Riviera Direct

[CastAStone]

Instead, I'd ask --- Based on the price being paid now, will you likely "get your money's worth" over the next 10-15 years? I'd look at any value beyond that time frame as "bonus" including the potential to re-sell after 10-15 years. [Even 10-15 years has a lot of uncertainty... we could have rolling pandemics destroying travel for the next decade. A personal tragedy could destroy your anticipated vacations).

I think this is a good idea for most people as well.

 

[sethschroeder]

look at the chart: BCV is the worst value and Riviera is 3rd best. That seems to be what you're arguing.

I am not arguing your chart is wrong for what its showing. My whole point is about the math over the long run. Yes money in the future buys less but buying today might get you a product that would have cost you more in the future.

It's basically a compressed version of the following math.

Correct the difference being though the bag does not follow a standard price increase in the DVC world. As I have outlined you are only looking at the per point price not the total cost of stay (example cost of 2BR, October, Standard View).

like for like comparisons

Which is why I was saying we are not on the same page. Hopefully you understand now I am talking about my full cost after 50 years with the flexibility to stay most anywhere (buying a resale contract at SSR in 2054 is "worthless" as an example).

 

[sethschroeder]

Invest your money wisely and pay cash for vacations.

I am not sure how that would work out.

Lets take Copper Creek Villas as an example in a 2BR in October for 9 night. Right now going on Disney's site that is $14,506.89 for that 9 night stay.

Flip side I buy CCV and need 366 points for that same stay which is $67,151.15 or if you wanted to do RIV it would be 415 points which is $65,601.25 which is roughly the same cost for the cash stay right now. As far as annual cost increase on the hotel side not sure what the % increase normally its been a while since I looked.

 

[havoc315]

I am not sure how that would work out.

Lets take Copper Creek Villas as an example in a 2BR in October for 9 night. Right now going on Disney's site that is $14,506.89 for that 9 night stay.

Flip side I buy CCV and need 366 points for that same stay which is $67,151.15 or if you wanted to do RIV it would be 415 points which is $65,601.25 which is roughly the same cost for the cash stay right now. As far as annual cost increase on the hotel side not sure what the % increase normally its been a while since I looked.

Let’s remember, most of the year, you don’t actually need to pay rack rate. Disney almost always is offering a discount of anywhere from 20-40% off deluxe villas.

So that 2 bedroom is more like $9,000 to $10,000. And you’re locking yourself into it for 50 years, Forgoing other travel opportunities.

and in pure dollars...
$65,000, compounded as a 7% investment return, would be $1,914,000 after 50 years.

So, is a 2 bedroom villa every year worth more than $2 million?

As I said... “Worth it” and “maximizing your dollar” are 2 different things. DVC can definitely provide a long term savings, but it doesn’t maximize your dollar.

 

[sethschroeder]

Let’s remember, most of the year, you don’t actually need to pay rack rate. Disney almost always is offering a discount of anywhere from 20-40% off deluxe villas.

So that 2 bedroom is more like $9,000 to $10,000. And you’re locking yourself into it for 50 years, Forgoing other travel opportunities.

and in pure dollars...
$65,000, compounded as a 7% investment return, would be $1,914,000 after 50 years.

So, is a 2 bedroom villa every year worth more than $2 million?

As I said... “Worth it” and “maximizing your dollar” are 2 different things. DVC can definitely provide a long term savings, but it doesn’t maximize your dollar.

I see you throw over a random assertion of just investing. Then when asked to show any math you just say "well is it worth it?"

I could never do anything fun in life but guess what my vacation fund comes out of downsizing of house and living further from work/airport (which actually isn't a negative right now).

So again I ask you made the statement to just take the money and invest. I am saying how far can you get by investing that $65k+MFs if you are going to Disney anyways?

Just for clarity I would likely have an additional $100k on my home and $5k in taxes if I were to move. I instead forgo on the home location (love our house still) in exchange for being able to do things like DVC, trips to Europe, kids activities, ect.

 

[Spark65]

Just for clarity I would likely have an additional $100k on my home and $5k in taxes if I were to move. I instead forgo on the home location (love our house still) in exchange for being able to do things like DVC, trips to Europe, kids activities, ect.

Sounds like you bought smart and plan to spend your money on your happiness ie: vacation - good use of funds

 

[havoc315]

I see you throw over a random assertion of just investing. Then when asked to show any math you just say "well is it worth it?"

I could never do anything fun in life but guess what my vacation fund comes out of downsizing of house and living further from work/airport (which actually isn't a negative right now).

So again I ask you made the statement to just take the money and invest. I am saying how far can you get by investing that $65k+MFs if you are going to Disney anyways?

Just for clarity I would likely have an additional $100k on my home and $5k in taxes if I were to move. I instead forgo on the home location (love our house still) in exchange for being able to do things like DVC, trips to Europe, kids activities, ect.

I think you misunderstood my statements.
All along, I said the question for DVC is whether it was worthwhile to the individual. It’s not a dollars and cents equation of maximizing your dollar.

 

[RivShore]

Let’s remember, most of the year, you don’t actually need to pay rack rate. Disney almost always is offering a discount of anywhere from 20-40% off deluxe villas.

So that 2 bedroom is more like $9,000 to $10,000. And you’re locking yourself into it for 50 years, Forgoing other travel opportunities.

and in pure dollars...
$65,000, compounded as a 7% investment return, would be $1,914,000 after 50 years.

So, is a 2 bedroom villa every year worth more than $2 million?

As I said... “Worth it” and “maximizing your dollar” are 2 different things. DVC can definitely provide a long term savings, but it doesn’t maximize your dollar.

But to end up with that $2M, your assuming zero vacation cost over those 50 years. What does the math look like if you take $10k a year out for that 2 bedroom?

 

[Lorana]

But to end up with that $2M, your assuming zero vacation cost over those 50 years. What does the math look like if you take $10k a year out for that 2 bedroom?

You’d run out of money in 9 years.

 

[sethschroeder]

You’d run out of money in 9 years.

I would assume taking in to account MFs it gets you out a little further but still well short of getting me to when the kids go off to school let alone well in to retirement.

I think you misunderstood my statements.
All along, I said the question for DVC is whether it was worthwhile to the individual. It’s not a dollars and cents equation of maximizing your dollar.

Except it is about maximizing my buying power for Disney in the long run and eliminating "risk" of price increases. Now I assume some of the risk because I am pre-paying for portions of 50 years worth of vacations. That being said some of my risk is alleviated by the ability to likely sell or rent my points.

 

[UrsulaWantsYourSoul]

RVA: sleep around points of the future!

Literally laughed out loud - thanks @i<3riviera

 

[havoc315]

I would assume taking in to account MFs it gets you out a little further but still well short of getting me to when the kids go off to school let alone well in to retirement.




Except it is about maximizing my buying power for Disney in the long run and eliminating "risk" of price increases. Now I assume some of the risk because I am pre-paying for portions of 50 years worth of vacations. That being said some of my risk is alleviated by the ability to likely sell or rent my points.

Agreed. But that’s all also balanced by:
1– will 9 days in a 2 br on-site villa have the same value to you in 50 years as it does now? Speaking for myself, I doubt I’ll be alive in 50 years. And even in 10 years, my vacation needs/wants won’t be the same as today.
2– Your return on investment would be much better with average stock market returns than by renting out points. Yes, renting out points “cuts your losses.” But it doesn’t equal the gains you could have otherwise.
3– and of course, it ignores all the possibilities that are far more cost efficient than a 2br-on site-villa.

Yes... if you plan on staying at Disney in a 2br villa for 9 days per year for the next 50 years...it’s likely cheaper to do it with DVC, instead of without DVC. (And while I’m not that extreme, that cost savings is why I purchased DVC). But it’s not going to maximize your dollar.
The reason to buy DVC is because you’re going to enjoy the vacations. Buying it as a long term investment to maximize profits— not a good idea.

 

[TinkB278]

Here’s my question on the economics of it. Riviera has such a high per point cost (unless you are able to get a great deal as an existing member with incentives right now), the point charts are high (requiring you buy a rather large number of points), and the maintenance fees are high. So, does buying Riviera really help you save on vacations to Disney? I’ve gone over the numbers and just can’t get it to work out in my head. I want it to, but I just can’t figure out how to justify buying here vs resale at a different resort.

The guide I spoke to made it sound dreadful to buy resale as the pool of the original 14 resorts is going to be shrinking and I’ll never get to stay at any new DVC resorts in the future.

 

[RivShore]

I think you really just need to focus on the breakeven point - compare your usual annual WDW hotel spend to the total DVC cost, taking point requirements and maintenance fees into account. The answer will be different for everyone. When we did that a while back, I think it was around 10 years for us. So, in our case, the DVC purchase was a 10 year pre-pay of vacations. This view removes the out years where it's really hard to know what your travel will be like. And after those 10 years, we either have very low cost annual WDW vacations or we sell the points and actually have some money in our pocket after those 10 years of vacations.

I'll also add that for us, DVC only started making some sense financially because hotel rates had gotten so high (this is all pre-covid, of course).

 

[sethschroeder]

So, does buying Riviera really help you save on vacations to Disney?

You really need to do your own math with your own incentives you have access to.

I try to outline where appropriate that I got my points for $155/point. I am not bragging but trying to make sure people are informed that my decision to buy was tied to that specific price.

the point charts are high

This is dependent when you look at VGF, POLY, BLT it is going to be in the area. If you are comparing BWV Std vs RIV though its going to be a gap or if you are looking at AKV vs RIV its going to be a gap.

maintenance fees are high

This is going to remain a thing IMO although I don't think its as high in comparison. Typically resorts have a 3 year period upon opening with very minimal increases to MFs while other resorts are going to see a 3%-5% increase.

sound dreadful to buy resale

There is really no issue with resale until 2042 when Epcot resorts completely disappear from the "resale system". You are going to save money upfront and long term direct is only going to save you money by using the AP discounts.

In theory in 20 years when Epcot is removed from the resale resorts you would have a good idea on your favorite resort or two, could buy resale there, and be "locked in" at those resorts.

 

[masupo]

Here’s my question on the economics of it. Riviera has such a high per point cost (unless you are able to get a great deal as an existing member with incentives right now), the point charts are high (requiring you buy a rather large number of points), and the maintenance fees are high. So, does buying Riviera really help you save on vacations to Disney? I’ve gone over the numbers and just can’t get it to work out in my head. I want it to, but I just can’t figure out how to justify buying here vs resale at a different resort.

The guide I spoke to made it sound dreadful to buy resale as the pool of the original 14 resorts is going to be shrinking and I’ll never get to stay at any new DVC resorts in the future.

Sorry, this got a little long…

I got the great incentives at RIV, but wouldn’t have bought there without them. The maintenance fee is high & one reason I didn’t buy more points. I’m going to take the money I would have spent on more RIV points and put that towards a resale contract at a different home resort.

Any new properties will probably have the same restrictions as RIV. But it will be 20-ish years before any of the original pool age out. That’s a decent amount of time to get enjoyment out of them through resale. I’m considering a couple of 2042 properties to buy resale because I’m 52. I’ll be in my 70’s, and I may be Disney’d out at that point.

The RIV point chart is high, but not the highest. I bought a Standard View studio Fixed Week at RIV (week 44 – Jersey Week) + a 25 pt separate contract to get the 150 pt incentive. I’ve included the apples-to-apples comparison for my dates (11/01-11/08 in 2020) & the next point level for hard to book views. YMMV on your preferred dates/bedrooms/view.

Studios:


*I’m assuming that competition for RIV SV studios will increase. I hedged that by buying a Fixed Week. A Fixed Week costs more points (130 in my case), but if I opt out of the FW I get all 130 points to use as normal. My FW point cost will never go up due to a reallocation. Some people are buying them for CCV as well, because the studio competition there is fierce.

Edit: @sethschroeder 's awesome guide: https://www.disboards.com/threads/all-about-fixed-weeks-riv-ccv-aul-vgf-poly-charts.3806985/

 

[sethschroeder]

1– will 9 days in a 2 br on-site villa have the same value to you in 50 years as it does now? Speaking for myself, I doubt I’ll be alive in 50 years. And even in 10 years, my vacation needs/wants won’t be the same as today.

Points you can be flexible and if the math was correct and after 9 years your investment money would have run out on the cash price I only need to really use the 2BR for the first 9 years after which mixing it up with longer 1BR/Studio stays, renting the points, or selling the contract.

As far as not being alive in 50 years that absolutely should impact your view of long term benefit.

2– Your return on investment would be much better with average stock market returns than by renting out points. Yes, renting out points “cuts your losses.” But it doesn’t equal the gains you could have otherwise.

Renting points is about punting certain years, making money over MFs (likely cover buy-in cost as well). Again though it goes back to if your money ran out from your investment side in year 9 renting points in years 20/24/29/40/ect is not a big deal because your investment account would have been $0.00

3– and of course, it ignores all the possibilities that are far more cost efficient than a 2br-on site-villa.

Which yes is always going to be the truth. DVC is never going to make sense if you are good staying off site most of the time.

Buying it as a long term investment to maximize profits— not a good idea

I don't think anyone is saying maximize profits. Instead its maximize savings or buying power for your Disney hotel stays over the next 10-50 years.

 

[RebelScum]

You will get the discount at the 300pt level even if you split the contracts into 3 100pt contracts.

I'd definitely split up that contract into 2 or 3 smaller contracts.

Agree - I own 200 RIV points and broke it up into 3 (100, 50, 50). the added cost was minimal.

 

[Turn the Page]

I see you throw over a random assertion of just investing. Then when asked to show any math you just say "well is it worth it?"

I could never do anything fun in life but guess what my vacation fund comes out of downsizing of house and living further from work/airport (which actually isn't a negative right now).

So again I ask you made the statement to just take the money and invest. I am saying how far can you get by investing that $65k+MFs if you are going to Disney anyways?

Just for clarity I would likely have an additional $100k on my home and $5k in taxes if I were to move. I instead forgo on the home location (love our house still) in exchange for being able to do things like DVC, trips to Europe, kids activities, ect.

That is basically our thought process too. We have multiple investment accounts, we own our home (not outright yet but a low mortgage payment and no plans to upgrade). Could we invest more than we do? Sure. But about 9% of our income goes in the 401k and a bit more in other acounts so i'mnot feeling guilty about a DVC purchase when we're going anyway.

 

[Sandisw]

Here’s my question on the economics of it. Riviera has such a high per point cost (unless you are able to get a great deal as an existing member with incentives right now), the point charts are high (requiring you buy a rather large number of points), and the maintenance fees are high. So, does buying Riviera really help you save on vacations to Disney? I’ve gone over the numbers and just can’t get it to work out in my head. I want it to, but I just can’t figure out how to justify buying here vs resale at a different resort.

The guide I spoke to made it sound dreadful to buy resale as the pool of the original 14 resorts is going to be shrinking and I’ll never get to stay at any new DVC resorts in the future.

I think it all depends on where you are staying and using for the comparison.

RIV will not be the cheapest. Heck, if it’s about that then don’t buy and stay values.

But, if you are staying deluxe then choose the resorts that make you happy. RIV was comparable to my resorts of choice with point charts...BLT and VGF...and BCV/BWV. I owned BWV but for the past few years struggled with SV even as an owner so took that out.

The extra years worked for my children as they love Disney and going and proud to now be owners as I bought with them.

In that respect, it works and even if I didn’t own elsewhere to sell if needed, I never used resale value as part of the equation for any purchase.

So, it comes down to what you want. Sounds like for you it may not be a good choice.