Separating school discipline from home...

[NHdisneylover]

OP--I am respectfully snipping bits of your long quotes so as to be clear what things I am responding to.

Okay now...
I have NEVER said that I expect the school to do all the disciplining of my child.
I said I wished they would do more than just make a phone call home to me.
The teacher's reason's for calling me were that he kept stepping out of line in the hallway and was "fooling around" at center time.

While this stuff seems minor--in a room with 20-30 kids this stuff is very distracting and has to be dealt with.

Okay now...
He is in FULL Day Kindergarten. He has only been to preschool at our church a few days a week.
He has been home with me always.
[/B]

Okay, I am sorry for misunderstanding the length of the day. Nonetheless, he should be able to keep to himself and be still and quiet in circle time and stay in the line even for a full day. Mine were both 5 until Christmas break in full day first grade and it never occurred to them or to me that 5 year olds couldn't handle that.
Maybe part of the problem is that he has always been home with you. Perhaps he is having a hard time understanding the difference between behaviours that are FINE when he is the only kid around and TOTALLY DISRUPTIVE when there are 20-30 others trying to learn. Maybe he is struggling to understand why it cute and funny when he cracks jokes or acts silly at home but not when he does the same thing during circle time. Maybe he is used to not having to be bored because you can skip to discussing whatever he is ready for whereas this cannot happen at school and he has to now learn to deal with boredom.

Okay now...
I HAVE NO PROBLEM DISCIPLINING MY CHILDREN!
I have FIVE of them!
One has graduated from UCONN and is off to LAW School!
One is graduating from UCONN in December and will be a CPA soon and already has a job with a top five Company in the country.
Another just graduated from Highschool with PERFECT Attendence for ALL 4 years of Highschool. (we don't take our kids out of school for Disney).
[/B]

Perhaps teachers' hands have been tied quite a bit in the time between when your older kids were this age and now as regards discipline. There are only two years between my children but even in those two years there were changes in the elementary school they attended about what could and could not be done (keeping kids in for recess was not an option by the time my younger one started--it "denied them them physical exercise in the school day" and eating alone at lunch was also out because it allienated them from the other children).

Okay now...
So please don't make me out to be a dead beat parent!
I will not apoligize for having a smart sensitive funny child.
[/B]

I do not think you are a dead beat parent. I have not seen anyone say that either I DO think you are a bit blinded about your son and are making excuses for his behaviour though. For example, being smart, sensitive and funny is awesome. No one is saying you should apologize for the fact that your son is smart, sensitive or funny. Or that you should tell him not to be. However, being smart does not give him the right to act out and disrupt the learning of the other kids when he is bored and being funny is also great but he needs to know WHEN it is appropriate to act silly or crack a joke and when it is not.

Okay now...
We are always working to keep his behavior in check!
He knows how his is supposed to behave in church and public.
[/B]

Great. Now he needs to learn how to behave in school.

Okay now...
Like other posters have stated, the first few months of Kindergarten are about learning the rules and getting comfortable.
He certainly is NOT learning anything else.
They are teaching shapes and colors!
[/B]

In my experience it is the first few weeks of kindergarten (about a month in total) that really are about learning the rules. Meaning he should have them down by now. Also meaning that he may not have been as bored those first few weeks as the focus was on something new to him (the routines an rules) and not on the academics that so bore him. The sub came in right at the time the shift is to academics--which may be part of why there is a difference in his behaviour with her and you might have well seen it even with the regular teacher 9plus hte honeymoon thing which thankfully someone else has already described)

I'm older and wiser now.
And he isn't my baby.
And I was very young when I had the others.
And what about the fact that his behavior was excellent before his teacher left.
He had a sticker on his shirt every day for GOOD Behavior.
This is not an on going problem, it is a new problem.

Again, before the old teacher left focus was on learning rules and routines--this is usually pretty fun. Also, while they are LEARNING those things in the first few weeks teachers let more slide. Now they are expected to know them and teachers crack down on those who still misbehave. Add in the honeymoon period wrapping up and a bit of normal chaos from having a sub and there you have it.

OP, when did your son start school? I ask because here in NC, kindergartners have a staggered entry. They were not at school for full days all together until September 1st. It is October 11 tomorrow. So, my kids have been in school for less than 6 weeks. You said the sub has been there for 2 weeks now, so if your district is similar to hours, the "real" teacher was only there with the kids for at most 4 weeks. Honestly, I can tell you that it takes 3-4 weeks for the bad behavior to really start showing for most K's. We call that first month "the honeymoon period", because the kids are still nervous about a new situation and on their best behavior. October is when we see what we have to deal with for the year

I am not saying this is definitely the case with your child. I do think you might consider that he could be exhibiting this type of behavior with the original teacher if she were still there. I hope you are not making light of the calls in front of him, because whether you agree with this sub or not, SHE is the teacher and if you do that, your child will continue to not respect her. BTW, if he is rolling on the carpet and playing in the line, he IS disrespecting her. There may be others doing the same, but now is the time for him to learn that we are each responsible for our own actions. Yes, K's are still learning, but most of the hundreds I have taught in my 11 years of teaching have been able to refrain from rolling on the carpet and walk in a line without playing.

This.

Have you spoken with the principal about this? Perhaps they can get the sub some assistance in the classroom. Sounds like the sub is trying really hard to follow the behavior management system that the teacher already had in place.

Kids know there is a difference between a sub and the regular teacher and will take advantage of that. Sounds like the sub is looking for parental support to help get the kids understanding that she means business and that parents will support her. I don't think she's asking you to spank your son or throw him in his room for the weekend, but she would like you to get through to him that right now she is in charge of the classroom and he needs to follow the rules the same way he would if the regular teacher was there.

You don't know how long the teacher is going to be out, so I would say, do something about the behaviors now before the teacher comes back and they become hard to break.

This. Besides, teaching him early on to behave well for subs will help him through all 13 years of school.

Plus a five year old is not really going to make the connection 4 hours later.
Am I supposed to punish him at home for something he did 4 hours earlier at school?

Here is what you said in the OP that indicated to many of us that you do think he is incapable of connecting a consequence at home to a misbehaviour at school AND that you are not willing to punish him at home for things that happen in the school day. I don't see where anyone twisted your words around to get our reaction out of these words You really seem to want it both ways. You say he is too smart for the class but then you say he is not smart enough to make connections of things that happen 4 hours apart

I have to comment on the bored issue that you keep bringing up. Goodness--it happens every year in every kindergarten class. There are kids who come in with no prior academics at all (which does not mean they are not smart BTW) and others who come in having had a lot. The teachers have to start at the beginning (to use your Maria Von Trap example--"let's start at the very beginning it's a very good place to start") and make sure that everyone gets this material. My daughter was already reading simple books when she started kindergarten at 4 (and Junie B Jones level books by Christmas and Beverly Clearly by Easter)--so she was REALLY bored with the academic stuff in kindergarten. I remember her crying after school about it and being so frustrated that they were spending days and days learning stuff her 2 year old brother already knew. I sympathized with her but still reminded her that other kids had not all had parents or preschool teachers to teach them this stuff and they had to learn it before the class could move on made then I tried to focus her attention on anything new or interesting that happened in the school day (a story, a craft, etc). 99% of the time the gap narrows and by 2nd grade most kids are on more or less the same age and by then it is much easier to do some differentiated learning and have various groups by level anyway (you'll probably see some of this in kindergarten too once they have been in long enough for the teachers to start seeing the groupings AND have a consistent teacher for a few months, but not everyone does it). For the few kids that the gap widens for, you can look at alternatives at that point. Magnet schools, skipping grades, homeschooling, special programs. My daughter did a bit of all of that. Started early to begins with. Moved into a magnet school. We moved to an area without programs and on the advice of her teachers from the magnet school we homeschooled. Now we are in Germany, and even with her trying to learn in a language that she is picking up as she goes and having to catch up with kids who are 5 years ahead of her in French, the schools have elected to keep her in the same grade she was in in the US (skipping grades is almost unheard of here) because she is still picking things up so fast and managing to get top scores on tests. She is 13. The next youngest kid in her class turned 15 over the summer and the oldest are 17. Luckily she handles the age difference well and is pretty mature--it makes me nervous though. Sorry to ramble on about my daughter, but my point is that through all of that, and even being as bored as she often is at school--boredom has NEVER been an excuse for poor behaviour in class. Not even when she was "only" four. Honestly, i would have held her back if I had felt she was not mature enough to handle the behaviour aspect at school. My own kids' have most bitterly disliked children like yours in school--the ones who keep the teacher from teaching because the teacher must correct their antics. Second grade was nearly a daily dose of DD crying in frustration after school because so much of the school day went into telling so and so to be quiet and spending "forever" getting everyone to line up and she felt like the few things that she could learn (they were doing US geography which DD had never really learned at home--she was so excited to LEARN something at school) were getting shortchanged during the day because of the kids who didn't behave. My son has his own issues at school and could rarely care if hte academics move on or not but he also gets terribly frustrated with the time that is wasted on other people's failure to control themselves in class. Maybe you can explain to your son that he will get past the "boring" material much faster if he does not interrupt the teaching of it to roll on the floor, be funny, step out of line, etc. Of you could just tell him it is not fair to the other children for him to disrupt their learning. Or that it is disrespectful to the teacher.Or, all of the above

 

[NHdisneylover]

sorry--double post

 

[mybabesuz]

see. now it just sounds like the OP is just making excuses AND bragging about her children instead of actually trying to do anything to help.

OP, you are the parent. If your child is behvaing teh way he is in class (not listening, acting up etc) and being a class clown (which is NOT cute at all) it can be most likely remedied at home. In my 3 adn 4 year old preschool/daycare classes, we always knew which parents actually disciplined and talked to their children at home because they were kids thet WE DIDNT have to continuously talk to. We would tell their parent at pick up that their child was not listening and that they were goofing off during circle time, or lunch, etc. The kids who continued to do this day after day, week after week, were the ones who were not being disciplined or talked to about their behvaior at home. The ones whos parents did do that, stopped the behavior except for maybe the occassional slip up.

Talk to you child about his behavior and tell him why it is not acceptable. Why is that so hard to do?

And why on earth can you not get over the sub issue and just tell your child that mrs. so and so is doing something somwhere else for a while and she would be so happy if you could behave for her while she is gone. Is that so hard to tell him?

I have done both. I never said I wouldn't or didn't speak to my child.
I told my son and his whole class that they should act the way Mrs. *** would want them too.
And she would be proud of them.
This is a ONE WEEK PROBLEM!
No ONE is getting that it is NOT an ON GOING ISSUE.
I posted here to vent, so I would not vent in front of my child.

 

[torinsmom]

I agree you have been very lucky! I think people don't understand why this warrants an award though...what is it that your proud of, that your kids were lucky and never got sick? My kids never "cut" school, they only stayed home if legitimately ill (rarely), but I guess they weren't lucky enough so they don't warrant an award?

I have done both. I never said I wouldn't or didn't speak to my child.
I told my son and his whole class that they should act the way Mrs. *** would want them too.
And she would be proud of them.
This is a ONE WEEK PROBLEM!
No ONE is getting that it is NOT an ON GOING ISSUE.
I posted here to vent, so I would not vent in front of my child.

I definitely applaud you for that. Too many parents pass on their dislike/disrespect of a teacher to their children. It's really not fair to either party.

I thought the problems had been going on for two weeks? Anyway, even if it just started, it is best to nip it in the bud(to quote Barney Fife). Whatever that takes, whether it is you talking to him, or having a conference with the teacher.

When DS was in 1st grade, he was playing around at circle time. When I talked to him, he explained that he could play around and still listen to what the teacher was saying(my little multi-tasker) What he didn't quite get was that the other students around him could not listen and were distracted by his antics and that it was disrespectful to the teacher. After me explaining this and a few days of not much fun at home, he "got" it and has never gotten in trouble for playing around at school again.

 

[mybabesuz]

I think this is reasonable. These are things my colleagues who teach the younger kids do. I'm curious, though - what did his regular teacher do for discipline? Did she use the "turn the card" method? The sub may just be trying to keep the system the regular teacher used.

If the regular teacher was that much fun, no wonder he's unhappy she's not there. But, not every teacher can be "Maria," and the ones who aren't need all the help they can get. All the more reason to talk to your DS about behaving in class. As for what she's teaching, if that's the curriculum, that's what she has to teach. If it's not, then you need to talk to the principal about that. If it's the curriculum and he's past that, then you need to consider other options - gifted program, different school. Do the other kids know their shapes & colors? Maybe they need that instruction. Personally, I wish I could move along at a faster pace for my most advanced students, but our classes are just not set up that way. I know some of them are bored, but they're older kids and know how to channel that more productively.

It sounds like this sub may be there for a good while. It might be better for everyone to try to make the best of it. Maybe you or some of the other parents could volunteer to come in to class to help out. But maybe approach it as "how can I help you?" rather than "you need to do this." I'm sure you meant well with what you said, but it may not have come across that way. You may think she should be able to handle the class by herself, but our K, 1, and 2 teachers all have 20+ years experience and they all have parapro's in the class with them. And they will all tell you they absolutely need them. She's probably just as frustrated as you are, and having a parent (or parents) who are willing to help out at school might be just the ticket. Just a thought.

The old teacher praised the whole class and individuals as often as possible.
She would say, "look how wonderful the children are", and "what a good job you are doing so and so"
She did use card turning. But I only saw her turn one child's card once.
The kids thrived on her praise. I'm sure they are all missing it.
There is a parent volunteer in the classroom every morning.
My day is Thursday.
Last week the teacher turned 8 cards in the 2 hours I was there.
There were children throwing crayons, crawling under tables, and talking out of turn saying silly things to the teacher.
Usually the teacher divides the kids into three centers during this time.
One group of 4 does the listening center.
They basically listen to a story on headphones.
Another group of 6 does something with the parent at a table.
And the teacher would have the other 10 kids.
The first four weeks it was a shape of the week related activity.
The two weeks I was there with the sub, she kept everyone in one group
and basically did a coloring activity, finish the picture and color it.
Color this on your paper one color another thing another color.
I tried to go around and help individuals but a lot of the kids started misbehaving
and the teacher clearly got frustrated and start telling them all to stop it, ect.
It actually became uncomfortable to be there because she was so frustrated.
I tried to help, and say come on guys you wouldn't do that if Mrs. *** was here.
But it didn't help.
I did not hear one positive thing said to any child in the two weeks with the sub.
I did speak to the principal before I left and she said she would talk to the sub.

 

[mybabesuz]

I definitely applaud you for that. Too many parents pass on their dislike/disrespect of a teacher to their children. It's really not fair to either party.

I thought the problems had been going on for two weeks? Anyway, even if it just started, it is best to nip it in the bud(to quote Barney Fife). Whatever that takes, whether it is you talking to him, or having a conference with the teacher.

When DS was in 1st grade, he was playing around at circle time. When I talked to him, he explained that he could play around and still listen to what the teacher was saying(my little multi-tasker) What he didn't quite get was that the other students around him could not listen and were distracted by his antics and that it was disrespectful to the teacher. After me explaining this and a few days of not much fun at home, he "got" it and has never gotten in trouble for playing around at school again.

The sub has been there for two weeks.
My son's started getting in trouble the second week.

 

[mjkacmom]

I am so happy to see you two posting. I find myself reading here and wondering if attitudes have really changed that much or if the opinions here are skewed and I am taking great comfort in seeing other parents who expect their kids to behave or else meet with consequences (from their parents even).

I have a different take from the OP (but maybe my views are clouding my judgement). If my child is not behaving in school, I really want the teacher to punish my child. Heck, sit my child in the corner, have my child miss recess or something fun, put my child in the chair of shame - let's nip this in the bud! I'm tired of the "not my kid" parents getting in the way of teachers being able to discipline children in their classroom. And I do think it's great that the teacher called the parent and let her know - I've found that many teachers are now afraid to call the parents, because the parents say "not my kid!"

 

[jodifla]

I take it situation by situation.

Frankly, this teacher sounds like she's in over her head. Who calls over such minor stuff? She doesn't have control of her classroom, and she has even less of an idea of what's appropriate.


In my son's K class, the teacher planned activities that were too long. I came in to help with my son who was struggling with her activities, and then noticed that every other boy was struggling as well, even ones without IEPs. The truth was, she just wasn't a good K teacher. By the end of the morning, she'd called out almost every boy's name. The whole class could sense her frustration.

After a chat with the principal, I could tell that she was frustrated as well -- with the teacher. The teacher was gone the following year.

 

[MELSMICE]

Last week the teacher turned 8 cards in the 2 hours I was there.
There were children throwing crayons, crawling under tables, and talking out of turn saying silly things to the teacher.

This says a lot right here. I agree with you, OP, that the teacher doesn't have control of the class. Not all parents have the perfect child (like some posters on this thread do! ).

If that many children are acting out, there is blame on both the children & the teacher. Obviously, children should behave, but the teacher should be able to control a class & know what to do when she starts to lose control.

My guess is if she said, "Wow, look how nice Mary is sitting at the table & paying attention," that about 4 other kids would follow suit. By then saying, "Oh, I'm so glad that so many of you have chosen to sit down and follow directions" that the remainder of the students would follow suit also. No card turning & the students know what's expected of them.

I'm sorry that some posters believe you are completely in the wrong in your thinking. Most 5 year olds do know right from wrong and will do their best to behave. No child wants to intentionally get in trouble at that age.

Also, as far as remembering a song but not remembering why they had a card turned..............a catchy little song is something fun that they want to remember. I don't find it strange at all that a 5 year old may not always remember why they had a card turned. The 5 year olds I work with sometimes don't remember what we did at the beginning of class when I ask them what they learned today and class is only an hour long.

 

[PFlamingo]

Usually the teacher divides the kids into three centers during this time.
One group of 4 does the listening center.
They basically listen to a story on headphones.
Another group of 6 does something with the parent at a table.
And the teacher would have the other 10 kids.
The first four weeks it was a shape of the week related activity.
The two weeks I was there with the sub, she kept everyone in one group
and basically did a coloring activity, finish the picture and color it.
Color this on your paper one color another thing another color.

Well, there are all different ways to run a class, but it sounds like this group does better with that rotational activity approach. I'm wondering if the sub has been given any real lesson plans to use with the kids, or if it's just "busy work". If this sub is there for the "long haul," that's something the principal should be giving her guidance on, or assigning a "teacher mentor" to guide her. Most subs aren't responsible for lesson plans and just do the work they're given for the kids.

I tried to go around and help individuals but a lot of the kids started misbehaving
and the teacher clearly got frustrated and start telling them all to stop it, ect.
It actually became uncomfortable to be there because she was so frustrated.
I tried to help, and say come on guys you wouldn't do that if Mrs. *** was here.
But it didn't help.

I know you meant well with this, but... The way kids' minds work with this one is, "Yeah, well she's not Mrs.***. We don't like her, so we don't have to behave." This is from my middle-school "informants," who admit to having done this from the time they were little.

I did not hear one positive thing said to any child in the two weeks with the sub.

Well, sometimes it's hard to see anything positive when you feel like you're in the middle of chaos. I once worked with a principal who said things like, "Thank you, Johnny, for looking at me," just to have something positive to say. When I first saw this, I thought, "you've gotta be kidding me." Then I started some of this with my class and it worked.

Maybe you could try this when you're in the class. When you're walking around, compliment a couple of kids on the great job their doing, and be specific - "you're coloring that so nicely and doing it so quietly; that's excellent." Here's the hard part - ignore the chaos. Don't give attention to the unruly kids. If a kid says, "come look at my paper," say (gently), "I will, as soon as you're sitting and working quietly." You might be surprised at how quickly they'll do that for a little positive attention. That will also model a good strategy for the sub.

I did speak to the principal before I left and she said she would talk to the sub.

Again, I know you meant well with this, but any time a parent goes to talk to a principal, everyone tends to go on the defensive. The principal may feel the need to defend the teacher against an "attack parent" (not saying you specifically, but the generic "attack parent") and she is also defending her judgment in choosing/keeping that sub. I think if you approached the principal with, "I know Ms.*** is trying her best," - whether you believe that or not - then ask about things like whether she's been given some guidance on the curriculum, lesson plans, etc. Try to keep it positive - you want to help the sub to make things better for her and the kids in the class.

One other thing about the card turning. Once the card is turned to red, there's no incentive for the child to improve their behavior. I've had lots of parents say to me, "I've taken away everything, and my child still won't (insert desired behavior here)." At that point, I suggest they set up a system to let their child earn back some privileges for good behavior. You'd be amazed at how many people never think of that, yet, done correctly, it works like a charm. You might suggest (to the principal, who can address this w/ the teacher) that there be a system to let the child earn back a yellow, then green card (or whatever the system is) through good behavior, and avoid the call home. It might be worth a try.

I hope this helps!

 

[DizBelle]

My whole point is that I want the school to do more to discipline my child.
I discipline my child at home for what he does at home.
They are not doing anything to discipline my child at school. NOTHING!
The whole problem with schools today is lack of discipline.

It seems to me that the card turning and the call home ARE the discipline at school. The turning of the card and the call home to the child's parents are hardly nothing. I guess it depends on what the child expects at home after the teacher had to call. If the child can expect their parents not to do anything, then, yes, I guess it is nothing. But it's nothing because you made it nothing.

My guess is that the school cannot

• touch the child at all

• hold back free/play/recess time from a child

• separate the child from the class (time out, lunch or work separately when everyone else is together)

I'm guessing that card turning and calling the parents (who CAN punish the child) are all that they have left.

 

[LuluLovesDisney]

It seems to me that the card turning and the call home ARE the discipline at school.

My guess is that the school cannot

• touch the child at all

• hold back free/play/recess time from a child

• separate the child from the class (time out or work separately when everyone else is working together)

I'm guessing that card turning and calling the parents (who CAN punish the child) are all that they have left.

This is usually the case. I agree that the problem is often lack of discipline at school, but the root cause of that is that teachers are not ALLOWED to do anything listed above. When I was in school, our punishment was often writing things over and over - either the rule we broke, or possibly words out of the dictionary with definitions ten times each. I am not allowed to levy that punishment if I wanted to.