Separating school discipline from home...

[DawnCt1]

Sounds like everyone is having a tough time, the sub, the kids who are behind and the kids who are ahead. The sub is probably coming down very hard on disruptions hoping to get everyone to follow the rules because she herself may be overwhelmed. Your silly family clown may right now be her annoying class clown. No matter the reason for his disruptions, boardem, fear etc it is imperative that you support the teacher in expecting nothing less than great classroom manners from your son. This is a great learning time for you both, schools NEED parents to help them educate and control the kids they can't do it alone, unfortunately many parents think the school needs to deal with everything on their own. If he needs something to do while the teacher is working on the kids who are behind perhaps you could send a coloring or easy to read book for him so he has something quiet to do at his desk.

School should be an equal partnership with the parents in everything that affects the classroom. If a kid acts up at school they should expect consequences at home too, if a kid won't do his homework then he should expect consequences at school too.

You have articulated the goals and the reasons for them very clearly. As parents we can't sit back and say, "that isn't my job".

 

[Wishing on a star]

I still can't believe this....
The OP has stated that she has been involved.
She has stated that she has discussed appropriate behavior with her child. I have never seen one post from her where she stated that 'this is not my job'.

I find NO basis to accuse her of ignoring this problem.
Parenting is her job, and she seems to be doing that.
She posted here on the DIS for different ideas on how she can address the problem, when the school is not even being forthcoming with her.

Yes, it is her job to parent her child. But, it is NOT her job to correct the obvious problems that are going on in that classroom.

I really don't she what more she can do...
Unless it is being suggested that she punish her child for having anxiety and trouble maintaining disciplined behavior as a 5 year old in an undisciplined classroom. And, I would NOT do that to my child in this troubling situation. He is already showing clear anxiety.

So, do we now recommend that she actually go to the school and sit with her son and correct his behaviors... OMG, let's get the 'evil helicopter parent' posters out on that one.

But, hey, whatever...
Let the parent bashing continue.

OP, as I had posted before.
If this continues, I would definitely schedule a parent teacher meeting with the principal. If the problem exists in this classroom, there is NOTHING that you can say or do at home that will correct the situation. Based on the fact that this situation did not exist before and only began in the classroom when the new Sub teacher came in.... I am going on the obvious assumption here.

If it is obvious that your son needs a more heavily structured and disciplined and positive learning environment in the classroom, then the only thing you can do is voice that to the Principal. And, realistically, I am not thinking that would get you anywhere.

 

[MELSMICE]

Speaking from experience, there is a huge difference between a 60 year old woman dealing with 5 year olds & a new, young teacher dealing with 5 year olds.

Being a dance instructor, I've worked with children from 3 years old through high school aged kids for well over 30 years now. At 47 I am a much more patient person with the younger children. I know what to do to control them, how to praise them & how to reprimand them. After so many years I have learned many simple tricks that a young teacher would not know.

I have young assistants that help with my classes. They are learning from me & my other "mature" instructor, however, they don't have the experience yet to deal with different situations. I just asked my other preschool instructor today why it seems that the kids are so much cuter & easier to deal with the older you get.

It sounds like the sub in this case may not be experienced enough to deal with children this age to really connect with them. The original teacher was more experienced and probably had a very loving approach to the children. She was probably able to deal with kids that fooled around or might not listen for a bit & think nothing of it, whereas the sub may be getting flustered & the class is getting out of control.

Example: While teaching my 5-7 year olds today two of them started fooling around. One of my young assistants called out there names & told them to be quiet. They continued. I continued talking but walked up to them & gently put my hands on their heads until they both looked at me. I continued to talk, but gave a little bit of a stern look. They knew exactly what it meant & were quiet while I was giving the instructions.

I am by no means a teacher basher, but I'm wondering if maybe the teacher doesn't have enough experience to deal with children this age.

 

[Hannathy]

Sorry but a 5 yr old should be expected to behave in school no matter the environment. Perhaps if he was behaving then it would help it be a more disciplined classroom.

sorry the "but my friends did it to" didn't fly when I was a kid and it doesn't now. He should behave. I don't care if every other child is misbehaving I expect mine to listen

And yes she did say she shouldn't have to deal with his school behavior at home she said it in her very first post.

 

[slytherinbratz]

My co-worker had an issue with her daughter like that. She was constantly getting called to the school for some behavior issue regarding her daughter. One point she actually asked the school if she could go up there one day and observe her daughter without her knowing. She went up there and her daughter did start misbehaving and beijng very disrespectful to her teacher and she walked right up to her in class and gave her a spanking right in front of everyone. It sounds harsh yes and embarassing but it did the trick. Now she doesn't know when/if her mother could show up again and correct her behavior so she behaves all the time now.

Your right if you wait til after school then the child half the time doesn't remember what he/she did wrong especially at that age. So whats the use of punishing them at home.

 

[C.Ann]

Sorry but a 5 yr old should be expected to behave in school no matter the environment. Perhaps if he was behaving then it would help it be a more disciplined classroom.

sorry the "but my friends did it to" didn't fly when I was a kid and it doesn't now. He should behave. I don't care if every other child is misbehaving I expect mine to listen

And yes she did say she shouldn't have to deal with his school behavior at home she said it in her very first post.

I agree with the above.. When I got in trouble in school, you can bet your bippy that I had "consequences" at home as well - regardless of what age group I was in..

Teachers can do very, very little in terms of discipline with kids in school these days without running the risk of everything from being sued to being charged with "inappropriate touching" (which even includes a "hug" for good behavior).. Discipline starts at home - and should continue at home if a child thinks that once they're in school they can just simply "follow the crowd"..

As for the teacher being on leave, that is confidential information that the school has no business releasing to a parent.. OP may not like it, but that's just the way it is..

When a "call" comes home, I would find out what led up to the need for that call to begin with and then find an appropriate way to discipline "XXXX" for whatever instigated the call.. Just make sure that the discipline is in direct relation to the unacceptable "action"..

 

[Wishing on a star]

Any advise out there...

.....

My son is really stressed out about it.
He even woke up crying two nights this week saying his teacher is dead.

I understand respecting the teachers privacy .....
They were very rude when I asked if they knew when she might be coming back.

So two days this week DS got a call home.
I talked to him about what happened but he's FIVE.
He really can't have a big conversation about it.

I just feel like they should do more to handle the discipline at school.
I don't feel that I should have to discipline him at home for something that happened at school.

Am I supposed to punish him at home for something he did 4 hours earlier at school?
Can someone explain the best way to handle "The call home"
Thanks
Suz

Okay, HERE is the jist of the OP's original post...

Read the whole thing in context....
Look at what she said as a preface to the statement you are accusing her of.

Her son is waking up with nightmares.
He is showing very definite signs of anxiety and stress about this already.

Yes, she IS involved...
She has been trying to deal with this.

I agree with her that these types of behaviors should be dealt with effectively IN the classroom. I agree with here that the lack of effective discipline and structure in the classroom may be the very cause of the problem. They don't seem to be doing anything, except the threat and fear of 'calling parents'.

I will say here, with NO reservation or apology that I would be concerned about what is going on with the child, addressing the anxiety, etc... I would NOT be putting the additional stress and anxiety on my 5 year old child by punishing him, AGAIN, at home, unless I were very, very, convinced that there was serious and willful misconduct going on. (five year olds messing around doesn't qualify... THAT is what the teacher is paid to handle every day.)

 

[MM27]

Sorry but a 5 yr old should be expected to behave in school no matter the environment. Perhaps if he was behaving then it would help it be a more disciplined classroom.

sorry the "but my friends did it to" didn't fly when I was a kid and it doesn't now. He should behave. I don't care if every other child is misbehaving I expect mine to listen

And yes she did say she shouldn't have to deal with his school behavior at home she said it in her very first post.

I called a parent this week about something and those were the first words out of the parent's mouth. I said the same thing to her that I said to her son, "I understand that, however, I am dealing with this issue individually and right now I'm talking about your child."

It's not about parent bashing. I've seen great parents, I've seen crappy parents and everything in between. The thing is, when parents constantly say their child doesn't act like this and they won't support anything you do, it does send a message to the child.

I don't need parental support for what I do in my classroom. But kids and parents need to understand that we have rules in the classroom and I expect them to be followed whether I'm there, a specials teacher is there or a sub is there. Having a sub in the room that might not have as much management as the regular classroom teacher does not give the child permission to act up.

 

[C.Ann]

The infractions are minor, laughing at another child, stepping out of line in the hallway, general fooling around with other kids.

The kids are all fooling around.

I talk to my son and he kept saying, other kids were doing the same thing...ect

My son, unfortunately is an extreme follower!

If he sees another kid do something he has to do it.

If a kid is rolling around instead of sitting listening to the teacher, he will do it to.

If a kid throws a paper ball, he will do it to.

All of the above is not a child who is suffering from "anxiety".. It's a child who is misbehaving - period..

The teacher is paid to teach - not spend precious time dealing with a child who just does what he feels like doing because he's a "follower"..

There was a time when teachers would never have to deal with these issues.. Children were taught at home what proper school behavior was - and if they chose to ignore the lessons taught at home there were consequences to pay when mom or dad got a phone call from the school..

I will say here, with NO reservation or apology that I would be concerned about what is going on with the child, addressing the anxiety, etc... THAT is what the teacher is paid to handle every day.)

If there is any anxiety involved, he's picking it up from his mother - as she is the one who is so overly anxious about the "old" teacher not being there and the school not answering her demands regarding the time frame of her absence or what the problem is, it's no wonder the poor kid is waking up thinking the teacher is dead!

The "old" teacher is not there.. There's no need for the mom to know why.. There's no need for the mom to know "when" (or even "if") she's coming back.. She needs to calm down and accept the fact that someone else is teaching her son's class now.. If it makes her anxious to the point where it's rubbing off on her son, the best solution for both of them would be to put in a request for him to be moved to another class.. Based on the OP's own statements of her son's behavior though, I don't think it will resolve the issues..

 

[disfan07]

So this is what I have learned on the Dis from this post and others....

Parents do not want the schools controlling their kids or telling them how they should parent or tell them what to do, etc.

BUT, parents think that the teachers should be responsible for disciplining the child so that they dont have to do it at home.

So...parents dont want the schools telling them when they can take their kids out of school, what they can wear, assigning homework, etc. BUT, they want the schools to discipline their child.

Got it.

OP, you need to chill out about the teacher. She may or may not be coming back and in reality, you have absolutely no right to know what is going on. If your son is having that many problems with his teacher being gone that he's having nightmares, he needs to talk to someone because that is some serious anxiety over something like that. As for the discipline, you are the parent. The teacher is doing their part and trying to correct the behavior while at school adn calling home to tell you what happened (when I was in elementary school, notes would be sent home insetad unless it was serious and those notes had to be signed and returned). You as teh parent are supposed to deal with it and change your childs behavior so that the calls stop. You are just mkaing excuses for why your child is misbehaving rather than trying to correct it. It is NOT the teachers responsibility to correct your childs behavior. You are the parent.

 

[HappyDznyCamper]

So this is what I have learned on the Dis from this post and others....

Parents do not want the schools controlling their kids or telling them how they should parent or tell them what to do, etc.

BUT, parents think that the teachers should be responsible for disciplining the child so that they dont have to do it at home.

So...parents dont want the schools telling them when they can take their kids out of school, what they can wear, assigning homework, etc. BUT, they want the schools to discipline their child.

Got it.

Don't forget they want to be called if a child that was up till 2:30am vomiting goes to school anyway then suddenly gets a fever, afterall the teacher must have know kid was sick even if the parent didn't(and the parent need not share the info about the vomiting with the school). But parents don't want to be told to take a kid that vomited at school home, afterall it was something she ate.
Schools and teachers just can't win these days, maybe we should just abolish the free public school system and parents can shop around for just the right fit for their needs. One size fits all just doesn't work. Of course some people won't be able to afford the education they need but thats just too bad.

 

[smb6]

I have not read through the whole thread, but will weigh in my two cents....

A teacher can certainly have things go on and deserve privacy, but the school really should be able to give you an approx time table of how long she will be out...


Personally- if my kids do something "small" at school, I do not punish them at home, I figure the punishment they get at school (example: silent lunch, ect) is good enough. I talk to them about it, but do not punish them. One of my younger son's also gets weekly behavior thing similar to what you mentioned. Twice he got in trouble at school for making farting noises. I told him that was inappropriate, but didn't punish him because he was punished at school by having to sit out 10minutes of recess. That was fine. The third time it happened the teacher sent a "write up" note along with the behavior sheet saying it was happening too often and that he had to sit out part of recess again. I did not punish him since it was at school- but I did give him an official warning that if it continued I would be punishing him at home also- as three times was more than enough for him to realize not to make farting noises at school. So far, so good.... no more trouble.

 

[mybabesuz]

All of the above is not a child who is suffering from "anxiety".. It's a child who is misbehaving - period..

The teacher is paid to teach - not spend precious time dealing with a child who just does what he feels like doing because he's a "follower"..

There was a time when teachers would never have to deal with these issues.. Children were taught at home what proper school behavior was - and if they chose to ignore the lessons taught at home there were consequences to pay when mom or dad got a phone call from the school..

Exactly the teacher is paid to teach and control her class.
I think a kindergarten teacher needs to know how to keep the kids attention focused and teach!
She has no control over the class.
She is a BAD teacher... period!
Kindergarten is not 3rd grade.
A 5 year old boy will not have the self control that a 10 year old should have.
Their brains are less developed. They need to learn self control.
The first month of Kindergarten is stressful for any kid.
Losing the teacher he grew attached to is stressful!

If there is any anxiety involved, he's picking it up from his mother - as she is the one who is so overly anxious about the "old" teacher not being there and the school not answering her demands regarding the time frame of her absence or what the problem is, it's no wonder the poor kid is waking up thinking the teacher is dead!

The "old" teacher is not there.. There's no need for the mom to know why.. There's no need for the mom to know "when" (or even "if") she's coming back.. She needs to calm down and accept the fact that someone else is teaching her son's class now.. If it makes her anxious to the point where it's rubbing off on her son, the best solution for both of them would be to put in a request for him to be moved to another class.. Based on the OP's own statements of her son's behavior though, I don't think it will resolve the issues..

If they are placing an uncertified and unqualified teacher in the classroom it is my business!
I have a right to know who is teaching my child.
He had absolutely NO behavior issues with his old teacher.
She had total control over the class and no one misbehaved!

 

[mybabesuz]

So this is what I have learned on the Dis from this post and others....

Parents do not want the schools controlling their kids or telling them how they should parent or tell them what to do, etc.

BUT, parents think that the teachers should be responsible for disciplining the child so that they dont have to do it at home.

So...parents dont want the schools telling them when they can take their kids out of school, what they can wear, assigning homework, etc. BUT, they want the schools to discipline their child.

Got it.

My whole point is that I want the school to do more to discipline my child.
I discipline my child at home for what he does at home.
They are not doing anything to discipline my child at school. NOTHING!
The whole problem with schools today is lack of discipline.

 

[mumom95]

My whole point is that I want the school to do more to discipline my child.
I.

Truthfully, the school shouldn't have to discipline your child. Your child should not be doing anything that requires discipline. Your son misbehaving is not the subs fault. Teach your kid to behave and listen to whoever the authority figure is in the classroom. There are lots of 5 year olds that can do this, there is no reason your son can't be one of them. You can make every excuse in the book, the sub has no control, etc, but it all comes down to the simple fact that your son should not be misbehaving.

It's a paren't job to teach their child how to act in public. If they are not acting correctly in public, it's the parent's responsibility to correct the behavior and teach them proper behavior. Maybe if parents would take more time and do this, teachers could spend more time on what they are supposed to be doing, teaching our kids academics.

 

[SandrA9810]

If he's a follower, then he's just following the ways of the other students to get negative attention. And there's plenty of kids that will push parent's buttons just to get their attention, positive (hugs and cuddle time) or negative (yelling, spanking).

When the old teacher was there, she only gave attention to the positive students and ignored the bad behavior. Most kids at that age ALWAYS want attention from some one else. In high school, I was a teacher's aid for the K5 class (private school preK-12th), and ALL the kids adored me, and ALL the kids wanted me to talk to them, play with them, tell me a story.
So the teacher needs to take the approach that the old teacher did. Reward the positive behavior and ignore the negative. Once the kids figure out that the teacher won't talk to them or acknowledge them, they'll start doing things to get those little praises. And hopefully, the OP's child will follow the example and strive for getting attention, in a positive manner.

And empty threats of getting a blue card, isn't affecting him one way or the other. I think the example posted above, about each kid being able to turn around their card will help them learn to do good things.
Maybe for one week, the Sub should start off with all the cards blank, and have the kids earn their bright green happy faces.

 

[Nicolepa]

My whole point is that I want the school to do more to discipline my child.
I discipline my child at home for what he does at home.
They are not doing anything to discipline my child at school. NOTHING!
The whole problem with schools today is lack of discipline.

Well, that is because if the disciple the children at school Johnny's mommy will surely call and complain, threaten to sue, sue, blah, blah, blah.

My son, even in K knew that if he got anything but a green in school he was going to have consequences at home. First day it was loss of TV/Video Games for the day. Second time it was loss of the above for the rest of the week. No excuses, I don't care why he didn't get the green he knew he would have consequence and more importantly (IMO) was he knew what the consequences were so there were no surprises.

 

[waltsgirl]

I have not read every post so sorry if this has already been posted.

I believe the teacher has every right to privacy and the right to be out if needed. I also believe that the parents as well as the students have every right to know if and when (even approx) the teacher will be back. I know when my daughter (10) and son (23), experienced teachers who were out, we may not have known why the teacher was out, but we did know if and when they were coming back.

When I was a sub. teacher I also knew if I was going to be there for 1,2, or 15+ days. So unless a different teacher is coming everyday, which would be very hard on that grade level, I would think the sub knows how long she\he is going to be there and could say.

 

[okeydokey]

You are the teacher's partner, substitute teacher or permanent teacher. The school needs you to back up with discipline at home. I am having a hard time believing that people think the school should handle all discipline.

My daughter was a talker in first grade, chatting with her friend and she often got her card turned, or her color changed or whatever they were doing that year.

The first time in each week it happened she got a consequence, no TV after school. The second time another consequence, plus the first one; no TV after school and ten minutes early to bed. If it progressed she got an increasing consequence PLUS all the others imposed that week.


The next week we started again with a clean slate. Didn't take long for her to realize that I was backing up the teacher and the behavior stopped. Of course it is your job to discipline for school misbehavior. You are a parent. You need to act like one.

 

[hentob]

A 5 year old boy will not have the self control that a 10 year old should have.
Their brains are less developed. They need to learn self control.
The first month of Kindergarten is stressful for any kid.

No. It really is not. My son loved it

My son would look at kids rolling on the floor and make a mental note to tell me about the “naughty boy at school”.

Think of it this way, if most kindergarten children had no “self control”, all kindergarten classes would have all of the children rolling on the floor and throwing paper balls. And that just doesn’t happen Most 5 year olds know right from wrong.

Yours does not if he would be apt to roll on the floor and throw paper balls just because another child is doing so.

His problems at school have been minor... Being silly, not paying attention ect...
I think I have a class clown on my hands!

Not cute Not funny

Work with him. Stop making excuses.