Saying grace...

[SwedishMeatball]

I thought I'd ask this since the holiday season is upon us and a lot of people tend to get religious for their two or three times a year.

I'm not a religious person... at all. When we are at dinner at other peoples' houses or functions and they choose to say grace I usually take the opportunity to politely excuse myself and go wash my hands or something while they get grace out of the way. I just don't do it, but that's me. When dinner is at my house, I prefer that grace not be said and some people respect that. They can always pause for the thought for themselves without making a big deal about it.

However, there is always someone who insists of doing a formal grace, even if it's not their home and they are offended when I object to it in my home. My attitude is that if they must pray, they should take it outside... all the way home if they want.

I was wondering how others in my situation handle this. I expect to be dealing with it Thursday. Oh, and I'm not the kind of guy to keep my mouth shut when something bothers me.

For those of you who know I play in a church band and are confused, that's strictly business for me. They accept that I don't join hands and pray with them, as they do every time we rehearse or play.

I'm not sure why it bothers you so much. If you want them to respect what you practice in your home by not saying grace, then why should it be a production for you to respect what they practice in their home??

 

[Cool-Beans]

We say grace. It is usually short and sweet, but we say it.

In other people's homes, I'm fine with them saying grace in whatever way they choose, for whatever religion they are. "When in Rome"... 'Course, I like hearing different things from different religions.

If they choose not to say grace, I silently say my own...nobody would even know I'd done it. I don't think it would be very nice to make a big show of the fact that I'm saying grace, nor would it be nice to try to force others to say it with me.

I don't think it is necessary to make a big show of the fact that you don't say grace by getting up and leaving the table. Just as religious folks can sit and silently do their own thing, so can the non-religious.

That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[helenabear]

The problem -- for me, at least -- is that if everyone else is saying prayers and I just sit there silently with them (thinking about how good the food looks or whatever) then I will appear to be tacitly in agreement with the whole idea of prayer. In fact, many people at the table might just assume I'm praying right along with them. Now .... this disturbs me more than a little bit. Not that they are praying -- I don't care about that. But that I could be construed as praying. Also, I just plain feel uncomfortable when its going on. I don't understand it, I don't agree with it, and I don't want to participate in it, either willingly or tacitly. I'm sure some of you who pray at meals might feel similarly if you were eating with a family who believed something radically different than you and , say, had you sit down on the floor, point toward the direction of mecca, and bow your head to the floor before eating. That would make you uncomfortable, right?

I'm not trying to flame you, so please understand this isn't me trying to be rude...

but I think you are thinking WAY too much. For starters, I know my SIL does not believe in God. She sits there politely when we say grace and does not put her hands in "prayer form" doesn't bow her head and doesn't do anything other than sit quietly for a moment. I do not for a second believe she is praying.

In all honesty, I don't give a snit what people do. If I am praying I don't look to see who is and who isn't. I personally don't care at all. That is NOT the point of prayer, so who cares?

I hope that makes sense. So your argument there doesn't hold water with me. A truly sincere person wouldn't even be paying attention to you, nor would they care if you are praying or not. Not an issue at all, so don't worry about that.

And yes, if I were in a home that would point me to Mecca to pray, I would do it w/o hesitation or any issues at all. Not hypocritcal for me to do either since I believe in the same God as them, sot hat would not be an issue.

If it were a totally different religion, I would just sit quietly and not do the actions they do. I wouldn't make a scene of anything. I wouldn't do the actions of the prayer if I did not believe in the higher power they were worshiping. I can sit quietly and be respectful of their time.

that is all I suggest people do. You don't pray, fine, don't pray. Sit there, don't put your hands in the "prayer form" and don't bow your head. Just sit quietly and observe. If that makes you uncomfortable, then I am sorry... seems a bit intolerant to me. I have been in sutuations where I don't believe what others do, and I can quietly sit there and watch as they go through motions of something I do not believe in. It's called respect.

 

[auntpolly]

It always shocks me that Christians, of all people (*the* dominant cultural/political group in the US) are so often crying "discrimination" and "bigotry".

Sorry, but you are a bigot. You are intolerant of the practices of other.

You can do as you please, but you have to accept the lable.

You like to think of yourself as the one who lables other people "bigots", but an openminded person accepts people for who they are and appreciates their differences.

You think that because you are an atheist you are not sectarian, but you are the very definition of it. Yes, there are Christians that are bigoted too, but don't think you are better than they are.

Just be honest about who you are.

 

[smartestnumber5]

You know what really confuses me? People can be so fascinated with other cultures. If it were a native American blessing or or something Budhhist or Hindu -- people would be all, "How marvelous to experience this", and probably brag about it to their friends.

Me, I figure any blessing from any spiritual person is a gift, no matter what the religion is.

But if it's Christian, people have to leave the room. It just amazes me that people who think they are so opened minded are so hostile. opnionionated and bigoted.

Actually, I'm not sure that anyone in this thread every specified that it is specifically Christians whose saying grace they object to. The OP certainly didn't mention that. So why do you assume that this is a Christian thing?

In fact, I do suspect there might be a difference if I were to go to dinner at friend's house of a non-majority religion. That family would likely assume that I did not believe in their religion, and they might choose to explain their blessing to me and even ask me if I wanted to participate in it. I think in doing this they would be making clear that they understood that these are not my beliefs--that I am an outsider--hence I wouldn't be made to feel like sitting there observing was tacitly taking part in their blessing. And in that situation, I'd likely decide to simply look on with interest since I would likely know nothing of that religious tradition. But if that family just suddenly expected me to hold their hands and hence participate in a blessing invoking the higher beings they happen to believe in of course I would be equally uncomfortable as if they were Christians doing that to me. (It happens that in the past it has been Christians who have known of my atheism who have done it.)

As for whether a blessing is a gift, I certainly understand that some people have good intentions in offering a prayer or blessing for other people who don't believe in such prayers/blessings. But sometimes this thing can be used as a weapon. My grandfather tells me "I'll pray for you" not on a normal basis, but only when I'm forced to remind him of my atheism because he is bugging me about religion. This is really a way for him to insist that he is right and I am wrong.

Even when there isn't this type of using prayer as a weapon thing happening--I know this is a different thing than the usual case of saying grace!--it's hard to take it as a gift. I certainly try to take it as a gift when someone who doesn't know of my beliefs offers a very general kind of blessing. But it's a lot harder when the person doing the praying knows of my beliefs. I mean, from the opposite perspective, atheists can conceive of it as a gift when we explain that there are very good arguments which show that there is no God. Those of us who once were religious often feel that our lives have improved since we stopped believing. Thus, I think it's quite possible for an atheist to feel that they are doing something good for a religious person when they try to show them that there is no God. Should religious folks take it as a gift when atheists offer arguments about God's non-existence?

I generally take it that we need to balance doing things which might be helpful to others and doing things which might show disrespect for their beliefs.

 

[themarquis]

I'm not trying to flame you, so please understand this isn't me trying to be rude...

but I think you are thinking WAY too much. For starters, I know my SIL does not believe in God. She sits there politely when we say grace and does not put her hands in "prayer form" doesn't bow her head and doesn't do anything other than sit quietly for a moment. I do not for a second believe she is praying.

In all honesty, I don't give a snit what people do. If I am praying I don't look to see who is and who isn't. I personally don't care at all. That is NOT the point of prayer, so who cares?

I hope that makes sense. So your argument there doesn't hold water with me. A truly sincere person wouldn't even be paying attention to you, nor would they care if you are praying or not. Not an issue at all, so don't worry about that.

And yes, if I were in a home that would point me to Mecca to pray, I would do it w/o hesitation or any issues at all. Not hypocritcal for me to do either since I believe in the same God as them, sot hat would not be an issue.

If it were a totally different religion, I would just sit quietly and not do the actions they do. I wouldn't make a scene of anything. I wouldn't do the actions of the prayer if I did not believe in the higher power they were worshiping. I can sit quietly and be respectful of their time.

that is all I suggest people do. You don't pray, fine, don't pray. Sit there, don't put your hands in the "prayer form" and don't bow your head. Just sit quietly and observe. If that makes you uncomfortable, then I am sorry... seems a bit intolerant to me. I have been in sutuations where I don't believe what others do, and I can quietly sit there and watch as they go through motions of something I do not believe in. It's called respect.

I did say that I'm pretty much fine with sitting quietly while others pray. I wish there was something else to do, but there isn't and/or doing something else would be rude, so I just sit there.

But maybe I should have rephrased something -- I think you interpreted what I said as being concerned about what others think of me while they pray. I'm not, but I can see why what I wrote would seem to imply that -- maybe I wasn't doing a great job explaining what I was trying to convey.

To be honest, the thing I'm most concerned about is my adherence to my own belief system. My belief system is as complex and rich as any religious persons' -- it involves the absence of faith in a divine being and the belief in science and rationality as a means to make sense of the universe and events that occur in this universe. And so on and so forth. The point is that doing certain things, like participating (even passively) in a prayer session, attending church (even if it were to keep a friend company or for some other reason) and saying the pledge of allegience (with "one nation, under god") go against my belief system and therefore make me uncomfortable. ITs not going to kill me to do these things, but I would prefer to make sure that I don't have to do them. (and for the record, I think it is absolutely vital for me and everyone to *think* about these sorts of issues and not to just be oblivious to them -- there is no such thing as "thinking too much"!) I feel that if I get into situations where I have to do these things, say, for the sake of politeness, that I will not be being true to myself and my beliefs. I'm sure you can understand that, as a person who is religious probably tries to avoid these kinds of situations (well, different kinds of situations than I was describing), as well.

I think most of my points, however, were directed toward a situation in which others might want to pray (out loud) in my house -- in which case, I really do think it is acceptable for me to say that isn't okay with me or to politely start serving food in order to not leave time for others to do a prayer.

 

[auntpolly]

In fact, I do suspect there might be a difference if I were to go to dinner at friend's house of a non-majority religion. That family would likely assume that I did not believe in their religion, and they might choose to explain their blessing to me and even ask me if I wanted to participate in it. I think in doing this they would be making clear that they understood that these are not my beliefs--that I am an outsider--hence I wouldn't be made to feel like sitting there observing was tacitly taking part in their blessing. And in that situation, I'd likely decide to simply look on with interest since I would likely know nothing of that religious tradition. But if that family just suddenly expected me to hold their hands and hence participate in a blessing invoking the higher beings they happen to believe in of course I would be equally uncomfortable as if they were Christians doing that to me. (It happens that in the past it has been Christians who have known of my atheism who have done it.)


As for whether a blessing is a gift, I certainly understand that some people have good intentions in offering a prayer or blessing for other people who don't believe in such prayers/blessings. But sometimes this thing can be used as a weapon. My grandfather tells me "I'll pray for you" not on a normal basis, but only when I'm forced to remind him of my atheism because he is bugging me about religion. This is really a way for him to insist that he is right and I am wrong.

Even when there isn't this type of using prayer as a weapon thing happening--I know this is a different thing than the usual case of saying grace!--it's hard to take it as a gift. I certainly try to take it as a gift when someone who doesn't know of my beliefs offers a very general kind of blessing. But it's a lot harder when the person doing the praying knows of my beliefs. I mean, from the opposite perspective, atheists can conceive of it as a gift when we explain that there are very good arguments which show that there is no God. Those of us who once were religious often feel that our lives have improved since we stopped believing. Thus, I think it's quite possible for an atheist to feel that they are doing something good for a religious person when they try to show them that there is no God. Should religious folks take it as a gift when atheists offer arguments about God's non-existence?

I generally take it that we need to balance doing things which might be helpful to others and doing things which might show disrespect for their beliefs.

I guess you can choose to feel threatened by a few sentences if you like. I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance - I don't say it at sporting events. But I don't go all nuts and assume people are trying to insult me.

If you see this kind of a thing as a weapon or a threat, I think that there may be some unresolved problems that have nothing to do with your host's dinner table.

 

[themarquis]

Sorry, but you are a bigot. You are intolerant of the practices of other.

You can do as you please, but you have to accept the lable.

You like to think of yourself as the one who lables other people "bigots", but an openminded person accepts people for who they are and appreciates their differences.

You think that because you are an atheist you are not sectarian, but you are the very definition of it. Yes, there are Christians that are bigoted too, but don't think you are better than they are.

Just be honest about who you are.

I think everyone was trying to be at least somewhat civil here before you posted. Suddenly, for trying to be true to my own beliefs, I'm a bigot. For trying to be true to her own belifs, smartestnumberfive is apparently clinically insane.

Yet I've never said anything to indicate that I don't think others should practice or be true to or have a right to *their* beliefs, nor have I said that these beliefs are not valid or acceptable. I'm curious as to what exactly makes me a bigot. Please explain.

 

[auntpolly]

I think everyone was trying to be at least somewhat civil here before you posted. Suddenly, for trying to be true to my own beliefs, I'm a bigot. Yet I've never said anything to indicate that I don't think others should practice or be true to or have a right to *their* beliefs, nor have I said that these beliefs are not valid or acceptable. I'm curious as to what exactly makes me a bigot. Please explain.

I didn't say this to be hurtful, but it's the truth.

 

[themarquis]

I didn't say this to be hurtful, but it's the truth.

are you planning to explain? I'm still waiting. I'm not hurt, but I am deeply, deeply puzzled

 

[SwedishMeatball]

Where the heck is George??

 

[auntpolly]

are you planning to explain? I'm still waiting. I'm not hurt, but I am deeply, deeply puzzled

OK, if you aren't sectarian about this, bigoted toward your own POV, then there should be no problem whatsoever with other people praying - ever.

Just like me at a sporting event. I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance, but other people do, so I just stand there - no problem. It's a non-issue.

 

[smartestnumber5]

I guess you can choose to feel threatened by a few sentences if you like. I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance - I don't say it at sporting events. But I don't go all nuts and assume people are trying to insult me.

If you see this kind of a thing as a weapon or a threat, I think that there may be some unresolved problems that have nothing to do with your host's dinner table.

Umm, I thought I made clear that the "weapon" is when my grandfather somewhat sarcastically says "I'll pray for you" after he bugs me about church when knows I've been an atheist for 8 years. Yes I do think that is a weapon. It's kind of like if I replied "pray all you want--no one is listening." I would never say that in response, because I think it would be disrespectful. Yes I do think it disrespectful to bug someone about their lack of religion, force them to say once again that they are an atheist, and then indicate sarcastically that they need praying for. Do you approve of such behavior? It's not a matter of feeling threatened--it's a matter of feeling completely disregarded and disrespected.

Of course I don't think the dinner table is anything like that. But if you think that blessings should be interpreted as a gift then you must agree that when atheists offer reasons not to believe in God that too should be interpreted as a gift--right?

 

[auntpolly]

Of course I don't think the dinner table is anything like that. But if you think that blessings should be interpreted as a gift then you must agree that when atheists offer reasons not to believe in God that too should be interpreted as a gift--right?

I have friends that are atheists - I accept their right to believe whatever they want. I would be very hurt if they acted like what I believed was something weird or shameful or if they couldn't stand to be near me when I was practicing my religion. But they wouldn't do that. They ask me questions about my church. I know they aren't interested in converting, but they are curious.

 

[auntpolly]

I should say that I may be arguing with the wrong person, as the thing that really got me thinking was the OP.

You can't sit there while friends or family are saying a few words?

 

[salmoneous]

Matt 6:6 We have records of both Jesus and the apostles offering prayers in the presence of others. Prayer may be offered anywhere when it is meant as a communication between the one(s) praying and God and not for the "show" spoken of in the previous verse.

As with you, must my opinion here... but it always amuses me how when Jesus says something people want to hear, they take his words at face value. But when he says something they don't want to hear, the go looking for reasons that Jesus didn't mean what he said.

And, to be honest, I think this a good thing. People need to find the message that Jesus has for them, which might be different from the message that Jesus has for someone else.

I just hope people will be accepting of others who find different message to take literally.

Personally, I find Jesus' words here to be pretty darn clear. I think there is something really odd about public recitation of the Lord's Prayer (for the non-Christians, the Lord's Prayer is a model Prayer Jesus gives to Christians when he tells warns them about praying in public and encourages them to pray in private. It follows the verses I quoted)

EDIT - To be clear, I don't mean to criticizing any public prayer, including recitation of the Lord's Prayer. I just find it quirky.

 

[themarquis]

OK, if you aren't sectarian about this, bigoted toward your own POV, then there should be no problem whatsoever with other people praying - ever.

Just like me at a sporting event. I don't like the Pledge of Allegiance, but other people do, so I just stand there - no problem. It's a non-issue.

I have repeatedly stated that I am absolutely, completely, positively fine with other people praying. However, I would rather not be involved in their prayer sessions or be forced to tacitly, silently, participate. I cannot unfortunately avoid such a situation, which is why I've also repeatedly stated that I have accepted this fact of life. (it would be nice to stop having to repeat myself )

However, when a poster comes on and says essentially -- "hey, I have beliefs similar to you" (George), I'd like to have the right to reply and say, "me too! lets talk about it". I'd also like to have the right to disagree with others when they say something that indicates their beliefs are substatially different than mine.

We live in a heterogeneous society in which people hold very diverse beliefs. I consider it a strength of our society that we can participate in productive discourse about our beliefs, such as on this message board. That we can disagree, that we can fight, and that we can learn from one another.

If you want to turn me into a bigot for having a different belief system than you and for having the desire to speak up for myself and my different beliefs, then you are effectively shutting down all means of communication. On the other hand, if you want to talk, to tell me about how your beliefs and views differ from mine, you are welcome to do so and I will listen.

 

[GeorgeG]

Wow! That was a lot of responses and I do appreciate all of them. I read each and every one and gave all of the input careful consideration. I think I got what I was looking for... and quite a bit more. I was actually looking for alternatives and, admittedly, some agreement to my point of view and I got both.

Let me clarify some points.

I don't consider myself a rude person, unless being honest equates to being rude, and I suppose there's often a fine line there. As a guest in someone else's home who did not know me well, I would, as suggested, just sit quietly while they do their thing, but not pretend I was participating. If they choose to join hands I would find some way enable the people on either side of me to join hands while, as discretely as possible backing up enough to allow them to do so. I try to feel out these situations ahead of time so it's not so awkward. If the host has a real problem with me being a heathen I will leave if that makes them more comfortable. I don't want to be where I'm not welcome.

I have had some problems in the past with a few friends and family members who know exactly how I feel and throw it in my face (now that's rude) and that is when I excuse myself in order to not be the focal point of their little show. To be honest, I didn't want to be there in the first place, but my wife would make the commitments... And, there have been a few who do go on and on and on as if they were giving a Sunday morning sermon.

In my own home, everyone invited knows how I feel and I think it's just plain arrogant for them to shove their little show in my face. I have no problem with them doing a silent prayer to themselves as long as they keep it to themselves. In fact, if I'm to believe there is a God and God knows all, I would have to say our private thoughts are the purest form of prayer.

For those who know me, they accept the fact that I give them the opportunity to do their thing while I go wash up. I don't expect them to eat al their peas if they don't like peas and I don't make an issue of it.

I'm reminded of a sermon at the church I play for where the pastor told everyone that when they finally get to heaven they will be surpised at who they see there... and who they don't. It's who you are on the inside that matters, not who you pretent to be.

Anyhow, I thank all of you for taking the time to offer your thoughts and suggestions. I'm not sure I have any real solutions for my problem, but I still have five days to think it over. Maybe I'll just ask that they do their thing privately and we can all enjoy a stress-free dinner.

Well, thanks again. I should get to bed since I have to be up early to play lead guitar at church. Go figure... but, it's strictly business you know...

 

[SwedishMeatball]

Ok, but can we agree that it seems hypocritical of George to want people to respect his wish to not have prayer in his home, but then shouldn't he show the same consideration when in other people's home by repecting what they do?? If not, then the people that enter his home that would be "offended" by not being invited to pray, should just do it any way to make their beliefs known.

 

[auntpolly]

If you want to turn me into a bigot for having a different belief system than you and for having the desire to speak up for myself and my different beliefs, then you are effectively shutting down all means of communication. On the other hand, if you want to talk, to tell me about how your beliefs and views differ from mine, you are welcome to do so and I will listen.

I apologize if I've mixed you up with someone else. If you are in my home and we are saying grace and you don't run to the bathroom to avoid it -- you don't have to like it or even listen (be like Homer Simpson and think about Chocolate Town instead if you like) but you can respect us because that's what we do and you respect the practices of people different than yourself, then we have no problem. Sorry if I misunderstood you.

If you think I haven't been to dinner with atheists talking about what they believe, you're wrong. I love talking to people about what they believe - it never makes me uncomfortable -- all I want is the same consideration.