Riviera Resale

[sethschroeder]

I just looked:
BW has 378 Cash / 532 DVC (smallest cash side hotel at WDW)
Poly has 380 Cash / 479 DVC (2nd smallest cash side)
WL has 430 Cash / 136 DVC 1 / 220 DVC 2
BCV has 583 Cash / 282 DVC
GF has 857 Cash / 147 DVC
Yacht has 630 Cash

If they were to remove down to 380 room that would give you 250 rooms worth of space to play with.

Yacht Club rooms are 381 sq/ft and would be 4th largest studio in DVC. If you don't account for Pods or GV you could make an approximate total of 126 lock-offs which would make it the smallest DVC resort (BRV 130s, VGF 140s, CCV 220).

 

[CastAStone]

My guess as Riviera sells out Disney announces that they will be converting portions of Yacht Club to DVC. The convention business is going to be permanently damaged. Converting rooms that will be less valuable now as convention center hotel rooms to high priced Crescent Lake DVC villas just makes too much sense. That will be the Epcot DVC Resort everyone wants then.

I think reflections eventually gets built, but I think over the next 2-4 years DVC will look to do a cheaper, smaller alternative they know will sell quick at a premium.

I agree with your thinking, but very much disagree that they will convert anything at YC. A major takeaway of the pandemic is that having a DVC attached to EVERY hotel makes scaling down hard, and this is the 2nd time they’ve had to scale down hotel capacity in 20 years, so it’s worth planning for. I mean my goodness they opened Jambo DVC and told everyone to walk to Kidani for food! Another hybrid property is a burden, not a blessing.

My prediction for the next WFW DVC is BC2, VGF2, or BLT2, and I’d lean towards VGF2

 

[i<3riviera]

͏

 

[dvc lover 1970]

I think the resale restrictions will be mute as they add new resorts or even looking into the future when 2042 expires. I think DVC is positioning themselves to set up an exchange fee to change in the system.

 

[sethschroeder]

I think the resale restrictions will be mute as they add new resorts or even looking into the future when 2042 expires. I think DVC is positioning themselves to set up an exchange fee to change in the system.

So I am not sure they can actually charge but they can essentially do it by adjusting the point requirements per resort.

 

[TinkB278]

I think the resale restrictions will be mute as they add new resorts or even looking into the future when 2042 expires. I think DVC is positioning themselves to set up an exchange fee to change in the system.

I hope they don’t start doing an exchange fee.

 

[sethschroeder]

I hope they don’t start doing an exchange fee.

I really don't think they need to. Its why they have the resale restriction. They don't really care about the issues with trading inside of 7 months their goal is simply to incentivize direct sales.

Also it goes back to "memberships benefit". Is it really a benefit to have an exchange fee or a point bump to stay at another resort only if the most popular resorts are more and the less popular are less (then maybe would have to really think it through).

 

[Sandisw]

So I am not sure they can actually charge but they can essentially do it by adjusting the point requirements per resort.

They definitely can as the updated document that went with RIV that included the restrictions for both RIV and L14 specifically gives them that ability.

The BVTC agreement also gives them the ability to charge a fee for trading. Something I discovered in looking at things recently.

 

[SL6827]

They definitely can as the updated document that went with RIV that included the restrictions for both RIV and L14 specifically gives them that ability.

The BVTC agreement also gives them the ability to charge a fee for trading. Something I discovered in looking at things recently.

So Disney has the legal capabilities of charging resale owners a fee to swap out to another resort other than their home resort? Holy Crap, if they go this route I know 100% for sure I will never jump back into the DVC waters. If I still owned my resale contract at OKW I would be livid with this type of news/possibiliities.

And where would that money go to? Disney's pockets I presume?

 

[Sandisw]

So Disney has the legal capabilities of charging resale owners a fee to swap out to another resort other than their home resort? Holy Crap, if they go this route I know 100% for sure I will never jump back into the DVC waters. If I still owned my resale contract at OKW I would be livid with this type of news/possibiliities.

And where would that money go to? Disney's pockets I presume?

Yes, they can charge a fee for resale points to be used at the newer resorts. Possibly the ability to buy direct points and then all points become eligible for all resorts.

BVTC...who runs the trading program can also charge a trading fee, but that one, the way I read it, would not be based on the points status, buy rather apply to all non resort trading, regardless of where points were bought.

So, resale or direct would be subject to that type of fee. We are not guaranteed the right to trade to non home resorts for free. Now, I don’t see them doing it...they never have...but it can be done.

In terms of the newest restrictions, that document gave them the power to change it, put it back, and come up with other ideas regarding it, etc.

Basically, there is a lot that in there that most don’t realize. As long as resorts stays as part of the club, points can trade to the other resorts...but, the rules can be changed, including a fee, the timeline, etc.

 

[CarolynFH]

And where would that money go to? Disney's pockets I presume?

Yes, they can charge a fee for resale points to be used at the newer resorts. Possibly the ability to buy direct points and then all points become eligible for all resorts.

BVTC...who runs the trading program can also charge a trading fee, but that one, the way I read it, would not be based on the points status, buy rather apply to all non resort trading, regardless of where points were bought.

So, resale or direct would be subject to that type of fee. We are not guaranteed the right to trade to non home resorts for free. Now, I don’t see them doing it...they never have...but it can be done.

In terms of the newest restrictions, that document gave them the power to change it, put it back, and come up with other ideas regarding it, etc.

Basically, there is a lot that in there that most don’t realize. As long as resorts stays as part of the club, points can trade to the other resorts...but, the rules can be changed, including a fee, the timeline, etc.

All of these fees are what other exchange companies (RCI, Interval International, etc.) charge, so BVTC (DVC) is an outlier in not charging any fees for exchanges. Presumably the fees go to pay for operating the exchange company - staff, computer programming, website, etc. And yes, there are plenty of complaints about the fees, how they keep rising and how website functionality keeps getting worse, so BVTC/DVC is not an outlier there!

 

[limace]

But DVC isn’t an exchange company-RCI doesn’t own timeshares themselves, and is a completely different than DVC or Marriott.

 

[Sandisw]

But DVC isn’t an exchange company-RCI doesn’t own timeshares themselves, and is a completely different than DVC or Marriott.

BVTC is the entity that is used to allow DVC owners to convert your home resort points to DVC vacation points which is what technically gives you the right to book a non home resort.

BVTC is very similar to RCI in the that it does not own property either.

The big difference is with DVC resorts, Disney oversees it all so it seems different because BVTC includes only DVC and not multiple like RCI.

Again, trading into other DVC is a result of your home resort being part of BVTC but that exchange company sets the rules and they get to decide what trading looks like.

if they decided to remove any DVC resort from it, then owners at that resort don’t get to trade into other DVC resorts..which would apply to all owners, not just resale.

 

[Bing Showei]

All of these fees are what other exchange companies (RCI, Interval International, etc.) charge, so BVTC (DVC) is an outlier in not charging any fees for exchanges.

If Disney has proven anything over the past few years, it is a willingness to adopt “industry standard” to whatever ends, as long as it serves the bottom line. The 2019 resale restrictions epitomizes this. When released, those restrictions were justified by every guide with specific talking points that involved some variation on pointing and saying, “But they’re doing it.”

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that BVTC starts initiating an exchange fee that direct owners will somehow be able to offset. When buying a Disney timeshare, resale or direct, you sign a disclosure that clearly states you understand that the BVTC may cease to operate at any point and is not part of the deeded real estate interest you are acquiring.

Now, I don’t see them doing it...they never have...but it can be done.

Disney having never done something before provides zero comfort after 2019. Nothing would surprise me, and I’m not convinced it would surprise you if they did fiddle with the BVTC either, Sandi. Like the resale restrictions, most owners will shrug, new buyers will not know anything else, owners will either adapt to the new “new product” or be grandfathered in a way to quell the masses, and some owners will even justify the changes as benefiting the membership.

The temperature will rise and the membership will continue enjoying the warm bath that is an “evolving” Disney timeshare. Ribbit.

 

[CarolynFH]

But DVC isn’t an exchange company-RCI doesn’t own timeshares themselves, and is a completely different than DVC or Marriott.

BVTC is the entity that is used to allow DVC owners to convert your home resort points to DVC vacation points which is what technically gives you the right to book a non home resort.

BVTC is very similar to RCI in the that it does not own property either.

The big difference is with DVC resorts, Disney oversees it all so it seems different because BVTC includes only DVC and not multiple like RCI.

Again, trading into other DVC is a result of your home resort being part of BVTC but that exchange company sets the rules and they get to decide what trading looks like.

if they decided to remove any DVC resort from it, then owners at that resort don’t get to trade into other DVC resorts..which would apply to all owners, not just resale.

Sandi is completely right. BVTC is a separate entity from DVC, just like RCI is separate from Club Wyndham, the timeshare entity that trades through (and owns) RCI, and Interval International is separate from Marriott’s timeshare arm which trades through (and owns) II. One difference is that Wyndham TS resorts are not the only set of resorts that trade through RCI, and Marriott TS resorts are not the only resorts that trade through II, but DVC resorts are the only ones that trade through BVTC.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Sandi is completely right. BVTC is a separate entity from DVC, just like RCI is separate from Club Wyndham, the timeshare entity that trades through (and owns) RCI, and Interval International is separate from Marriott’s timeshare arm which trades through (and owns) II. One difference is that Wyndham TS resorts are not the only set of resorts that trade through RCI, and Marriott TS resorts are not the only resorts that trade through II, but DVC resorts are the only ones that trade through BVTC.

Sorry but it's only separate in the eyes of the IRS and in accounting terms. We need to be real that it was formed by and is operated by Disney and DVC. Just as the execs of DVD overlap and comprise the execs of DVC they also run BVTC. Its a mechanism created operation and if DVC did not exist BVTC would not either. RCI may own or be owned by a large timeshare system but it includes a lot of systems in its trading umbrella that it doesn't control. So same functionally but also quite different.

 

[CarolynFH]

Sorry but it's only separate in the eyes of the IRS and in accounting terms. We need to be real that it was formed by and is operated by Disney and DVC. Just as the execs of DVD overlap and comprise the execs of DVC they also run BVTC. Its a mechanism created operation and if DVC did not exist BVTC would not either. RCI may own or be owned by a large timeshare system but it includes a lot of systems in its trading umbrella that it doesn't control. So same functionally but also quite different.

I agree. I was just trying to help other owners understand the difference between DVC and BVTC in terms of staying at non-home resorts, that in essence we are exchanging our time at our home resort for time at a non-home resort. Currently that process is seamless and without additional cost, but BVTC has the legal right to change the process and charge a cash exchange fee, charge non-home owners more points than home owners for the same stay, etc. It seems that many owners are unaware of that distinction.

 

[dvc lover 1970]

Basically, there is a lot that in there that most don’t realize. As long as resorts stays as part of the club, points can trade to the other resorts...but, the rules can be changed, including a fee, the timeline, etc.

I think it is brilliant on Disney's part if they go this route. It would make direct more desirable, but resale tolerable. They might even make it once you trade in, you cannot book your home resort with those points. They could charge based on points going into the system or flat fee. If i really wanted to try another resort, I would pay the fee. Resale owners would simply have to factor those fees into their annual dues.

 

[Brianstl]

So if they charge a fee to trade inside DVC properties to resale buyers, will they stop including the operating cost of BVTC in maintenance fees of resale buyers?

 

[Sandisw]

If Disney has proven anything over the past few years, it is a willingness to adopt “industry standard” to whatever ends, as long as it serves the bottom line. The 2019 resale restrictions epitomizes this. When released, those restrictions were justified by every guide with specific talking points that involved some variation on pointing and saying, “But they’re doing it.”

It wouldn’t surprise me at all that BVTC starts initiating an exchange fee that direct owners will somehow be able to offset. When buying a Disney timeshare, resale or direct, you sign a disclosure that clearly states you understand that the BVTC may cease to operate at any point and is not part of the deeded real estate interest you are acquiring.

Disney having never done something before provides zero comfort after 2019. Nothing would surprise me, and I’m not convinced it would surprise you if they did fiddle with the BVTC either, Sandi. Like the resale restrictions, most owners will shrug, new buyers will not know anything else, owners will either adapt to the new “new product” or be grandfathered in a way to quell the masses, and some owners will even justify the changes as benefiting the membership.

The temperature will rise and the membership will continue enjoying the warm bath that is an “evolving” Disney timeshare. Ribbit.

Surprised, no. They will do what they need. I just don’t see it happening right now. Once more of DVC 2 resorts are an option, then yup, I see things changing.

The holdup of Reflections due to the pandemic will push out any plan like this though.