Sandusky - trial

[wvjules]

This concerns me:

Bellefonte, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- The jury considering the fate of Jerry Sandusky on Friday pored over transcripts of testimony in the high-profile child rape case as the second day of deliberations got under way.

The statements of prosecution witness Mike McQueary, who testified that he saw Sandusky apparently sodomizing a boy, and defense witness Dr. Jonathan Dranov, who said McQueary's initial account differs from what he said on the stand, were read back to jurors.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/22/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Jury is heading back into the courtroom (no verdict) to clarify a "supplemental jury instruction".

HLN guest (?) speculating we might see a verdict today. (Or not? )

 

[cabanafrau]

This concerns me:


http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/22/justice/pennsylvania-sandusky-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

I had seen reports that the testimony differed in some ways, agreed in others also. In my experience this happens often with witnesses who give very credible testimony. I've also found it to be true that when testimony absolutely agrees between witnesses it tends to come from witnesses who have a stake in the outcome, don't testify with credibility and really smells like a cooked up story or coaching.

Especially in light of the Casey Anthony case I do agree that I'm not going to feel at ease about this until guilty verdicts are returned.

 

[cabanafrau]

Jury is heading back into the courtroom (no verdict) to clarify a "supplemental jury instruction".

HLN guest (?) speculating we might see a verdict today. (Or not? )

I am astounded that this case made it to trial this quickly, not to mention the jury already has the case. I've worked many of these cases locally, some w/ only one victim and plenty w/ zero media attention that have dragged out well over a year before trial, then 3 weeks of trial.

I would imagine the jury instructions and verdict form on this case must be an absolute maze.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

I am astounded that this case made it to trial this quickly, not to mention the jury already has the case. I've worked many of these cases locally, some w/ only one victim and plenty w/ zero media attention that have dragged out well over a year before trial, then 3 weeks of trial.

I would imagine the jury instructions and verdict form on this case must be an absolute maze.

Yeah, this case has gone by quickly. I can't imagine reviewing jury instructions and trying to reach a verdict on 48 counts.

Per HLN: The question by the jury to the judge concerned circumstantial evidence and excited utterance. Deals with victim #8's account given by the janitor (who now has dementia?), who says he saw victim #8 being molested by JS in the shower. So what HLN is gleaning from this is that the two cases where the jury has questions are the two cases where the victims did not testify.

Hopefully, that means they've reached verdicts on the charges where the victims DID testify and that the verdicts are guilty.

 

[cornflake]

I am astounded that this case made it to trial this quickly, not to mention the jury already has the case. I've worked many of these cases locally, some w/ only one victim and plenty w/ zero media attention that have dragged out well over a year before trial, then 3 weeks of trial.

I would imagine the jury instructions and verdict form on this case must be an absolute maze.

Why? There are a lot of charges but only because they're repeated per victim. Presumably if they understand the whatever, four or five statutes at hand, there shouldn't be a problem. The jury instruction does make one wonder, given how clearly the Anthony jury did not understand their jury instructions.

 

[I Love Pluto]

We live in the Phila area. No one can believe that it all got this far without punishment many years ago. It is horrifying to believe that these things happen and remain unreported and unpunished.

A trial is ridiculous at this point. We all KNOW what happened. Let's just skip to the punishment. I hope the punishment fits the crime. Young children should NEVER have had to endure the horror that these children did.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Lawyers back in chambers.

 

[cabanafrau]

Why? There are a lot of charges but only because they're repeated per victim. Presumably if they understand the whatever, four or five statutes at hand, there shouldn't be a problem. The jury instruction does make one wonder, given how clearly the Anthony jury did not understand their jury instructions.

Jury instructions are excruciatingly detailed and often cause of some of the biggest clashes between attorneys in an entire case. Some instructions are given no matter if the case is civil or criminal, i.e. things like it being the responsibility of the jury to evaluate the credibility of witnesses. Some instructions are specifically regarding the case at hand and the wording may be hotly contested. Many instructions are specifically to define words. Believe it or not all first degree murder cases don't have all the same jury instructions. Experienced lawyers know they can stack the deck in their favor w/ some hard fought and well-won battles on the jury instructions and verdict forms.

As far as multiple counts of the same charge, it's not simply a matter of four or five statutes at hand. Each crime is made up of elements and each element of each crime is parsed out on the verdict form & must be answered by the jury. It's not just deliberating, asking for a vote of guilty or not guilty on each charge, they must find guilt on each element of each and every charge. It's likely there are some subtle differences in the charges related to some of the victims as well, even though they may fall under the same statute.

I have never worked a case where I've dealt with so many charges for one defendant and I can tell you I never want to. It's hard enough where you have multiple co-defendants w/ identical or very nearly identical charges. The process this jury must follow in a case of this magnitude is incredible.

 

[cornflake]

Jury instructions are excruciatingly detailed and often cause of some of the biggest clashes between attorneys in an entire case. Some instructions are given no matter if the case is civil or criminal, i.e. things like it being the responsibility of the jury to evaluate the credibility of witnesses. Some instructions are specifically regarding the case at hand and the wording may be hotly contested. Many instructions are specifically to define words. Believe it or not all first degree murder cases don't have all the same jury instructions. Experienced lawyers know they can stack the deck in their favor w/ some hard fought and well-won battles on the jury instructions and verdict forms.

As far as multiple counts of the same charge, it's not simply a matter of four or five statutes at hand. Each crime is made up of elements and each element of each crime is parsed out on the verdict form & must be answered by the jury. It's not just deliberating, asking for a vote of guilty or not guilty on each charge, they must find guilt on each element of each and every charge. It's likely there are some subtle differences in the charges related to some of the victims as well, even though they may fall under the same statute.

I have never worked a case where I've dealt with so many charges for one defendant and I can tell you I never want to. It's hard enough where you have multiple co-defendants w/ identical or very nearly identical charges. The process this jury must follow in a case of this magnitude is incredible.

I know what they are. I mean they are basically identical charges relating to different accusers (though no, every person doesn't have the same charges attached), thus once they have a handle on the components of the statutes involved, one would think they could simply deal with the accusers and not need to go back over the charge they went over last time as... same charge, hence I don't see why anything would be particularly maze-like. No matter really, I just didn't understand what you meant.

A trial is ridiculous at this point. We all KNOW what happened. Let's just skip to the punishment

It's never ridiculous.

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Jury instructions are excruciatingly detailed and often cause of some of the biggest clashes between attorneys in an entire case. Some instructions are given no matter if the case is civil or criminal, i.e. things like it being the responsibility of the jury to evaluate the credibility of witnesses. Some instructions are specifically regarding the case at hand and the wording may be hotly contested. Many instructions are specifically to define words. Believe it or not all first degree murder cases don't have all the same jury instructions. Experienced lawyers know they can stack the deck in their favor w/ some hard fought and well-won battles on the jury instructions and verdict forms.

As far as multiple counts of the same charge, it's not simply a matter of four or five statutes at hand. Each crime is made up of elements and each element of each crime is parsed out on the verdict form & must be answered by the jury. It's not just deliberating, asking for a vote of guilty or not guilty on each charge, they must find guilt on each element of each and every charge. It's likely there are some subtle differences in the charges related to some of the victims as well, even though they may fall under the same statute.

I have never worked a case where I've dealt with so many charges for one defendant and I can tell you I never want to. It's hard enough where you have multiple co-defendants w/ identical or very nearly identical charges. The process this jury must follow in a case of this magnitude is incredible.

Thank you for taking the time to answer the question cornflake asked. Very interesting, educated and enlightening perspective of trials, charges, jury instructions and deliberations.

 

[DebbieB]

I guess I've been living under a rock. I had no idea you could adopt an adult. That's just weird.

My dad was legally adopted as an adult. My grandmother remarried when he was young and he took the new husband's last name but nothing legal was done. When he was getting ready to marry my mom and also go into the army, he was 25 and had to be legally adopted by the second husband to keep the name. His natural dad had died before then so that wasn't an issue.

 

[cabanafrau]

I know what they are. I mean they are basically identical charges relating to different accusers (though no, every person doesn't have the same charges attached), thus once they have a handle on the components of the statutes involved, one would think they could simply deal with the accusers and not need to go back over the charge they went over last time as... same charge, hence I don't see why anything would be particularly maze-like. No matter really, I just didn't understand what you meant.



It's never ridiculous.

Until I started this job it never occurred to me that jury instructions and verdict forms were quite often handled like reinventing the wheel. There are books of criminal jury instructions and civil jury instructions. I assumed that when you're trying an axe murderer you flip to the chapter on first degree murder and it's cut and dried. I shouldn't have assumed.

You're right, the trial and the process of justice shouldn't be dismissed as ridiculous, even if we have a passionate certainty what the just outcome should be.

 

[Interested Bystander]

She has been in the courtroom each and every day. She complained to officials that the Sandusky home was not a good place for her son. She was ignored. Her name is Debra Long. If you google her name or something like 'Mother of Sandusky's Adopted Son Speaks Out', you will find yet another heartbreaking story of the "little person" not being heard.

 

[Missy1961]

Verdict is in according to multiple sources.

 

[gwynne]

Sara Ganim's twitter feed reported 3 minutes ago there is a verdict.

http://twitter.com/sganim

 

[ugadog99]

I have a sick feeling in my stomach. Please, please do not let this go the way of Casey Anthony!

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

I have a sick feeling in my stomach. Please, please do not let this go the way of Casey Anthony!

Me too. I will never feel the same about waiting for a verdict again.

They are going to lock the doors and will only open them after all is said and done and court is concluded. So no news can come out of there until the doors are re-opened.

 

[LisaR]

Me too. I will never feel the same about waiting for a verdict again.

They are going to lock the doors and will only open them after all is said and done and court is concluded. So no news can come out of there until the doors are re-opened.

They said it will take about an hour. I'm optimistic. I know, I know! But how can they not find this guy guilty? Roy Kronk didn't have anything to do with this one!

 

[MaryAnnDVC]

Roy Kronk didn't have anything to do with this one!

Are you absolutely sure?

Well, CNN commentators seem pretty confident they are primarily guilty verdicts.