suspended or expelled from school, and if they have been, we ask them to write an explanation of it.”

Federal laws also restrict what universities can reveal. Generally, the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act, Ferpa, passed in 1974, makes it illegal to disclose a student’s records to family members without the student’s authorization.

“Colleges can disclose a student’s private records if they believe there’s a health and safety emergency, but that health and safety exception hasn’t been much tested in the courts, so it’s left to be figured out case by case,” Ms. Fleming said.

And the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act prohibits the release of medical records. “The interaction of all these laws does not make things easy,” she said. Link

 

[Geoff_M]

On the firearms application he filed in Roanoke he checked no to the question had he ever been taken to a psychiactric facility(can't remember the wording) That would hav eliminated the possibility of purchasing the Glock hand gun. He lied...

Green Tea, I don't believe this is correct. From what I've read state officials have conceded the sale was perfectly legal under the law. If in fact he submitted a falsified application (even if the question wasn't directly material under state law concerning ownership qualifications) I doubt that this would have been considered a "legal" sale.

 

[disneylover5]

How could he afford to be in school if he was estranged from his family? I know that there are scholarships but how unusual would it be to have full tuition and then living expenses (such as money for handguns). As I mentioned above, he seemed to disfunctional to have a job.

I am sorry to say that this murderer lives about 3/4 of a mile form us. He would be home on holidays...although speak to no one. He came and went from his families house. His parents dropped him off at Tech in the fall. So I do not think he was completly estranged

Just as an update... VT has given the students an option of ending the semester early and taking their existing scores as their final grades. Both DD(who is home now) and DBF(who is at his parent's house in Richmond right now) will be taking that option and coming home for the summer next week! One trip up to pick up furniture and belongings and then at least these two can start enjoying their summer... and we can enjoy them!

An e-mail went out from the school giving the kids three options. I think most will take the current grade option. I spoke to one of my son's friends and he is going to take his grades (he has straight A's right now) but stay and go to classes.....till the end of the year. I think this is wonderful!!

 

[disneylover5]

This is heartbreaking:

 

[DisWDWMay]

Saw an interview with the murderer's great aunt in Korea. She mentioned that when his mom expressed great worry over her son, so they weren't completely unaware of his condition.

Until I hear the complete story, however, I won't pass judgement on the parents. They were apparently very poor in Korea and worked long hours at the laundromat to have a better life for their children. There daughter, at least, seemed to have reached a high level of achievement.

They probably rarely saw their son due to the long hours, and as immigrants probably didn't know all the avenues for help. I know Asian culture celebrates the stoic. Thats why there are such high suicide rates in Japan. They drive themselves to achieve and are uncomfortable showing weakness.

I am not making excuses for him because countless others have had to deal with this. But perhaps his parents just couldn't see or deal with the signs due to his own lack of communication and the barriers that their own culture put up, as well as being essentially strangers in a strange land.

 

[Dannielle_1]

Thought others might like to read this. It is a fairly detailed walkthrough of what occured on April 16, 2007.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802824.html

'That Was the Desk I Chose to Die Under'
By David Maraniss
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, April 19, 2007; Page A01

 

[iggbees]

Thought others might like to read this. It is a fairly detailed walkthrough of what occured on April 16, 2007.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/18/AR2007041802824.html

wow, that was incredible. so frightening. i can't imagine what would have gone through my head had i been in that situation. those people were so brave, every last one of them.