Run Over BY ECV

[KPeveler]

Then explain to me if they don't own their own chair how do they function in everyday life? Without a chair they would be walking during their everyday life wouldn't they? This is a concept I don't understand because without their chairs my dd's would have to crawl.

Some people rent in the parks because they do not wish to bring their own ECvs from home. some people have a heavy manual chair, and then rent an ECV at the park because they cannot propel themselves throughout the entire park. they would then leave their manual chair at the rental place.

i do not use a chair in daily life, but i would need to stay in my chair at most shows because i need special seating. i cannot sit on hard benches.

i still think the best solution should be to make the stores more accessible. disney can put in a couple more stores (like where 20,000 leagues was, and in mickey's toontown) to make up for the lost merchandise.

 

[WillCAD]

Really if someone is in a wheel chair or some other motorized transportation it is your responsiblity to watch out and be careful. If you are close enough to get run over...then you are too close.
Hey your at Disney...relax and feel the magic!!!!!

Actually, it's EVERYBODY's responsibility to be considerate and cautious of others, whether they are getting around on wheels, feet, crutches, or hover platforms.

But I disagree that closeness=imprudence. WDW gets crowded, particularly the shops and stores, and those narrow aisles don't help. Leaving extra personal space in a crowd is simply not possible at all times, so accidents are going to happen. I've been bumped, elbowed, and stepped on many times at WDW because the crowds were very heavy; it's simply a little more painful and dangerous to have a 200lb scooter with a 100-200lb person on it run over your foot than to have a 100-200lb person step on your foot, but there is no more fault in either case than the other.

What if ECV's were not allowed in stores but every store offered a smaller transfer wheelchair that could be used inside the store and CM assistance pushing the wheelchair through the store if requested?

Impractical and illegal; Disney could not afford to have CMs standing by in every store to both assist Guests in transfering and to wheel them around. Not to mention the liability issues incurred by having CMs help Guests transfer from scooters to specialized in-store wheelchairs. Likewise, requiring Guests with disabilities to go through those extra hoops would be illegal under ADA, because it shows that the stores are NOT accessible.

The solution is simple, easy, and wouldn't cost nearly as much money - move the shelves around a little to make the aisles wider.

i still think the best solution should be to make the stores more accessible. disney can put in a couple more stores (like where 20,000 leagues was, and in mickey's toontown) to make up for the lost merchandise.

Ditto.

And besides making the aisles wider to improve accessibility, putting them into neat, straight (or curved) rows that line up would also improve accessibility, as it would eliminate bottlenecks and sharp turns. A little planning of the layout can go a long way toward making every Guest's experience in the WDW shops and stores equally Magical. And all of that would, I'm sure, translate into greater sales, as those Guests in scooters would be able to more easily see and reach all of the merchandise.

 

[NYDisGuy]

Comparing TO's wish to ban ECV's out of stores to the holocaust might be a strecth.

However the holocaust started out exactly this way. Banning certain groups of people from doing certain things. There's been a lot of attention (and rightly so) for the jews murdered during that regime, some for the gypsies and of course a lot of attention for all of those murdered because of their work for the resistance. What a lot of people do not know is that disabled people were given the same treatment and a too many of them even a more painfull one. It started with them being banned from a store, than came public life, then came inclosing them in homes, than came the act of murdering them. If they were "lucky" they were sent to the gass-chambers directly. If they were not so "lucky" they were used as living guinea pigs (spelling?) for very cruel and painfull experiments by Mengele and his followers.

OK, comparing is a stretch. But; what and who can assure us that it is "only" banning people using an ECV from stores (because YES, there are those that wont be able to go in without the ECV) and it wont devellop into banning them from public life in total and going even further? The Germans were so sure it was "only" banning the disabled, jews and so many other from those who were "bothering" them. We all know where that story found it's end. What makes us better? Because we know for sure we won't go there?

Now, I'm not saying that in 3 years the USA will have it's own holocaust if TO gets his way. I'm merely stating that there are things none of us know for sure and we should think about it and learn from history.

The OP never said ban the people in the ECV, they said don't allow the ECV in stores, that is two totally different meanings.

 

[yasmina]

JMHO, but this thread is getting ridiculous.

Anything I would say further would, I'm sure, get me in trouble.

Mods??

 

[minnie61650]

JMHO, but this thread is getting ridiculous.

Anything I would say further would, I'm sure, get me in trouble.

Mods??

I will agree that some of the posts on this thread may be silly ( in fun kind of way) and /or off topic.

The fact remains the aisles in many of the stores at Disney and elsewhere are too narrow for ECV's and /or wheelchairs to maneuver safely.

Even when the aisles are wide enough many times a display is set up in the aisle creating a barrier and I need to back out.

It is a real problem for those of us who need to deal with it everyday.

 

[Spectro is #1]

Just posting so I can check out my new avatar!

 

[OneLittleSpark]

I think some shops are better than others, accessibility-wise. I find that the small, highly specialised merchandising places (like those at the end of attractions) tend to be more cramped than the bigger places like Mouse Gear in EPCOT. Before anyone jumps at me, I'm not saying that those of us on wheels should only be allowed in the larger shops, I just wanted to show that Disney isn't a total shambles when it comes to shop access.

I think this thread's doing fairly well, actually. We've had various ideas and solutions discussed and mostly things have remained fairly civil. The problem with this subject is that it's quite a tetchy issue for a lot of us, and it's a lot easier to misunderstand someone without the verbal and physical clues you get in face-to-face conversation.

Just remember everyone, it's the happy thoughts that make you fly!

 

[Mickiethepooh]

Then explain to me if they don't own their own chair how do they function in everyday life? Without a chair they would be walking during their everyday life wouldn't they? This is a concept I don't understand because without their chairs my dd's would have to crawl.

Let's see how do they function in every day life, I personally only get up during the day to go to the bathroom about 10' away and the kitchen when I have to about 20 feet. I can make it that far but even that causes me pain.

Because someone can make it about their house without a wheelchair or slowly from handicapped parking space to a in grocery store scooter etc. does not mean they can get off the scooter or chair to walk around shops all over Disney, or that they can walk even the distance from DISNEY HC parking to the wheelchair rental area.

Functioning at home where you have things set up as best you can and functioning somewhere like Disneyworld are very different things.
The point is that all these suggestions [other than the stores complying with the law and all people being more cautious and aware of others when in stores or parks] are impractical and or illegal. If this was such an easy thing to just solve it would have been solved, but since it depends on individual people doing the right thing it will never be solved.

 

[KPeveler]

I acutally enjoy these threads when they stay civil, because I like putting a different "face" on disability. for those of us who don't "look sick", we are often thought to be faking... i like to tell my story, and maybe make someone think twice next time they judge what disability is...

 

[KPeveler]

Then explain to me if they don't own their own chair how do they function in everyday life? Without a chair they would be walking during their everyday life wouldn't they? This is a concept I don't understand because without their chairs my dd's would have to crawl.

I know you don't really mean to sound like this, but the impression I get from what you said is that people who rent ECVs at the park are not "disabled enough" to need all the accommodations that "very disabled" people who have their own chairs need. i HATE the "enough" problems in the world today. Because I can still walk, I am not seen as "disabled enough" even by the disabled community to need help. However, I am not "well enough" to live my life without that help. I think if the word "enough" was taken out of the dictionary, it would be very helpful!

 

[Spectro is #1]

Wow, this tread is still going!

 

[OneLittleSpark]

K, I think you've put your finger on one of the problems people have with comments such as the OPs. By differentiating between what wheelchair users are allowed to do and what ECV users are allowed to do, implies that their disabilities, needs and rights are different. This then gets us into a whole realm of deciding who is, as K said, "disabled 'enough'" to be allowed to use their assistive device within the shop.

PS this post was not intended as an attack on anyone here at all, but as a statement of opinion.

 

[KPeveler]

Thanks OneLittleSpark

Also, I want to say I did not mean that to be an attack on Michigan or on anyone else. That is just a prevailing attitude that I have discovered and I thought it would be an interesting opinion to state. Michigan is a very strong parent of two disabled children and i am sure she (i think you are a woman, but correct me if I am wrong) is very frustrated with "fakers" as that makes it even harder for her girls.

 

[EMom]

Really if someone is in a wheel chair or some other motorized transportation it is your responsiblity to watch out and be careful. If you are close enough to get run over...then you are too close.
Hey your at Disney...relax and feel the magic!!!!!

Having read that statement, I'm still not sure I understand it. Are you saying that pedestrians should scurry out of the way of ECVs whenever EVCs get near enough to run over them? Or that ECVs are always have the right of way or are "in the right"? That hardly seems logical or fair.

The problem I see with threads like these is that it's all too often a black or white issue. Either the ECVers are slacker/fakers who abuse the system and run over people because they just don't care OR they are always the wronged party, who never go too fast, always look where they are going, and only run into others when those peds are the ones at fault. In truth, neither of those tell the whole story.

I do believe that people in wheelchairs and ECVs are often treated as nonentities and ignored/pushed aside/walked in front of, etc. Sometimes they can't help but run into someone because of that. BUT.....a fair number of them....especially the ones who decide that WDW is a great place to try out an ECV for the first time since it's such a huge area......are downright dangerous. My MIL is one.

We took her to WDW 2 years ago and tried to tell her before the trip that there was was no way her health would allow her to walk, and that a wheelchair would be needed. She refused until she had to walk from the parking lot to MK the first day, and then she was convinced. So we rented a regular wheelchair. My poor DH pushed her for a solid week, despite the fact that she weighs 50 pounds more than him. He did not do it for fun, but because we knew she would be a hazard in an ECV and would run over people left and right. In good conscience, we could be a party to that, so he strained his back all week to save others from being mowed down. It's 2.5 years later and she is still running over people when she uses an ECV. And she is by no means the only one of her kind out there. There's one woman in our old neighborhood who stuck fear in every mother's heart because she drove hers at top speed (and it was FAST!) through the grocery store, never once looking to see if a child was in the way. We had to yank kids out of her path or she would run them over. Then there are the ones who throw it in reverse without benefit of looking to see if anyone is actually BEHIND them.

Yes, the scary ECVers are in the minority in general society, but I believe their numbers are higher than normal at WDW because so many are first time, inexperienced drivers, and the crowded conditions are far from ideal. Add distracted peds and small children to that, and the situation worsens. Figure in that getting run over by an ECV with a human on it means several hundred pounds of pressure and perhaps a broken foot, and things get messy.

That's why this topic keeps coming up.

While at WDW, I intend to keep my eyes open, not stop short, and just pay attention in general. I hope the ECVers do the same. I also hope families that have maniac ECV drivers like my MIL use a little common courtesy and convince that family member that it's wrong for them to use the ECV in such crowded conditions when they are doomed to run over someone. "Rights" run both ways.

 

[madenon]

Wow, this tread is still going!

I know you just got a new avatar, but I like the bunny more!

 

[mgilmer]

Having read that statement, I'm still not sure I understand it. Are you saying that pedestrians should scurry out of the way of ECVs whenever EVCs get near enough to run over them? Or that ECVs are always have the right of way or are "in the right"? That hardly seems logical or fair.

The problem I see with threads like these is that it's all too often a black or white issue. Either the ECVers are slacker/fakers who abuse the system and run over people because they just don't care OR they are always the wronged party, who never go too fast, always look where they are going, and only run into others when those peds are the ones at fault. In truth, neither of those tell the whole story.

I do believe that people in wheelchairs and ECVs are often treated as nonentities and ignored/pushed aside/walked in front of, etc. Sometimes they can't help but run into someone because of that. BUT.....a fair number of them....especially the ones who decide that WDW is a great place to try out an ECV for the first time since it's such a huge area......are downright dangerous. My MIL is one.

We took her to WDW 2 years ago and tried to tell her before the trip that there was was no way her health would allow her to walk, and that a wheelchair would be needed. She refused until she had to walk from the parking lot to MK the first day, and then she was convinced. So we rented a regular wheelchair. My poor DH pushed her for a solid week, despite the fact that she weighs 50 pounds more than him. He did not do it for fun, but because we knew she would be a hazard in an ECV and would run over people left and right. In good conscience, we could be a party to that, so he strained his back all week to save others from being mowed down. It's 2.5 years later and she is still running over people when she uses an ECV. And she is by no means the only one of her kind out there. There's one woman in our old neighborhood who stuck fear in every mother's heart because she drove hers at top speed (and it was FAST!) through the grocery store, never once looking to see if a child was in the way. We had to yank kids out of her path or she would run them over. Then there are the ones who throw it in reverse without benefit of looking to see if anyone is actually BEHIND them.

Yes, the scary ECVers are in the minority in general society, but I believe their numbers are higher than normal at WDW because so many are first time, inexperienced drivers, and the crowded conditions are far from ideal. Add distracted peds and small children to that, and the situation worsens. Figure in that getting run over by an ECV with a human on it means several hundred pounds of pressure and perhaps a broken foot, and things get messy.

That's why this topic keeps coming up.

While at WDW, I intend to keep my eyes open, not stop short, and just pay attention in general. I hope the ECVers do the same. I also hope families that have maniac ECV drivers like my MIL use a little common courtesy and convince that family member that it's wrong for them to use the ECV in such crowded conditions when they are doomed to run over someone. "Rights" run both ways.

This has to be the absolute best post on this subject I have ever read!

 

[HarbinsMom]

If you get to ban ECV, I get to ban strollers

I agree.

 

[jenm2878]

I am not trying to be snotty, but i am wondering exactly what restrictions you think would help? I agree that people do need to learn to drive them better, but what would you suggest to improve the situation...

When we were in the Bahamas we took a Segway tour. The guide took 3-5 minutes with each person teaching them the basics/making us practice driving. We could not commence on our tour until the guide was comfortable that we would not be a danger to ourselves or others. Why can't CM's take a few minutes with each person and teach them the basics - make them practice driving for a couple minutes?

ETA: When we were in Disney a few years ago with my mom, we ended up pushing her in a wheel chair the last couple of days because she has a bum knee and couldn't take all the walking. She really was in pain, so it was needed, but you couldn't tell anything was wrong just to look at her in the chair. Being the lovely daughter I am, I was pushing her around nuttily and letting go at the tops of hills, etc. (not when anyone was around - it was raining and dead the last couple days we were there) I wonder how many people thought we were 'taking advantage' since we were laughing and having fun with it?

 

[Michigan]

Thanks OneLittleSpark

Also, I want to say I did not mean that to be an attack on Michigan or on anyone else. That is just a prevailing attitude that I have discovered and I thought it would be an interesting opinion to state. Michigan is a very strong parent of two disabled children and i am sure she (i think you are a woman, but correct me if I am wrong) is very frustrated with "fakers" as that makes it even harder for her girls.

I don't take anything you say as an attack and yes I'm a woman. I think the difference is you see the disability world through your experiences as a person with a disability that has pain and uses an ECV to avoid the pain and you should use it as it enhances the quality of your life.
I see the world through the 2 most precious things in the world to me that happen to be paraplegics.

Again, this isn’t meant to be an argument but anyone that had their own chair or used it on a regular basis would be nuts to trade it in for a Disney rental. The ECV has converters on them to slow them down and the wheelchairs are so heavy they have to be like pushing a bus.

As far as being run over by an ECV or wheelchair it happens but so does being run over by a stroller or being a person in an ECV or wheelchair and having an able bodied person fall over them.

It also doesn’t matter to me if someone rents a wheelchair or ECV there is no benefit as far as getting on rides faster so I don’t judge if they are faking but I do get upset when the shows are all full with rented chairs or when people in rented chairs go to the wheelchair parade spots and then get up out of the chairs and stand in front of people that are sitting in chairs.

 

[fan_of_small_world]

...I wonder how many people thought we were 'taking advantage' since we were laughing and having fun with it?

I've often wodered if the same thing might happen to us if we go with my aunt sometime. She uses an ECV because she has MS. She is still able to walk around quite a bit though (which of course is good for her circulation).

That means that, if she's walking, someone in our group will have to drive it, and I'm sure some stranger will think that we're faking and just switching off. Honestly, I won't care though, since we'll be having a great time and won't even notice if someone gets their panties in a wad about it!