Seller used points AFTER estoppel

[Matty B13]

Haha! I like it!

This would avoid going through the whole title purchase again and satisfy all parties....... Well except the previous owner who tried to pull these shenanigans.

 

[andrea7884]

Just wondering? Did you go through one of the regular brokers of timeshares?

It was called Timeshare Broker Services. They sell timeshares, but do not specialize in Disney. I think there are some that do specialize in Disney, and it was not one of those if that's what you meant.

 

[Matty B13]

It was called Timeshare Broker Services. They sell timeshares, but do not specialize in Disney. I think there are some that do specialize in Disney, and it was not one of those if that's what you meant.

Yes that is what I meant, just wanted to know who to avoid if we buy resale again.

I'm so sorry you are having to deal with this, I hope your next Disney Vacation lets you forget all about this.

 

[andrea7884]

RCI nor II has ever cold called me about my points. I get letters monthly asking to bank or renew for longer but they have never called me in roughly 10 years.

I was told that someone at RCI called them and told them they should do this. They didn't know it was a bad idea because RCI told them it was a good idea. It sounded kind of weird to me but it's the most plausible explanation they have offered.

The agent also told me that the sellers don't even get value out of the points because RCI will close their account as soon as this goes through. Do you know if that's how it really works?

And I thought they could rent or transfer RCI points too.

 

[Dean]

Actually Florida laws on timeshare sales are the final remedy, corporate policies don't override laws. While a couple of weeks may seem reasonable to you, I haven't found anything in writing that gives them a pass on this one. According to OP, they had the deed sitting in a pile on someone's desk, and the conditions had been met and they had been properly notified. The problem occurred after everything had been done properly because they did not record it in a timely manner. I don't disagree that it was in the buyers interest to raise the red flag, however the refusal to talk to the new owner and claiming she somehow lost rights as a resale buyer is slimy. Ultimately, the fault is on the seller for accessing the points but Disney procedures allowed it to happen.

Real estate laws are not going to trump the other laws and rules applicable. Look at it like this, if they did one could simply bypass the ROFR by recording a deed. We'll have to disagree in the 2 weeks being reasonable. Now DVC/DVD can get with RCI and get the points back and they can allow them to be banked in this situation. Ultimately one could own it but still not be able to use it.

 

[Dean]

I was told that someone at RCI called them and told them they should do this. They didn't know it was a bad idea because RCI told them it was a good idea. It sounded kind of weird to me but it's the most plausible explanation they have offered.

The agent also told me that the sellers don't even get value out of the points because RCI will close their account as soon as this goes through. Do you know if that's how it really works?

And I thought they could rent or transfer RCI points too.

This doesn't sound reasonable. RCI can't deposit the DVC points, that'd have to be done through DVC. While they do cold calls all the time, this doesn't sound c/w how things work with DVC.

 

[ziravan]

Somebody already said it, but if funds haven't transferred, compensation cound be part of an amendment to allow the process to close, with the proceeds coming out of closing funds.

It seems DVC is amenable to this without going back to ROFR.

The only problem would be if such an arrangement cost the seller more than pay off, but that's not the OP's problem.

I will say if funding is contingent on DVC processing the membership, then DVC's hold on doing so has been a great service to the OP. It has provided leverage to the OP to ensure a positive outcome.

 

[Matty B13]

I though the funds had been transferred to the old owner, which is what normally happens at a property closing. The fact that the title company holds on to the funds until DVC notifies them of the transfer after closing is protecting the new owner. This definitely buts the new owner in the drivers seat with the addendum that the broker wants them to sign, I would be looking for compansation, my resale contract say $18 a point.

 

[CMNJ]

I thought generally the closing company holds the funds until the transfer is completed.
Magic vacation title's buyer documents clearly say funds aren't dispersed to seller until the transfer is recognized by the resort.

 

[LisaS]

I thought generally the closing company holds the funds until the transfer is completed.

I sold a contract early this year. The closing company (Timeshare Title and More) indicated that the check would be sent once DVC verified that any outstanding amounts due had been paid. I received the check for the proceeds of the sale about a week after closing. The contract was still in my DVC account for a full week after I deposited the check.

 

[supersnoop]

Lots of people seem to be confused about what an "estoppel" actually is. It's not a piece of paper. It's a process. It's the process of documenting the current state of an account and freezing it. Yes, the account is supposed to be frozen at that point. If the transfer falls apart, an estoppel release would be sent.

My realtor assured me that points were frozen at estoppel. I too asked what would happen in this case and was told it was a non issue because it was administratively impossible. It's become apparent that he doesn't really have a lot of knowledge and/or lies frequently.

Administratively, this shouldn't have happened. Disney is, in fact, supposed to freeze the account as part of the estoppel process.

I was told that someone at RCI called them and told them they should do this. They didn't know it was a bad idea because RCI told them it was a good idea. It sounded kind of weird to me but it's the most plausible explanation they have offered.

Nope, not plausible. RCI isn't going to call a DVC member and ask them to bank their points. RCI has no record of DVC points status.

 

[shaunacb]

Don't know much about this problem, so sorry that you are going through this! Aren't those RCI points now yours? If that is the case, then it sounds like it might be OK? If they were truly so close to expiring as another poster has questioned, then transferring them into RCI may have been the best course of action, as you may not have been able to rent them as DVC points prior to expiry? I would check if the points transferred into RCI belong to you or the seller.

 

[andrea7884]

Don't know much about this problem, so sorry that you are going through this! Aren't those RCI points now yours? If that is the case, then it sounds like it might be OK? If they were truly so close to expiring as another poster has questioned, then transferring them into RCI may have been the best course of action, as you may not have been able to rent them as DVC points prior to expiry? I would check if the points transferred into RCI belong to you or the seller.

The RCI points do not belong to me. I would have preferred to rent the points but I agree having the RCI points would be better than nothing.

 

[Matty B13]

The RCI points do not belong to me. I would have preferred to rent the points but I agree having the RCI points would be better than nothing.

I would hold out for the $10 a point which I think is low, but it is something. As long as you are holding on to the escrow funds you have your leverage. I really don't think this was an accident.

 

[Anal Annie]

I was told that someone at RCI called them and told them they should do this. They didn't know it was a bad idea because RCI told them it was a good idea. It sounded kind of weird to me but it's the most plausible explanation they have offered.

The agent also told me that the sellers don't even get value out of the points because RCI will close their account as soon as this goes through. Do you know if that's how it really works?

And I thought they could rent or transfer RCI points too.

This whole thing stinks to high heaven - so sorry for you. I personally think it sounds like they're feeding you a line of you-know-what to see if you'll bite on it. I would either try to back out on the contract altogether and would I would go to great lengths to publically shame the realtor or I would demand more than $10 / point from the sellers as compensation - not only for the point value but also for the time and anguish that you've had to go thru. Good luck getting anything sorted out. Definitely don't sign anything else until you receive adequate compensation.

 

[nolenbelledavis]

I would just undo the deal at this point. There are too many shady characters in the mix. It's disappointing and frustrating, but you can find another contract. I think I'd just get my money back and start again. Who knows how long all of this will take anyway. I'm sorry you're going through this, it's really awful!

If you decide to keep going forward with this, I'd send a written notice to the escrow company, return receipt requested, notifying them of the breach. So then you'll have proof that they were on notice if they end up releasing the funds.

 

[Matty B13]

I would just undo the deal at this point. There are too many shady characters in the mix. It's disappointing and frustrating, but you can find another contract. I think I'd just get my money back and start again. Who knows how long all of this will take anyway. I'm sorry you're going through this, it's really awful!

If you decide to keep going forward with this, I'd send a written notice to the escrow company, return receipt requested, notifying them of the breach. So then you'll have proof that they were on notice if they end up releasing the funds.

The problem is that the deed has already been recorded, so that will probably be a bigger problem. I'm sure the title company is going to at least demand their money, and want more to unwind this. I really think the broker needs to talk to the seller and have them cough up some compensation.

 

[Dean]

The problem is that the deed has already been recorded, so that will probably be a bigger problem. I'm sure the title company is going to at least demand their money, and want more to unwind this. I really think the broker needs to talk to the seller and have them cough up some compensation.

The actual cost of the title insurance after commissions should be small if they can figure out a way to separate that out and cancel the commissions. The recording fees are there for both the old and any new deed that may be generated. The title company may be stubborn as well demanding full payment. But those are all the problem of the system and seller for a cancelation if the broker and title company act appropriately. The problem is they may balk and not be cooperative or willing to do the full refund and it may require legal action to force them. Plus the time and delay involved in starting over has cost/value. Since DVD is willing to waive ROFR without going through the process, something they don't have to do, I'd proceed as long as they get a "fair value" for the banked points. They've asked for $10 a point which is probably a little high for banked points that are going to have a short half life anyway and didn't have due paid by the buyer.

 

[andrea7884]

The actual cost of the title insurance after commissions should be small if they can figure out a way to separate that out and cancel the commissions. The recording fees are there for both the old and any new deed that may be generated. The title company may be stubborn as well demanding full payment. But those are all the problem of the system and seller for a cancelation if the broker and title company act appropriately. The problem is they may balk and not be cooperative or willing to do the full refund and it may require legal action to force them. Plus the time and delay involved in starting over has cost/value. Since DVD is willing to waive ROFR without going through the process, something they don't have to do, I'd proceed as long as they get a "fair value" for the banked points. They've asked for $10 a point which is probably a little high for banked points that are going to have a short half life anyway and didn't have due paid by the buyer.

I think the costs might be substantial to cancel, but not born by us, which is the reason they are dragging their feet so much. Out contract specifies that if the seller breaks the contract, the seller will pay all closing costs incurred and that the agent will still be due commission as if the sale had been successful.

We did not pay dues on the points explicitly, but did factor them in to our decision to pay full asking price plus closing costs plus reimburse for 2016 fees. And I realize they are expiring shortly NOW, but this snafu has already wasted three weeks of time we could have rented them or booked our own vacation. I know that was still enough time to rent them at a discount. I saw two people on the rent/trade board got rid of points with the same expiration date in the last couple weeks for that price. Keep in mind hat when we closed, we had over two months left to use the points.

We did ask to cancel initially (didn't want anything to do with this and realtor initially promised reimbursement in 7-10 days) but then after waiting 10 days for our cancellation paperwork, the realtor started this negotiation. And also changed the reimbursement timeline to 3-4 months. Honestly, we are trying to negotiate because we just want out of the deal quickly so we can rid ourselves of the sketchy resale conpanies. But we aren't willing to take a loss for illegal behavior by the seller. It seems like a risk the longer we allow them to keep our money without getting access to the timeshare, so we reluctantly decided that sticking with this deal and negotiating a reimbursement was easiest.

Has anyone ever unwound a deal after closing or know what is involved? A family member who is an attorney told me that there is always a way to unwind a real estate transaction but that it will very complicated at this point to cancel the deal. The realtor seems desperate to avoid cancellation, but also desperate to avoid giving us a cash refund/compensation. (The original contract does give us the right to cancel.)

 

[Brian Noble]

I think if it were me, it would be worth spending an hour with a lawyer drafting a "We're done, refund our money and have the seller deal with the consequences as per the contract" letter.