Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[disneynutz]

I called DVC again this morning and was more firm this time and actually got to someone who seemed to somewhat understand the situation. She told me that we are not really the owners until the transfer is complete in Disney's system. I quoted the covenants about being the owners the same date the deed was filed and she said it didn't work that way for resale-- only direct. So apparently it is fine for the sellers to bank the points after closing, as they are still the owners in Disneys eyes. She couldn't point me to where the rules for resale are posted so some one else will call me on Monday about that.

She did tell me that it would be totally fine with DVC to add an addendum with the seller compensating us with a partial refund and it wouldn't restart ROFR like the realtor said it would. So I am pursuing this option.

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

I don't care what you were told, if the deed was recorded, you are the owner as of that date and time. The fact that Disney didn't put it in their system IMO has no legal bearing. I would contact Ken Potrock's office, the head of DVC for their official written response.

Bill

 

[mustinjourney]

I called DVC again this morning and was more firm this time and actually got to someone who seemed to somewhat understand the situation. She told me that we are not really the owners until the transfer is complete in Disney's system. I quoted the covenants about being the owners the same date the deed was filed and she said it didn't work that way for resale-- only direct. So apparently it is fine for the sellers to bank the points after closing, as they are still the owners in Disneys eyes. She couldn't point me to where the rules for resale are posted so some one else will call me on Monday about that.

She did tell me that it would be totally fine with DVC to add an addendum with the seller compensating us with a partial refund and it wouldn't restart ROFR like the realtor said it would. So I am pursuing this option.

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

I would have started the negotiation at $15 a point just so there would be some wiggle room to move down. Depending on the tone of the situation, I would also imply that criminal charges for theft might end up getting filed if things aren't made right. While I might not get my money, it would be worth it knowing they might get arrested and have to pay for an attorney.

Right now you don't have a lot of leverage -- so I would try whatever I could to create leverage. It's a lot easier to negotiate if you have leverage.

 

[mustinjourney]

I don't care what you were told, if the deed was recorded, you are the owner as of that date and time. The fact that Disney didn't put it in their system IMO has no legal bearing. I would contact Ken Potrock's office, the head of DVC for their official written response.

Bill

totally agree. Once that deed is recorded, any subsequent buyer is officially on notice that the original owner is no longer the owner. While the company receiving the transfer of points might not be considered a "buyer" of the real estate, I would think it is analogous enough to where they might be the ones left holding the bag, and the points would have to be transferred back -- or they would have to pay the money.

 

[mustinjourney]

I called DVC again this morning and was more firm this time and actually got to someone who seemed to somewhat understand the situation. She told me that we are not really the owners until the transfer is complete in Disney's system. I quoted the covenants about being the owners the same date the deed was filed and she said it didn't work that way for resale-- only direct. So apparently it is fine for the sellers to bank the points after closing, as they are still the owners in Disneys eyes. She couldn't point me to where the rules for resale are posted so some one else will call me on Monday about that.

She did tell me that it would be totally fine with DVC to add an addendum with the seller compensating us with a partial refund and it wouldn't restart ROFR like the realtor said it would. So I am pursuing this option.

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

when were the points expiring? Were they already banked?

 

[mustinjourney]

More thoughts from another board...

"Just a thought, but I am guessing, just on what you have relayed, that no one from Disneys legal dept has yet been informed of what is going on. (I think it's fairly common in major corporations to avoid legal because they tend to put the fear into other groups and turn over all kinds of rocks) If this new owner cannot get anywhere dealing with DVC, after a decent amount of time to allow them to fix the problem, I would consider contacting legal directly. From the corporate website (Google Disney corporation to get that one), there should be contact links for legal. It sounds a bit drastic, but before I let go of 300 points and continued to put up with the run around, I would contact legal myself and see if they couldn't make this problem magically go away."

 

[Cyberc1978]

I don't care what you were told, if the deed was recorded, you are the owner as of that date and time. The fact that Disney didn't put it in their system IMO has no legal bearing. I would contact Ken Potrock's office, the head of DVC for their official written response.

Bill

I agree with this point. If the deed has been recorded in the buyers name, then the buyer is the owner, not the seller.

Also IMO DVC can not differentiate between direct and resale in this way, a recorded deed is a recorded no matter what. As always Dvc will tell you whatever is needed to "cover" their ... Or try to do so.

Regards

 

[mustinjourney]

https://www.linkedin.com/in/john-mcgowan-86401811

He appears to be one of the attorneys in charge of DVC.

 

[disneynutz]

Don't make threats to Disney, just let them know that you realize that a mistake was made by them, and you would like them to deposit the missing points into your new account. If they want to go after the seller, that's their business.

Bill

 

[Matty B13]

I called DVC again this morning and was more firm this time and actually got to someone who seemed to somewhat understand the situation. She told me that we are not really the owners until the transfer is complete in Disney's system. I quoted the covenants about being the owners the same date the deed was filed and she said it didn't work that way for resale-- only direct. So apparently it is fine for the sellers to bank the points after closing, as they are still the owners in Disneys eyes. She couldn't point me to where the rules for resale are posted so some one else will call me on Monday about that.

She did tell me that it would be totally fine with DVC to add an addendum with the seller compensating us with a partial refund and it wouldn't restart ROFR like the realtor said it would. So I am pursuing this option.

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

Maybe in Disney's eyes you are not the owner, but in the eyes of the law you are!! As soon as the deed is recorded at the OCC you are the owner! I can't believe that DVC is still falling back to this weak argument. I think they are just being lazy and don't want to have to deal with RCI to reclaim the points.

This is the same thing if the previous owner went in and ripped out all the copper pipes in a house they just sold you after the closing was done. It would be a crime, maybe a misdemeanor but still a crime.

 

[Dean]

I don't care what you were told, if the deed was recorded, you are the owner as of that date and time. The fact that Disney didn't put it in their system IMO has no legal bearing. I would contact Ken Potrock's office, the head of DVC for their official written response.

Bill

One cannot be the owner until DVC is notified of the deed recording and transfers it over. IF the deal is different, they may refuse to complete the transfer as in this case. It's better for the buyer they didn't else they would have had no recourse at all other than possible legal action. If that's the only option I would discussed with DVC legal but there's no reason to do so until the broker and/or seller has been given the direct opportunity to fix it. At the end of the day I suspect the answer is going to be that one can try to undo the deal or to accept it as is unless the broker/seller pony's up somewhat voluntarily. If the funds have been dispersed as I suspect, this isn't likely to end well as the only way to undo the deal then would be through legal action.

The other issue is that even if this is undone, this has the chance of clouding the title for a next buyer depending on how it's handled. For private sales they want to see a copy of the recorded deed. I was thinking they are more lenient when working with brokers/closing agents they know and usually transfer it once they are notified of the deed being sent for recording. Still, I didn't get that we were certain of the timeline on all of these issues and when the RCI transfer actually occurred.

 

[johnsgrl]

Legally in the state of Florida once the deed is recorded they are the owner, and Disney must record them as the owner of record if they received the documentation. It is the obligation of the attorney who handled the transfer to make such notification. Now if Disney had the notification sitting in a pile of items waiting to be processed that is their problem. If the Attorney was negligent in making the notification in a timely manner then he/she is on the hook. Either way, it is not the buyers issue.
There is nothing that says that Disney can sit on the notification and negate their responsibility to the new owner regardless of whether he bought direct or resale!

 

[kristenrice]

Am I reading correctly that the OP is trying to get the 300 banked points back? Or are they looking for monetary compensation for them?

I just want to point out a few things...if the OP was planning on renting the banked points which are now going to expire in 2 months (so I assume a Dec UY), then I would absolutely NOT want the points put back. I would want money. Those points are useless now and they were probably useless 2 months ago as well. I highly doubt that the OP would have been able to make a reservation that uses 300 points between August and November 30 with only a few weeks' notice.
That is such a high demand time that the likelihood of a successful rental of all 300 points would be minimal. I agree that there is something shady that went down here, but I would not press DVC to give me 300 points that expire November 30....they are almost completely useless. I would seek monetary compensation at this point.

 

[Marionnette]

Am I reading correctly that the OP is trying to get the 300 banked points back? Or are they looking for monetary compensation for them?

I just want to point out a few things...if the OP was planning on renting the banked points which are now going to expire in 2 months (so I assume a Dec UY), then I would absolutely NOT want the points put back. I would want money. Those points are useless now and they were probably useless 2 months ago as well. I highly doubt that the OP would have been able to make a reservation that uses 300 points between August and November 30 with only a few weeks' notice.
That is such a high demand time that the likelihood of a successful rental of all 300 points would be minimal. I agree that there is something shady that went down here, but I would not press DVC to give me 300 points that expire November 30....they are almost completely useless. I would seek monetary compensation at this point.

Points banked into a Dec. UY for 2016 would be available for use thru the rest of Dec. 2016 and most of 2017.

 

[kristenrice]

I asked for $10/point, since the points were close to expiry. Does this seem fair? It looks like last minute rentals on the rental page go for around that. The points are expiring very soon now due to all this delay, but had over 2 months left at closing.

This makes it sound like they were 2014 Dec UY banked into 2015... But I may be mistaken.

 

[Matty B13]

Legally in the state of Florida once the deed is recorded they are the owner, and Disney must record them as the owner of record if they received the documentation. It is the obligation of the attorney who handled the transfer to make such notification. Now if Disney had the notification sitting in a pile of items waiting to be processed that is their problem. If the Attorney was negligent in making the notification in a timely manner then he/she is on the hook. Either way, it is not the buyers issue.
There is nothing that says that Disney can sit on the notification and negate their responsibility to the new owner regardless of whether he bought direct or resale!

DVC is just the manager of the point system that represents the deeded property and maintains the property for the owners. They do not transfer ownership of the deed, the former owner is the only one who can transfer the deed to a new owner, DVC has no say in this! I can't believe they think they can hold up the transfer of the property, it has already happened and been recorded. This is the whole point of having a deeded interest in the resort that you bought at, because no matter what DVC does they can't take it away from the owner who has a deed.

 

[Matty B13]

I had this very discussion with the broker that we bought our first contract about what guaranteed that the points that were stated for sale would actually be in the account after the closing. He assured me that in his 13 years or so of reselling DVC that the estoppel process protects against this very thing, apparently it doesn't.......

 

[Noelle]

This is kind of scaring me...We are in the ROFR process for a resale now and we have a line in our contract that states: "IF THERE ARE LESS POINTS THAN WHAT IS STATED IN THIS CLAUSE AT TIME OF TRANSFER, THERE WILL BE AN $18 PER POINT COMPENSATION FROM SELLER TO BUYER OR BUYER MAY CANCEL THE CONTRACT. " Hopefully, that would protect us from some sort of similar situation.

 

[Matty B13]

This is kind of scaring me...We are in the ROFR process for a resale now and we have a line in our contract that states: "IF THERE ARE LESS POINTS THAN WHAT IS STATED IN THIS CLAUSE AT TIME OF TRANSFER, THERE WILL BE AN $18 PER POINT COMPENSATION FROM SELLER TO BUYER OR BUYER MAY CANCEL THE CONTRACT. " Hopefully, that would protect us from some sort of similar situation.

I wouldn't be too scared about this happening to you, this seems to be the case of a really deceitful person who knows the resale process and pulled a fast one on the new owner and DVC. We had no problems with our first contract and should be closing on our second next week. So far smooth sailing. Just like any real estate transaction you can run into a dishonest person. I'm just surprised that DVC isn't doing more for the new owner. I really think that they need to change the policy of not freezing the account after it has gone through the estoppel phase of the resale process. This would protect the purchasing party and DVC as well. If the sale didn't go through they would just unfreeze the account after getting notified by the broker or title company.

 

[rothesay]

If the deal has already been funded, even if the clause about compensation for missing point is there, wouldn't it be difficult to collect the compensation from the seller?

 

[supersnoop]

If the deal has already been funded, even if the clause about compensation for missing point is there, wouldn't it be difficult to collect the compensation from the seller?

I don't believe the title company releases the funds from escrow until Disney transfers the membership. So, the title company should still have the money. That's not the difficult part to unwind.