Scared to death by the restrictions on resale pts thread

[zebsterama]

I'm sorry you saw the need to answer a post with sarcasm.

No need to be sorry, apology accepted.

See, now that's sarcasm. It’s quite an inventive tool that helps one express disapproval through the use of apparent approval. So when you said that you were ‘sorry’, I’m guessing that you too were being sarcastic; or perhaps maybe ironic? If so, I’m sorry you felt the need to tell me how sorry you were. See that, now were both sorry.

But you seem to think Disney has some sort of "obligation" to existing owners to support resale value and that is simply not true.

Legally no, you are correct. Morally I would actually argue yes ... you know it’s that whole “vacation ownership” thing that they like to wave in your face. Buying your own little bit of the magic for years to come. Like our friendly, smiley, DVD vacation club marking spin doctors tell us repeatedly, “Find out exactly what sets us apart as the premier vacation ownership program.”

DVD, the development and sales division, has a legal responsibility to the Walt Disney Company stockholders, not the owners, or resale purchasers.

You know what’s funny, I don’t remember them mentioning that interesting tidbit in the ‘Disney Vacation Secrets Revealed’ DVD they sent me. I must have missed it.

It has nothing to do with defending Disney, or thinking such restrictions would be a good idea, which I don't. On the other hand, it seems to work for other timeshare companies, and I'm sure Disney has the necessary data to back up any marketing decisions they may make.

OK, just work with me here for a second; picture this moment.
.....

Opening scene: The sun begins to rise over Mickey Mouse Clubhouse
....

From the distance Minnie Mouse appears, in classic red dress with white polka dot accent. Minnie looks confused, to the point of angst. She see's Mickey walking from the door of the club house and asks:
“Oh Mickey I need your help!
...

Mickey Mouse, also in his classic apparel, red shorts with white buttons, looks concerned as he replies:
"What is it Minnie? What's wrong?"
...

Minnie looks sad. She bats her eyes and says:
"How should we brand this year’s DVD marketing pitch Mickey?”
...


Thinking, the protagonist scratches his head for a moment,
“I don’t know Minnie. Let me think.”
...

Then the answer suddenly hits the protagonist. With a broad smile and look of excitement he looks towards the audience and says:
“How’s about something like: ‘Join DVD! Do What Works For Other Timeshare Companies!’ Did you hear that Minnie!? Did you!?”
...

Minnie Mouse watches Mickey with joy and glee as she holds her clenched hands gently together by the side of her face; her head is slightly tilted. She looks up into the bright sun and replies:
“Oh that sounds wonderful Mickey!”
She giggles.
“Just swell.”
...

Scene 2: The view pans back to the protagonist. He looks pleased with himself, as he nods his head with approval.
“Ah ha.”
...

The protagonist then looks to the audience; a bright smile is stretched across his face:
“Say it with me kids! Meeska, Mooska, Mickey Mouse!”
....

Play Music: Theme song - Mickey Mouse Club House ..... End scene
________________

I would like to end this insane post by simply stating the following,

“Discover how Membership works and how you benefit from becoming a Member.”

WHERE DO I SIGN??

Cheers,
Zebsterama


PS ... now that's sarcasm!

 

[zebsterama]

The problem is, the available evidence about how timeshare sales really work doesn't support your view.

Most people who buy timeshare do so having done almost no research before taking the tour. They are on vacation, having the time of their lives, and the sales tour gives them the opportunity to bottle that feeling, and keep it for years to come. The fact that there may be some impediments to resale just don't matter to them---they are not ever thinking of selling, they are thinking about how to bottle vacation magic.

What's more, those impediments are not even likely to come up during the tour, except in positive terms. ("If you buy direct, you get a free daily newspaper!") The one time they are guaranteed to come up: if the prospect asks why the resale price is so different, the sales staff will tell them all the reasons why buying from them is the only way to go.

These reasons don't even really need to be material---they just need to give the sense that you'd be missing out on something important if you don't buy direct. The psychology of a timeshare pitch is to convince the prospect to be an "owner", not just a lowly renter, so that you can recapture this feeling forever by pre-paying for it. So, implying that the secondary market is second class (even if, in reality, it isn't)---that it might not be as wonderful as this is---feeds into this psychology and helps tip a few more sales.

I will grant you that a rational, dispassionate customer would see through this and wonder what happens if they have to sell. But, the rational, dispassionate consumers are far outnumbered by those folks chasing pixie dust trails with a bottle in one hand, and a cork in the other! So, the theory is that losing a few rational customers is more than made up by closing even more of the "making vacation memories forever" prospects. That's particularly true because those rational customers tend to be less willing to buy in the first place---they are making a dollars-and-cents decision, not an emotional one.

Now, it's true that this is all speculation---I don't know for sure that the emotional buyers outnumber the dispassionate ones. But the evidence suggests that they do, because we know three things:

1. Nearly every other developer has found some form of resale differentiation to be valuable to their business. In particular, all of the largest ones have---and that includes name brands like Starwood, Marriott, etc. Now, they could be all wrong, and these differentiators could be hurting their business, rather than helping it, but that seems unlikely, doesn't it?
2. It is clear that other timeshare systems continue to sell at a healthy clip even though resale values are quite low---including those systems whose values drop by 90% by the time the rescission period ends, just a few days or weeks after pen hits paper.
3. It is also clear that having at least the veneer of a differentiation between developer purchases and those on the secondary market is a useful arrow in the sales quiver. On other timeshare-oriented boards, we see those who have done some research and know the differences in price getting bamboozled by smoke-and-mirror differences that, in dollars-and-cents terms, really don't matter.

This last one is particularly interesting---even people who could be classified as "careful shoppers" get wrapped up in the you would be missing out on important stuff narrative. So, if you add it all up, it seems to be more of a question of "when" and "what", not "if".

But, it is not all doom and gloom. For the most part, systems that have added differentiators after the fact have only nibbled around the edges, rather than created differences with real teeth. In general, this is because it is hard to make retroactive changes to the governing documents that only affect a subset of all ownerships. The ones that do have real teeth---the Marriott point system and the Diamond trust---were created with those resale restrictions in place from the very beginning. So, my completely uninformed guess is that whatever DVC comes up with in the way of differentiation, it too will be more bark than bite. That's okay for DVC, as we've seen that such differences are enough to sway people on the sales floor at other systems, and that's the only thing DVC really needs out of this. What's more, that's pretty good news for current owners, because the overall market tends to view these sorts of things for what they really are in dollars-and-cents terms. And, if that's "not much", then it won't harm resale values much vs. what we are already seeing with the growth of DVC: steadily increasing supply in the face of relatively static demand.


With all due respect, Sammie, I suspect that the only thing that has really changed is your perception of the system. I'd bet a mickeybar that they've only cared about future sales all along.

I appreciate your point of view Brian, well said.

I guess I'm a little bit saddened by the way Disney goes out of its way to portray itslef as pure, honest, family oriented - but in truth is only worried about its bottom line.

Not surprised, just saddened. I hoped for more; I think others did, and do too.

I question just how far they can push it.

It would be interesting to see if anything comes of this ... at least for me.

I guess we'll see.

 

[Dean]

Legally no, you are correct. Morally I would actually argue yes ... you know it’s that whole “vacation ownership” thing that they like to wave in your face. Buying your own little bit of the magic for years to come. Like our friendly, smiley, DVD vacation club marking spin doctors tell us repeatedly, “Find out exactly what sets us apart as the premier vacation ownership program.”



You know what’s funny, I don’t remember them mentioning that interesting tidbit in the ‘Disney Vacation Secrets Revealed’ DVD they sent me. I must have missed it.

All that's applicable is what the state laws say and what the POS says. What one assumed or what the guide said really means nothing. Again, a situation of one assuming certain issues that simply are not true. DVC is a timeshare, plain and simple, better than most but no where near perfect.

 

[Brian Noble]

I guess I'm a little bit saddened by the way Disney goes out of its way to portray itslef as pure, honest, family oriented - but in truth is only worried about its bottom line.

This is a common refrain from the Disneyana community---"I was blind but now I see". There really ought to be a name for it! But, this has *always* been the case. Disneyland was created primarily as a way to help sell the studio's movies, and the movies were a way to help generate interest in Disneyland. The original TV show was a vehicle to (a) get ABC to pay for a good chunk of Disneyland's construction and (b) provide free advertising for the Park *and* the movies. From the very beginning, Walt (yes, good ol' uncle Walt) worried about merchandising cross-promoted with the comic shorts. The early incarnation of the Mickey Mouse Club was basically a way to ensure that kids kept coming back to the theater---and brought their parents. The "Florida Project" film---the piece of PR that eventually got Florida to give Disney their very own private government---talked about a new way of thinking about cities and how we would live in them, even though Walt already knew at the time it was filmed that there would never be year-round "civilian" residents in WDW, because residents, inconveniently, vote.

 

[Dean]

Let me add that timeshares, by nature, will change over time. Some of those changes will be for the better but more often than not, they will be for the worse. Even the changes that most people see as positive will affect someone negatively and those changes that most see as negative will invariably be good for some group or the other. Over the past few years I've seen a number of people post the sentiment that DVC can add to but not take away from what was the case at the time that person bought in or were investigating. Not only is this is an unrealistic view, it's simply wrong. Also, there IS not moral obligation with timeshares beyond the legal/contractual obligations; to think so is simply fooling oneself.

 

[Sammie]

Dean, Brian, stop... stop, next you guys will be saying there is no Santa.


And I still believe.

 

[Dean]

Dean, Brian, stop... stop, next you guys will be saying there is no Santa.


And I still believe.

Drank the Kool-aid did you? Just keep your eyes open. A good rule of thumb for most things, that absolutely applies to timeshares, is to expect the worst and hope for the best.

 

[wcpamotm]

Well, I drank the kool-aid. And I believe that all businesses (not just Disney or timeshares) have moral and ethical obligations.

But I'll agree that most businesses feel that their only real obligations are the legal / contractual ones. And there are lawyers to help them pick those apart when possible.

"Business is like a tennis game: love means nothing."

 

[littlestar]

There could be an upside to this if they make drastic changes - I might be able to pick up some more resale SSR points for a fantastic unbelievable bargain.

 

[lmb]

I'm new to this thread and I tried to skip through all the pages to get the big points that are a possibility. Can someone recap for me? Is it just the RCI trade issue that might be restricted? We're thinking of buying a resale in the next couple of weeks and I"m not sure whether we should go this route or DVC.

 

[DebbieB]

I'm new to this thread and I tried to skip through all the pages to get the big points that are a possibility. Can someone recap for me? Is it just the RCI trade issue that might be restricted? We're thinking of buying a resale in the next couple of weeks and I"m not sure whether we should go this route or DVC.

Alot more than that. Keep in mind these are just RUMORS. I personally think A and B are more likely than the rest. E would cause a huge explosion.

See this thread, post #10:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2600330

**** ALL ONLY RUMOURS _ DONT SHOOT THE MESSENGER *****

In no meaningful order.....

Effective January 1st, 2011 or sooner....Resale Contract/Owner changes:

This document was approved by Disney's President a couple of months ago and sent to the board for final approval. It has not yet been released to the mere worker bees.....

Possible changes:
A) $1,000.00 DVC 'membership' fee to register your account after closing.

B) Restrict Resale points to DVC use only, no RCI, DCL, ABD.

C) Resale points only good at Home Resort.

D) Resort points only good at 7 months, no home resort advantage!
Remember, read your POS, Disney can at anytime modify the terms of Home Resort Advantage, they have done this in the past with Holiday Lotteries!

E) Prior resales may *NOT* be grandfathered in.

 

[Chuck S]

D) Resort points only good at 7 months, no home resort advantage!
Remember, read your POS, Disney can at anytime modify the terms of Home Resort Advantage, they have done this in the past with Holiday Lotteries!

Yes, but that was for a special holiday lottery during peak times, as detailed in the POS. The POS also states that home resort advantage can not be less than 1 month (for example, it could change to 11/10 or 8/7). There is no actual provision for eliminating it entirely, year round, without going to the lottery system, and then it would pretty much need to be for ALL members, not direct vs resale. I also think that C, D and E are extremely unlikely to be implemented in any way. Item A, an increase in the title transfer fee is possible, maybe even likely, but I would think it would need to be announced before a resale goes to contract, not a surprise at the end, under normal state disclosure laws.

The restriction on trade options is also possible, but many owners only use their points at DVC resorts and have never traded out, so for many resale buyers, this may also be a non-issue. But for resale buyers that do trade, this would have a negative impact not only on them, but on the direct purchase owner that don't plan to trade, as it would even further increase competition for limited DVC bookings at the 11 month mark.

Until something is actually announced by DVC, I would regard this entire thing as a simple rumor only, and makes for an interesting board discussion.

 

[BWV Dreamin]

With regards to the proposed title transfer fee, I wouldn't expect any prior announcement . I don't recall any prior announcement when they instituted the $50 estoppel fee.

Yes, but that was for a special holiday lottery during peak times, as detailed in the POS. The POS also states that home resort advantage can not be less than 1 month (for example, it could change to 11/10 or 8/7). There is no actual provision for eliminating it entirely, year round, without going to the lottery system, and then it would pretty much need to be for ALL members, not direct vs resale. I also think that C, D and E are extremely unlikely to be implemented in any way. Item A, an increase in the title transfer fee is possible, maybe even likely, but I would think it would need to be announced before a resale goes to contract, not a surprise at the end, under normal state disclosure laws.

The restriction on trade options is also possible, but many owners only use their points at DVC resorts and have never traded out, so for many resale buyers, this may also be a non-issue. But for resale buyers that do trade, this would have a negative impact not only on them, but on the direct purchase owner that don't plan to trade, as it would even further increase competition for limited DVC bookings at the 11 month mark.

Until something is actually announced by DVC, I would regard this entire thing as a simple rumor only, and makes for an interesting board discussion.

 

[Dean]

Alot more than that. Keep in mind these are just RUMORS. I personally think A and B are more likely than the rest. E would cause a huge explosion.

See this thread, post #10:

http://www.disboards.com/showthread.php?t=2600330

The way I read the FL statutes, a $1000 transfer fee is not possible. Historically DVC had a $100 transfer fee, then it went to $200 for a short time. My understanding is they became aware of the restrictions in FL Statues limiting transfers to $100 and dropped the fee entirely essentially as a self punishment. B. is essentially a certainty if anything happens along these lines. The way I read the legal paperwork (POS), I don't think C & D are possible. I'd say E is very unlikely. It's likely that those who have bought resale previously would be grandfathered. It's also possible that there will be options that no current member will have unless they add on or pay an additional fee. Other possible changes would be restrictions on banked/borrowed points. Things like can't use banked points except 7 months out, pay dues to borrow points, reduce # of points that can be banked to say 50%. There are many other possibilities. However, one thing you can count on is that there will likely NOT be enough warning to help those buying but closing after the drop dead date. If I were buying now I'd write in appropriate protections into any contract. If I were a resale company or closing service, I'd bust my but to get any pending contracts completed and in Disney's hands prior to 1 Jan, 2011.

Well, I drank the kool-aid. And I believe that all businesses (not just Disney or timeshares) have moral and ethical obligations.

But I'll agree that most businesses feel that their only real obligations are the legal / contractual ones. And there are lawyers to help them pick those apart when possible.

"Business is like a tennis game: love means nothing."

You can believe what you want but that and $1.5 might get you a cup of coffee. Just remember that in general, timeshares make used car sales seem like church.

 

[Lil' Grumpy]

what i think is plausible, based on a rookie observations,
,

underneath the projections here, are some real fears.
most are unfounded and/or unnecessary. [ i think ]

i think changes are predictable, and are expected. however,
if one look @ the "big picture" & apply those feelings to
their situation, will result in only a "little" change , if any,
for members. [ both groups- disney purchases & resales. ],
& using dvc for it "intended purposes". the minuses will be toward
the expended version.




from all our experiences, the disney company takes its' image
as "something +" for all, & are prod to display a willingness to
"listen" & respond.
some are making jokes about their real perception, but i think
they are also hoping/expecting to be heard, whenever interacting.



i think their products are in~deeds , are valuable & worth
the costs. i am aggravated over their guide department
especially the lack of accountability. however, one thing
i considered before buying, that disney in general has
great motivation toward problem solving. even toward it's
non-special customers, like me.



"the owners vs. the renters",

i strongly suspect, renters/renting has jumped way beyond
their original expectations & @ a rate that is seriously cutting
into profits. i think those in the resales group may be missing
this objective for the possible changes, because, they are worry
about reducing "their" abilities to make bookings outside the
home resort. again, i think if the changes were to be done
with owners in mind [ all], then they will benefit.

i also think those buying resales with this plan, do not view
their dvc as the other owners. [ making money off renting,
regardless the damages they are doing] also increasing the
numbers of renters is also increasing the lack of respect toward
all the resorts. [ i bet damages are up, way up]

also there have been indicators, that several businesses
have invested as a group, and now renting professionally, the
points they brought on the resales market. [ it isn't hard to see
how companies would look @ this potential , & any disney
opportunity being a low risk for their investments.] all they need,
is several company men willing to placed their names on the resales
deeds. what are their risks- disney kicked them out?

just because disney has restrictions toward cast members
buyers does not mean (to me), those higher up are restricting
themselves? [ i like to see an audit from some i have talked
with]. though we received some support & corrective measures,
our questions were never answered.


yes!...i think resales are going to be limited, but no less then they
already are @ 7 mos., but doing so [ actions/changes], to
remove renters outside the best rooms. so, looking@ the big
picture, no significant changes in making revs. @ home resort,
& even better chances @ the 7 mos., - by redirecting the renters
behind the 7mos. , to rooms that are the "leftovers."

i am big on supporting the owners as a positive group & part of
the disney team for preserving & protecting the dvc properties.
it bothered me , reading how ssr owners are being over crowded
on their buses..that dues are paying for. though we purchased
blt, does not mean we don't think the other resorts are a lesser
property. my guess, all of them have unique qualities , making
the, each special. the fact that are disney makes them a major
draw.

 

[alldiz]

What announcement are you talking about? Disney has never said they are making any announcement about changes.

The way I read the FL statutes, a $1000 transfer fee is not possible. Historically DVC had a $100 transfer fee, then it went to $200 for a short time. My understanding is they became aware of the restrictions in FL Statues limiting transfers to $100 and dropped the fee entirely essentially as a self punishment. B. is essentially a certainty if anything happens along these lines. The way I read the legal paperwork (POS), I don't think C & D are possible. I'd say E is very unlikely. It's likely that those who have bought resale previously would be grandfathered. It's also possible that there will be options that no current member will have unless they add on or pay an additional fee. Other possible changes would be restrictions on banked/borrowed points. Things like can't use banked points except 7 months out, pay dues to borrow points, reduce # of points that can be banked to say 50%. There are many other possibilities. However, one thing you can count on is that there will likely NOT be enough warning to help those buying but closing after the drop dead date. If I were buying now I'd write in appropriate protections into any contract. If I were a resale company or closing service, I'd bust my but to get any pending contracts completed and in Disney's hands prior to 1 Jan, 2011.You can believe what you want but that and $1.5 might get you a cup of coffee. Just remember that in general, timeshares make used car sales seem like church.

Dean,
Is this a "rumor"...that Disney will make an announcement after Jan 1st.
Do you think it these resale contracts sold in the past and next month will be "grandfathered" in to any changes....

I have read a lot of the rumors on this board to be true....this one seems to have some teeth.

I want home resort advantage....how much dosent matter too much.
I want to want to be able to stay at ANY DVC.....to me THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF DVC.
I have never traded out but I think that is a very important option...which i plan on using one day.

Help.....I am thinking of adding on....and I don't know if I want to with all this "speculation"....We are not talking about coffee mugs and plates!!!! Which BTW Thanks DVC for giving mugs back....Which makes me think "they " will do the "right thing"....ahem...I know for the stockholders
Thanks
kerri

 

[lmb]

I was planning on adding on and after much deliberation I think we are going to buy HHI pts from Disney. It's 80 pp and no closing costs so it's like 74 pp and even if DVC doesn't make many restrictions in Jan who's to say they won't keep putting more restrictions on resales in the years to come. It's kind of sad because I'd love more points but.....

 

[alldiz]

I was planning on adding on and after much deliberation I think we are going to buy HHI pts from Disney. It's 80 pp and no closing costs so it's like 74 pp and even if DVC doesn't make many restrictions in Jan who's to say they won't keep putting more restrictions on resales in the years to come. It's kind of sad because I'd love more points but.....

just curious....do you plan on going to HHI often.....or do you want to use them at WDW.
Congrats on your add-on
Kerri

 

[Dean]

i also think those buying resales with this plan, do not view
their dvc as the other owners. [ making money off renting,
regardless the damages they are doing] also increasing the
numbers of renters is also increasing the lack of respect toward
all the resorts. [ i bet damages are up, way up]

As I replied before on this subject, there is no indication that renters do more damage, if anything, my experience is that they are more reverent and protective than are owners. In truth we are all only renters. I've discussed this issue with 3 Marriott VCI GM's. None had real data but all's sense was that it didn't make any difference based on the method they got there but that the group makeup did make a large difference (Family vs spring break crowd).

Dean,
Is this a "rumor"...that Disney will make an announcement after Jan 1st.
Do you think it these resale contracts sold in the past and next month will be "grandfathered" in to any changes....

I have read a lot of the rumors on this board to be true....this one seems to have some teeth.

I want home resort advantage....how much dosent matter too much.
I want to want to be able to stay at ANY DVC.....to me THAT IS THE WHOLE POINT OF DVC.
I have never traded out but I think that is a very important option...which i plan on using one day.

Help.....I am thinking of adding on....and I don't know if I want to with all this "speculation"....We are not talking about coffee mugs and plates!!!! Which BTW Thanks DVC for giving mugs back....Which makes me think "they " will do the "right thing"....ahem...I know for the stockholders
Thanks
kerri

It does seem to have legs but we'll see. Some of the rumors from good sources have included the date of 1 Jan but no way to tell for sure. It is my expectation that IF current retail owners are grandfathered, that past resale buyers will be also. However, realize that Marriott did not do so with their big change this past summer. They GF no one but they did differentiate the fee as higher for those who had ANY resale contracts they wanted to move over to the new system. As I noted, I would be hesitant to buy in now resale, esp if I considered exchange options important. Why not wait until mid Jan or after. That way if there are changes, you'll know what they are. It's also very possible that prices will go down significantly if such changes take place and therefore one might be able to get say SSR at $40 a point in a couple of months. I can't imagine a situation where future resale buyers won't have the same DVC options as the rest of the current owners.

 

[lmb]

we want them for HH and go every year. I need the 11mo window and want to book before the 7 month window opens up for next Aug.