S/O What is middle class?

[Jen and Ashwin]

Quite frankly I don't really care at this point to rehash 2 days worth of conversation.

But I think you may be talking about what @ellie05 had posted on a good portion of your post rather than about me. I never talked about travelling and things outside the U.S. and living in the now and status of happy and retirement. That was what @ellie05 was talking about in relation to their own experience and the only thing I had said was "Wow that's a very interesting outlook. One that I hadn't really even thought about. I'm sure it puts a lot into perspective for you and well if I'm to be honest for me as well."

Yes, you are right. I attributed that to the wrong person. It was @ellie05.

 

[ellie05]

My parents are well off. My dad makes more in a year that I probably will make in 5 years. They were able to pay 100% of college for 3 kids, as well as grad school for me in full. They really, really value education. My dad has 3 degrees, as do I. In my family, there wasn't a question about if we would go to college, but rather where. They stressed the great value of a public university education, both having gone to Ohio State. All 3 of their kids ended up at Big 10 schools, not super surprising. This was the most important thing to them and now that I am expecting my first child, I can totally understand why. As I said before, I realize how much of a life changing gift it has been for me and I know my siblings would completely agree.

But even with all the money they had, they had a very down to earth attitude about life. We always went to public school. We didn't get the flashy clothes that many other students wore (we shopped at Old Navy not Abercrombie). We didn't get the gadgets and toys other kids got. We got a small allowance in exchange for beyond basic chores (making ours beds didn't count, but mowing the lawn earned extra). We did get cars, but they weren't new or flashy like so many of my classmates. We got hand-me-down cars, but they were safe and well maintained.

The only thing that was pretty unique from my classmates was that we traveled a lot. My parents really valued being exposed to other peoples and experiences. We usually vacationed 3 times a year and there were plenty of trips to WDW over the years, but a lot of the places we went really changed how I viewed the world. We traveled all over the US. We didn't take beach trips like other families, we took trips to battle fields, national parks and places of historic significance. My dad is a huge history buff and vacations for the most part were an opportunity for learning. Education was my parents #1 concern for their children and they viewed travel as part of that education.

And we traveled overseas to Europe, Central and South America and the Middle East. I was exposed to other cultures, other religions and living conditions that I had never really seen in the US. Extreme poverty like nothing in the US (even in the deep south). I saw young children and the very elderly engaged in hard manual labor, they were not enjoying life with their kids in old age. And I saw wealth like I had never seen either, especially in the Middle East. People flaunting material possessions like jewelry, clothing and super cars in a way you would never see in the Mid-West. It was such an amazing learning experience for me. And I hope to provide similar experiences for my children (though probably not to the same level that my parents were able to afford).

I am not sure where you lived as a child that you saw people traveling and living for the now, but I would be interested to know more about their country's safety net system. Lots of countries provide much more generous benefits to their citizens, such as 4 weeks standard paid time off, extended paid maternity leave, universal health care, living wage old age benefits, etc. The US is unlike most other 1st world countries in that we don't have such things. That makes it harder for someone in the US to say, "yes, I am going to live for today and not worry about the percentage I am putting towards my retirement." At 33, when making my retirement decisions, I am fully banking on the idea that social security won't exist when I retire. I plan on relying just on myself for my needs in old age because I don't think the government will be giving much assistance.

That doesn't mean that I am not happy or living for now. I just prioritize those things that I want to spend my money on, which for us is travel. DH and I are going on a Norwegian Fjords cruise in May. We took trips to WDW and Disneyland last year. We took a 3 week road-trip honeymoon to 13 national parks in the Western US the year before. We went on a Central/South American cruise the year before that. And so on, going on at least one major trip each year. At some point, I would love to expand that to more but right now there are other competing interests that also need to be funded. Travel makes us happy and so we prioritize for those expenses, giving up other things that don't contribute so much to that. My brother buys expensive clothes, eats out a ton and drives an Audi, but he never travels. We all make choices.

My basic point in this post is that I would like to take my parent's approach for my own children. They didn't give us everything in life, even though they could have. They focused on making us value the things that we had and they made us work for much of that. But in the end, they valued education so highly that they felt it was imperative to pay the full cost for us. It was the one thing that they knew would have the single greatest impact on our future and set us up for a good life, though the final outcome was ultimately in our own hands. That is what I want for my kids.

First of all living and vacationing in a country is very very very different. You said you saw this things but did you stopped and talked to this people ? But I think your response only proves to my original point of how obsessed people in this country are about their financial situations. Yeah there are people that live on extreme poverty but newflash there are people that live in extreme poverty in the US i can't think of certain parts of Hawaii and the Appalachians for example.

The world has changed and now we have less people dying of hunger and more dying from over eating (obesity). Yes the country safety net systems are better than what it is provided in the US but no without its faults. Most people in those countries plan to live of their social security and that is it the idea of retirement is very different and because families are so much closer kids make sure that their parents are taking care of if need be. And the biggest one of all people are usually healthier than in the US because they don't eat junk out of convenience. Which make a huge impact on health cost.

It is fine if that is what you want to save for but there is not other interest competing is what YOU are choosing to prioritize. Because you want your retirement to look a certain way.
We spend a lot of time with DH grandparents and their friends. When we talked about traveling to x place 3 out of the 10 couples said they always wanted to go there and they planned on doing it when they retired and when they finally retired they couldn't go because of health issues. A subject that we always like to touch with older people are their biggest regret so far we have never encounter someone that told us save more money (even the one guy that goes around the neighborhood collecting cans to make extra money didn't say that). They regret not traveling, not spending more time with family, not going to that special concert, not spending more time with friend etc.

The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions...

I see so many people here that work so much that they "don't" have time to eat healthy, they don't have time to go to the thy gym, but really is that is not their priority but it all catches up to you eventually. I would rather live a full life and die having $100 in my bank account than die with a bunch of money and know I never got to do everything I wanted.

I really do hope you get to retirement age and it is everything that you are expecting and more. Many don't ever get there. We have retirement savings (much more than people our age in the US). But in the end to me money is just that money and if tomorrow our pets would need some ridiculous life saving procedure that will take all our vet bills savings and our regular savings I will in a heart beat empty those accounts without second thought . In fact I have empty all our savings before to help a dog I found in the street best money I ever spent! We travel a lot we are leaving for Disney later today this will be our third trip this year. I grew up well off in fact my dads family still well off we vacation every holiday even if it was 4 days. And while my mom always try to teach is the value of money she always made sure to empathize that money is just that a medium and not happiness and to prioritize the really important things. Maybe it is because of the nature of her work (banking) she managed accounts over 20 mil before she decided to quit to go into consulting ( taking a huge pay cut ). The stories of what families do to each other for money were awful and very draining for her.

You know one of the things that impacted me the most living abroad was we always had living in help they all come from poor backgrounds and every single day my mom would ask them how were they doing they never complain they always said things I am doing good and will mention something good that was happening that day this was common. I yet to find someone that does that here. I have gone back to those countries and seen this people that we miss so very much and they still do that I am so grateful to them because they have truly change my life prespective always looking at a glass half full than half empty can make all the difference in the world. Personally I really could care less how other people decide to spend their money, but I did find the responses in this thread very interesting and quite telling about middle class in the US.

 

[DLgal]

Related to the original subject:

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...crisis-has-americas-highest-paid-feeling-poor

This can't be a new thing. I can remember talking with co-workers about the high housing prices in Silicon Valley in the late 90's as the dot-com boom was heating up. Unless I grew up in California, I would never want to live in California. Really what is the point of making a high salary when it still isn't enough? I make about $30K less than this guy but my 4-bedroom house on 4 acres only cost me $275K 4 years ago.

I read this article the other day. I found these people to be whiny and kind of out of touch.

We live in So Cal (Orange county). My husband is military and I am a SAHM. We make about $135000 per year (I don't mind stating this because military pay is public knowledge).

Our rent is $3250/month, family of 4. And we are doing fine. We are funding retirement, college funds, eating well, have 4 Disneyland APs, and are able to sock away a couple thousand per month in savings. We have a little debt that is at 0% which we are paying off this year, but that's it. Our cars are paid off. Our kids don't have expensive activities and we are not fancy. I don't buy expensive clothes or accessories and my kids wear clothes from Target, Costco, or Old Navy.

People need to let go of the myth that owning a house is the best thing. It's often not at all. That guy paying $3000/month for two bedrooms in SF is getting a major deal! My sister and her husband and two kids are paying $4000 for the same thing in SF. And they are making it work on less than $160k/year. If either of them wanted to buy the place they were renting, their mortgage would be twice their rent payment! This is where rent vs buy calculators come in handy.

I hate the notion that renters are "throwing away money." No, we are paying for shelter, which is a necessity, just like we pay for food, clothing, water, electricity, etc. We get to live in a wonderful place with the best schools for a fraction of the cost of buying here. We have no worries about home repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc. When we need to move, we just move. No stress about selling a house and potentially losing money. It's peace of mind and it's worth a lot to us.

I wouldn't buy a house, honestly, unless I had enough in CASH to pay for it. That's our plan when we are of actual retirement age (60). We are building up savings to that end, which is 22 years away. And we plan to buy a new small house or condo, rather than reaching retirement age in a house that is 30 years old or older. I don't want to deal with house repairs in old age, thanks. That's what my parents did...Rented for years then retired in Florida. They had a house built in a retirement community and paid cash for it.

Oh, and for the record, we love living in CA and plan to stay here for many more years, and will happily keep renting to make that happen. California is amazing. I've lived in New York, New Jersey, and Virginia and CA beats them all hands down.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

I hate the notion that renters are "throwing away money." No, we are paying for shelter, which is a necessity, just like we pay for food, clothing, water, electricity, etc. We get to live in a wonderful place with the best schools for a fraction of the cost of buying here. We have no worries about home repairs, insurance, property taxes, etc. When we need to move, we just move. No stress about selling a house and potentially losing money. It's peace of mind and it's worth a lot to us.

My best friend is like this. She has no desire to ever own a home. She is very content with renting. Doesn't want the hassle that comes along with homeownership, mortgage, insurance, upkeep like repairs painting, etc. I don't see renting as throwing away money but I think it depends on if your goal is to own a home in the distant future, own a home in the near future or not own a home at all.

 

[DaisyJ]

First of all living and vacationing in a country is very very very different. You said you saw this things but did you stopped and talked to this people ? But I think your response only proves to my original point of how obsessed people in this country are about their financial situations. Yeah there are people that live on extreme poverty but newflash there are people that live in extreme poverty in the US i can't think of certain parts of Hawaii and the Appalachians for example.

The world has changed and now we have less people dying of hunger and more dying from over eating (obesity). Yes the country safety net systems are better than what it is provided in the US but no without its faults. Most people in those countries plan to live of their social security and that is it the idea of retirement is very different and because families are so much closer kids make sure that their parents are taking care of if need be. And the biggest one of all people are usually healthier than in the US because they don't eat junk out of convenience. Which make a huge impact on health cost.

It is fine if that is what you want to save for but there is not other interest competing is what YOU are choosing to prioritize. Because you want your retirement to look a certain way.
We spend a lot of time with DH grandparents and their friends. When we talked about traveling to x place 3 out of the 10 couples said they always wanted to go there and they planned on doing it when they retired and when they finally retired they couldn't go because of health issues. A subject that we always like to touch with older people are their biggest regret so far we have never encounter someone that told us save more money (even the one guy that goes around the neighborhood collecting cans to make extra money didn't say that). They regret not traveling, not spending more time with family, not going to that special concert, not spending more time with friend etc.

The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions...

I see so many people here that work so much that they "don't" have time to eat healthy, they don't have time to go to the thy gym, but really is that is not their priority but it all catches up to you eventually. I would rather live a full life and die having $100 in my bank account than die with a bunch of money and know I never got to do everything I wanted.

I really do hope you get to retirement age and it is everything that you are expecting and more. Many don't ever get there. We have retirement savings (much more than people our age in the US). But in the end to me money is just that money and if tomorrow our pets would need some ridiculous life saving procedure that will take all our vet bills savings and our regular savings I will in a heart beat empty those accounts without second thought . In fact I have empty all our savings before to help a dog I found in the street best money I ever spent! We travel a lot we are leaving for Disney later today this will be our third trip this year. I grew up well off in fact my dads family still well off we vacation every holiday even if it was 4 days. And while my mom always try to teach is the value of money she always made sure to empathize that money is just that a medium and not happiness and to prioritize the really important things. Maybe it is because of the nature of her work (banking) she managed accounts over 20 mil before she decided to quit to go into consulting ( taking a huge pay cut ). The stories of what families do to each other for money were awful and very draining for her.

You know one of the things that impacted me the most living abroad was we always had living in help they all come from poor backgrounds and every single day my mom would ask them how were they doing they never complain they always said things I am doing good and will mention something good that was happening that day this was common. I yet to find someone that does that here. I have gone back to those countries and seen this people that we miss so very much and they still do that I am so grateful to them because they have truly change my life prespective always looking at a glass half full than half empty can make all the difference in the world. Personally I really could care less how other people decide to spend their money, but I did find the responses in this thread very interesting and quite telling about middle class in the US.

For most people, their priorities change once they have children.

 

[ellie05]

For most people, their priorities change once they have children.

Of course no one is debating that. And to some don't.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

First of all living and vacationing in a country is very very very different. But I think your response only proves to my original point of how obsessed people in this country are about their financial situations. Yeah there are people that live on extreme poverty but newflash there are people that live in extreme poverty in the US i can't think of certain parts of Hawaii and the Appalachians for example.

The world has changed and now we have less people dying of hunger and more dying from over eating (obesity). Yes the country safety net systems are better than what it is provided in the US but no without its faults. Most people in those countries plan to live of their social security and that is it the idea of retirement is very different and because families are so much closer kids make sure that their parents are taking care of if need be. And the biggest one of all people are usually healthier than in the US because they don't eat junk out of convenience. Which make a huge impact on health cost.

It is fine if that is what you want to save for but there is not other interest competing is what YOU are choosing to prioritize. Because you want your retirement to look a certain way.
We spend a lot of time with DH grandparents and their friends. When we talked about traveling to x place 3 out of the 10 couples said they always wanted to go there and they planned on doing it when they retired and when they finally retired they couldn't go because of health issues. A subject that we always like to touch with older people are their biggest regret so far we have never encounter someone that told us save more money (even the one guy that goes around the neighborhood collecting cans to make extra money didn't say that). They regret not traveling, not spending more time with family, not going to that special concert, not spending more time with friend etc.

The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions...

I see so many people here that work so much that they "don't" have time to eat healthy, they don't have time to go to the thy gym, but really is that is not their priority but it all catches up to you eventually. I would rather live a full life and die having $100 in my bank account than die with a bunch of money and know I never got to do everything I wanted.

I really do hope you get to retirement age and it is everything that you are expecting and more. Many don't ever get there. We have retirement savings (much more than people our age in the US). But in the end to me money is just that money and if tomorrow our pets would need some ridiculous life saving procedure that will take all our vet bills savings and our regular savings I will in a heart beat empty those accounts without second thought . In fact I have empty all our savings before to help a dog I found in the street best money I ever spent! We travel a lot we are leaving for Disney later today this will be our third trip this year. I grew up well off in fact my dads family still well off we vacation every holiday even if it was 4 days. And while my mom always try to teach is the value of money she always made sure to empathize that money is just that a medium and not happiness and to prioritize the really important things. Maybe it is because of the nature of her work (banking) she managed accounts over 20 mil before she decided to quit to go into consulting ( taking a huge pay cut ). The stories of what families do to each other for money were awful and very draining for her.

You know one of the things that impacted me the most living abroad was we always had living in help they all come from poor backgrounds and every single day my mom would ask them how were they doing they never complain they always said things I am doing good and will mention something good that was happening that day this was common. I yet to find someone that does that here. I have gone back to those countries and seen this people that we miss so very much and they still do that I am so grateful to them because they have truly change my life prespective always looking at a glass half full than half empty can make all the difference in the world. Personally I really could care less how other people decide to spend their money, but I did find the responses in this thread very interesting and quite telling about middle class in the US.

Yeah, I think we just have very different ideas.

First, I work in public health, so I know a lot about the state of global disease and poverty around the world. It is true the number of people living in extreme poverty has decreased significantly over the last several decades (due mainly to public health interventions such as vaccinations and family planning) but the burden of poverty in the US is vastly different than globally since very few in the US are considered to live in absolute poverty like the 1.4 billion people around the world that subsist on $1.50 a day. And malnutrition and starvation is still a larger global problem than obesity.

If you think retirement planning at 33 is silly, then you will be super disappointed to learn that I started making contributions to a Roth IRA when I got my first real job at 16. I see saving money as smart, not stupid.

And I mainly take issue with your idea that saving money now means that I can't enjoy my life now too. I chose a job that only requires me to work 40 hours per week and is, for the most part, pretty low stress but still has good pay and very generous benefits. I get 4 weeks of paid time off each year. I could make more money at a law firm, but I wanted to enjoy my life and not be a slave to my job. My job is challenging and fulfilling, but still allows me to do other things. And with all that free time that I have, it means that I get to spend lots of time doing the things that make me happy like spending time with family and friends, traveling, hiking, camping, sewing, etc.

I don't see your world view as very half glass full. I see it as pretty half glass empty. You seem to be saying that there are two choices: either live it up now and die in poverty or live in poverty and die before you hit retirement age. Seems pretty pessimistic to me. I will stick with my choices, saving now while still enjoying life and enjoy life in my old age too.

 

[erc]

I read this article the other day. I found these people to be whiny and kind of out of touch.

We live in So Cal (Orange county). My husband is military and I am a SAHM. We make about $135000 per year (I don't mind stating this because military pay is public knowledge).

Our rent is $3250/month, family of 4. And we are doing fine.

My mortgage is $1,678 a month and I don't get BAH. What is it almost $4,000/month for you? The military housing allowance is a pretty nice perk. You guys seem to be doing pretty well in the military. I remember having a decision to make in 1992. Find a job within two months or apply to OCS, as I was already serving as an E-4 in the Army Reserves. At that time, officer pay was not on par with civilian pay. Little did I realize that would change. I could be retired now and still working a high-paying job, or dead I suppose.

Guess that is why I am now showing my kids that you can live a pretty good life as a military officer.

 

[ellie05]

Yeah, I think we just have very different ideas.

First, I work in public health, so I know a lot about the state of global disease and poverty around the world. It is true the number of people living in extreme poverty has decreased significantly over the last several decades (due mainly to public health interventions such as vaccinations and family planning) but the burden of poverty in the US is vastly different than globally since very few in the US are considered to live in absolute poverty like the 1.4 billion people around the world that subsist on $1.50 a day. And malnutrition and starvation is still a larger global problem than obesity.

If you think retirement planning at 33 is silly, then you will be super disappointed to learn that I started making contributions to a Roth IRA when I got my first real job at 16. I see saving money as smart, not stupid.

And I mainly take issue with your idea that saving money now means that I can't enjoy my life now too. I chose a job that only requires me to work 40 hours per week and is, for the most part, pretty low stress but still has good pay and very generous benefits. I get 4 weeks of paid time off each year. I could make more money at a law firm, but I wanted to enjoy my life and not be a slave to my job. My job is challenging and fulfilling, but still allows me to do other things. And with all that free time that I have, it means that I get to spend lots of time doing the things that make me happy like spending time with family and friends, traveling, hiking, camping, sewing, etc.

I don't see your world view as very half glass full. I see it as pretty half glass empty. You seem to be saying that there are two choices: either live it up now and die in poverty or live in poverty and die before you hit retirement age. Seems pretty pessimistic to me. I will stick with my choices, saving now while still enjoying life and enjoy life in my old age too.

You are equating money=happiness. Those people are poor therefore unhappy. No one said world hunger is not an issue.

I have the feeling you are feeling attacked I don't see the reason for that. Your post is very defensive. In fact my post about this didn't even quoted one of your posts. I never said savings are stupid... or that retirement planning is silly. I said I will not consume my life worrying so much about the future. There is absolutely no reason for me to be disappointed because frankly I don't care how other people spend their money it doesn't affect me one bit. I was having a blast at 16 didn't think about retirement at all.

Haha I never said there "either live it up now and die in poverty or live in poverty and die before you hit retirement age." By the way I don't agree with either of those statements. If you carefully read i said we have savings and retirement savings(which we contribute every month to)... anyway I have to pack because we leave in a few hours .

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

You are equating money=happiness. Those people are poor therefore unhappy. No one said world hunger is not an issue.

I have the feeling you are feeling attacked I don't see the reason for that. Your post is very defensive. In fact my post about this didn't even quoted one of your posts. I never said savings are stupid... or that retirement planning is silly. I said I will not consume my life worrying so much about the future. There is absolutely no reason for me to be disappointed because frankly I don't care how other people spend their money it doesn't affect me one bit. I was having a blast at 16 didn't think about retirement at all.

Haha I never said there "either live it up now and die in poverty or live in poverty and die before you hit retirement age." By the way I don't agree with either of those statements. If you carefully read i said we have savings and retirement savings(which we contribute every month to)... anyway I have to pack because we leave in a few hours .

So in some ways money does equal happiness, but not in the way that you seem to be understanding it.

Research supports the idea that the more financial security someone has, the happier they are. This is well supported through many, many scientific studies. Now financial security can look differently for different people. You can have a low income, but have all of your needs met and therefore be financially secure. Or you can have a very high income, but live paycheck to paycheck and not be financially secure. For those living in countries that provide more robust safety nets, they feel that they have more financial security and therefore live happier lives because they are not as worried. Scandinavian countries are the perfect example. Residents there are reported to have the highest levels of happiness, year after year. But they also have the most robust government services of any nations in the world. But there is a trade off in that they pay roughly 60% of their income towards taxes. It doesn't seem those high taxes put a damper on their happiness though, even though paying those taxes may limit their disposable income.

My government is unlikely to help me, so I am making sure that I provide for my own financial security and happiness, now and in the future.

And as far as being defensive, I felt your comment, "The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions..." was indeed a personal attack on me. You might not think so, but your entire tone has been very condescending, almost like you were attacking me for being a diligent saver and assuming that I couldn't possibly be happy or be living a fulfilling life while planning for the future too. And just so you know, I was having a blast at 16 too, probably more than I care to admit. But it took about 20 minutes out of that entire year to open up and make a deposit into my Roth IRA. That thousand dollars is now worth a whole hell of a lot more thanks to compounding interest. Makes me feel pretty damned happy.

And hope you have a wonderful trip.

 

[DLgal]

My mortgage is $1,678 a month and I don't get BAH. What is it almost $4,000/month for you? The military housing allowance is a pretty nice perk. You guys seem to be doing pretty well in the military. I remember having a decision to make in 1992. Find a job within two months or apply to OCS, as I was already serving as an E-4 in the Army Reserves. At that time, officer pay was not on par with civilian pay. Little did I realize that would change. I could be retired now and still working a high-paying job, or dead I suppose.

Guess that is why I am now showing my kids that you can live a pretty good life as a military officer.

Yeah, our BAH is currently $3540/month. I included that in the annual salary I posted. Due to the tax benefit of BAH our "civilian equivalent" salary is approximately $150k.

When DH commissioned in 2000, his base pay was around $1700/month. No BAH, since we weren't married yet.

Fast forward and he is about to pin on O-5 with 18 years in. I have been a SAHM since 2004 and we have lived most of that time in Orange County CA.

I have no complaints about military officer pay. I think it is fair compensation and we have been able to live very well. The sweetest thing will be the lifetime pension and the super low cost health insurance that he will start collecting when he retires in 2 years. Takes a lot of stress out of retirement planning. And knowing we won't be paying crazy amounts for health care is reassuring.

My husband enlisted in the Marines at 17. He did a year as a reservist and started ROTC his second year of college. Best decision he ever made (other than marrying me, LOL).

 

[AquaDame]

So in some ways money does equal happiness, but not in the way that you seem to be understanding it.

Research supports the idea that the more financial security someone has, the happier they are.

To a point, yes. I don't /think/ anyone was arguing that? Eventually you hit diminished returns - a much larger house doesn't garner much more happiness than a sufficient house. It sounds like both you and ellie05 are on the same page really... have fun AND save. Easy.

We're in the middle tax bracket... by the time we pay all our other taxes (income, SS, gas tax, property, DMV & DEQ fees, taxes on utilities etc) I do wonder what % of taxes we end up paying. I don't dislike the idea of bumping it up another 10%-20% and not having to worry so much about health insurance and elder care when I'm old personally. Even better if my city were able to get its act together and properly fund the schools/repair our roads and a myriad of other issues we have currently.

 

[DawnM]

Yeah, our BAH is currently $3540/month. I included that in the annual salary I posted. Due to the tax benefit of BAH our "civilian equivalent" salary is approximately $150k.

When DH commissioned in 2000, his base pay was around $1700/month. No BAH, since we weren't married yet.

Fast forward and he is about to pin on O-5 with 18 years in. I have been a SAHM since 2004 and we have lived most of that time in Orange County CA.

I have no complaints about military officer pay. I think it is fair compensation and we have been able to live very well. The sweetest thing will be the lifetime pension and the super low cost health insurance that he will start collecting when he retires in 2 years. Takes a lot of stress out of retirement planning. And knowing we won't be paying crazy amounts for health care is reassuring.

My husband enlisted in the Marines at 17. He did a year as a reservist and started ROTC his second year of college. Best decision he ever made (other than marrying me, LOL).

This is one reason we are going back to where we came from. I have so much vested in the system there and if I can work another 13 years, I will have health care for DH and me for life included in my retirement.

Here I get very little.

Health care is huge.

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

To a point, yes. I don't /think/ anyone was arguing that? Eventually you hit diminished returns - a much larger house doesn't garner much more happiness than a sufficient house. It sounds like both you and ellie05 are on the same page really... have fun AND save. Easy.

We're in the middle tax bracket... by the time we pay all our other taxes (income, SS, gas tax, property, DMV & DEQ fees, taxes on utilities etc) I do wonder what % of taxes we end up paying. I don't dislike the idea of bumping it up another 10%-20% and not having to worry so much about health insurance and elder care when I'm old personally. Even better if my city were able to get its act together and properly fund the schools/repair our roads and a myriad of other issues we have currently.

But that isn't the argument that I am making. It doesn't matter about the size of your house so much as it matters if you can easily make your mortgage payments or, even better, own your house outright. Those are the things that studies point to as increasing happiness because those things are a function of financial security. If you buy a huge house but struggle to make payments, then large size of your house isn't going to counteract your feelings of financial insecurity.

And as to your second point, I doubt you pay 40-50% of your income in taxes. The US tax system is a marginal tax system, meaning that you only pay the marginal rate on income that falls within that tax bracket. So in your case, being in the middle tax bracket (28%) married filing jointly, means that for income between $0 – $18,550, you pay 10% tax or $1,855. For income between $18,551 – $75,300, you pay 15% tax or $8,512.35. For income between $75,301 – $151,900, you pay 25% tax or $19,149.75. And for income between $151,901 – $231,450, assuming you made income at the very top of that margin, you would pay 28% tax or $22,273.72.

This would be a total tax of $51,790.82 on $231,450 or 22.4% total on your income. Now, most people do not actually pay that full tax bill because they are eligible for tax deductions and credits, as well as other means such as pre-tax payroll deductions that help decrease their taxable income. To even be at a 40% tax rate (discounting deductions, credits, etc.), you would have to spend another $40,789.18 on the other taxes mentioned (SS, gas tax, property, DMV & DEQ fees, taxes on utilities etc). As far as social security tax, you don't pay SS on income over $118,500 for 2016, so if you are a single income household then you would pay a maximum of $7,347. If you are a dual-earning household, you could pay up to $14,349.90 in social security tax, but that would only be in the case that one of you made exactly $118,500 and the other made the remainder (kind of unlikely). You would still need to pay another $26,439.28 in other taxes. I just don't see that as likely.

 

[ThistleMae]

It seems this particular thread has gotten a bit argumentative. If people here are feeling offended or even attacked....how do we expect to achieve peace between different countries? It isn't all that easy is it?

 

[Jen and Ashwin]

It seems this particular thread has gotten a bit argumentative. If people here are feeling offended or even attacked....how do we expect to achieve peace between different countries? It isn't all that easy is it?

Pointing out areas of difference of opinion or presenting facts to support a point is not an argument.

 

[erc]

It seems this particular thread has gotten a bit argumentative. If people here are feeling offended or even attacked....how do we expect to achieve peace between different countries? It isn't all that easy is it?

People will always have disagreements on how to live a life whether that includes money, kids, education, religion, etc.

That doesn't mean we will be launching nukes at each other. As I have gotten older, I feel a lot more comfortable saying, I don't have all the answers and I haven't always made all the best choices when it comes to money or kids. I'm fortunate that a high income has helped me smooth over many of the poor financial choices I may have made. But I have long ago given up the goal of dying with the most money. That was a goal of mine when I was in my 20's. As long as I don't have a crushing debt that I can't get out of, and some amount of private retirement savings, hopefully I will be able to live a peaceful life in retirement, which is still 20 years away. But I will never be a multi-millionaire, unless that one great novel comes into my head. I will probably be just a one or two millionaire, and then it will dwindle down to nothing as I approach the end of my life. And hopefully by then I have lived a good enough life that somebody will remember me, and miss my company.

 

[PollyannaMom]

Says middle for us. When I put in our demographics below, it said people with our education in our age and race groups were 58% in upper income tier. We're doing something wrong.

That's what I got, too. - And I know exactly what we did (not, in my opinion) "wrong". - I gave up the fancy, too-many-hours job in the city when DS was born!

I think the whole thing is about balancing this:

...We don't live any kind of lavish life style. We do have a nice home, but it was a pretty modest price compared to homes in many areas of the country...We rarely eat out. We vacation once per year for a week and nothing extravagant. We don't spend much on gadgets or hobbies. I guess we are more focused on building wealth now so we worry less later, but that means we are living a very middle class lifestyle even if Pew thinks we are upper class.

and this:

...I am not running trying to pay our house or our car off...I will go to hike the Inca trail when I am still young and healthy, I am going to Italy to sip wine and heck I am going to drink good champagne, eat organic foods and probably pay too much for gym memberships. I remember an old thread on this board how someone said how this young people are so spoil that they expect to have gym memberships ironically people save so much money and forget that money won't buy you health or time. It remains me of my favorite quote "people wait all week for Friday, all year for summer and all life for happiness." I refuse to be those people. Just look at this thread most people don't see really happy to be were they are at. I am happy I am thankful everyday for what I have I think that is something that learned from those third world countries we lived in where people had much much less and yet they are still rank highest in happiness. No one is obsessed about retirement and everyone still makes it fine. I think one huge difference is that people in the US plan to travel and do all this things when they retire when they finally get there they can't do it because of health issues or other reasons. In other places most people travel when young and retirement they live a low key life and spend time with their families.

in a way that you can live with. For us, it's somewhere in the middle. We've made a few double mortgage payments here and there, but we've also taken bigger trips than we "should have" at the time and purchased things just because they make us happy. We're influenced by the experiences of our parents on both sides. - DH's are in very good financial shape due to pinching pennies when they were young. But my mom didn't live long enough to enjoy her retirement, so we're also very conscious of sacrificing too much of today for tomorrow.

...A subject that we always like to touch with older people are their biggest regret so far we have never encounter someone that told us save more money (even the one guy that goes around the neighborhood collecting cans to make extra money didn't say that). They regret not traveling, not spending more time with family, not going to that special concert, not spending more time with friend etc.

I think that's a really smart thing to ask people, and I'm going to try to start doing it!

I bet I'll find this true:

...I doubt there are many on their death bed that regret not putting in more hours at the office or regret that they decided to go on that once in a lifetime trip when they were young. At that point in my life I'd rather think about good memories and times I had with family instead of being glad I have a bunch of money in the bank.

I think most of us had been through that. I think those calculators are so ridiculous! Right now, the bank rate calculator online says we could easily (going by the most conservative recommendation) afford a house that is $130,000 more than what we paid for ours. There's absolutely no way we could afford that.

I definitely agree with this! We absolutely chose "less" house than the bank told us we could afford, because I couldn't imagine living on what would have been left over!

Research supports the idea that the more financial security someone has, the happier they are. This is well supported through many, many scientific studies. Now financial security can look differently for different people. You can have a low income, but have all of your needs met and therefore be financially secure. Or you can have a very high income, but live paycheck to paycheck and not be financially secure. For those living in countries that provide more robust safety nets, they feel that they have more financial security and therefore live happier lives because they are not as worried...

I think this is a very important point, too! I read somewhere that more money actually can make people happier up to a certain point (I think it was $75,000 a year, but I don't know when the article was written) but that after that more didn't make any difference in measurable happiness. It talked about exactly what you said - the happiness came from lack of worry about money, not the money itself.

And I'm sure the "where you stop worrying" point is different for different people!

 

[ThistleMae]

Pointing out areas of difference of opinion or presenting facts to support a point is not an argument.

Someone feeling personally attacked goes beyond pointing out areas of differences. Just saying.

 

[ellie05]

So in some ways money does equal happiness, but not in the way that you seem to be understanding it.

Research supports the idea that the more financial security someone has, the happier they are. This is well supported through many, many scientific studies. Now financial security can look differently for different people. You can have a low income, but have all of your needs met and therefore be financially secure. Or you can have a very high income, but live paycheck to paycheck and not be financially secure. For those living in countries that provide more robust safety nets, they feel that they have more financial security and therefore live happier lives because they are not as worried. Scandinavian countries are the perfect example. Residents there are reported to have the highest levels of happiness, year after year. But they also have the most robust government services of any nations in the world. But there is a trade off in that they pay roughly 60% of their income towards taxes. It doesn't seem those high taxes put a damper on their happiness though, even though paying those taxes may limit their disposable income.

My government is unlikely to help me, so I am making sure that I provide for my own financial security and happiness, now and in the future.

And as far as being defensive, I felt your comment, "The irony of saying living for now and saying at 33 you are making retirement decisions..." was indeed a personal attack on me. You might not think so, but your entire tone has been very condescending, almost like you were attacking me for being a diligent saver and assuming that I couldn't possibly be happy or be living a fulfilling life while planning for the future too. And just so you know, I was having a blast at 16 too, probably more than I care to admit. But it took about 20 minutes out of that entire year to open up and make a deposit into my Roth IRA. That thousand dollars is now worth a whole hell of a lot more thanks to compounding interest. Makes me feel pretty damned happy.

And hope you have a wonderful trip.

My post weren't trying to be condescending. I think your last post was trying to be really defensive. We can in circles round and round but that is not going to change either my experiences nor the way I look at things. My original post about the subject has many likes and even a post of someone that thank me for sharing it and that is all that I was trying to accomplish to remind people that yes saving and retirement and college savings are important but put in prespective. But I think people on this board see everything black and white. I personally was not trying to present my point and trying to back it up with facts because that would entail trying to either change someone mind or tryin to win an argument and I dont want neither. But I will stand by my original post about Americans being obsessed with personal finances. I was not attacking for being a saver just because I don't agree with you that makes you feel attacked? You responded to my original post to try to prove that you prove your point which is basically savings savings savings if That is what works for you and your are happy then who cares good for you. I don't see how my view point threats yours we can different opinions.

For personal experience I will say when I first got married we were probably as obsessed with personal finances as most Americans. It took me a few trips back and a particular very personal moment to have a life changing moment ( I won't share on this boards). Back then I would have said I was happy and we lived a good life, but I can not explain to you the freedom, fulfillment and happiness I have right now with the changes. Not only traveling but investing in experiences. It has translated into to all areas of my life it has pushed me to go out of my comfort zone and because of that I have grown. Looking back if I could change anything right now I would go back and do this sooner. But we are not the same and what works for some doesn't work for others.

Heck I admire so much those people that sell everything to travel the world, yet I know DH and I stock in a RV going with the flow will drive me crazy but it works for them and their are happy and that is all it matters. We are on vacations so this is the point where my phone will go away and if I come to the dis is to get info about something in the parks. I probably won't come back to this thread to respond unless it will be to something that brings positivity.