Revelations

[hokiefan33]

The prophecy claims of dispensational premilleniallists (the Left Behind crowd) are really based on overliteral interpretations of what's clearly symbolic material. (i.e. The Revelation to John, Ezekiel, Daniel.)

You make a factual claim here (that it is clearly symbolic). What is your proof that it is clearly symbolic, or is it just your interpretation of those books? I can make an equally factual claim that they are not symbolic. What is your basis, other than your own thoughts?

It's further mistranslated, misunderstood or misapplied by projection from the 1st century C.E. into the 21st century C.E. Dispensational premillenialism -- a.k.a. Christian Zionism -- is all the rage with most of the prophecy specialists teaching that chain of events such as we find in the Left Behind series. It is, however, the least traditional and least followed biblical interpretation.

What is your basis for saying that whatever you call it (you can use any "ism" you want to use) is "the least traditional and least followed biblical interpretation?" I'm not talking about any church's official position, b/c many people in those churches don't necessarily hold to their church's official position on many things. But do you have some survey that you base this off of?

The most biblical interpretation -- and the most traditional view of the Christian church since its founding -- is amillenialism, that is, non-millenialism. This is the belief that "the thousand years" is merely symbolic for the age of the success of Christianity. The 144,000 is also a symbolic number -- representing a number too great to be counted. But to take Revelation literally? Why? Psalm 90:4 reminds us, For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, or like a watch in the night. What's that -- 8 hours at most? A millenium is just a drop in the bucket against the background of eternity.

Wow. Again, what is your basis for saying that amillenialism (of which I know nobody who holds that view, nor have I ever) is the "most biblical interpretation?" Has that somewhere been declared the most biblical? Or is it just your interpretation of things. Most Baptist churches (the largest Protestant denomination) do NOT hold this belief, so if the largest denomination doesn't, how can you say it's the most traditional view? As to the 1,000 years being merely symbolic, which everyone loves to point to using the verse you quote, among others, why do you think so? Does that also mean that Jesus was in the tomb for 3,000 years, or 3 literal days? I mean, if a day is like a 1,000 years and a 1,000 years like a day, couldn't he have been in the grave for 3,000 years, under that theory? Do you believe that? Me neither. The Bible doesn't say that 1,000 years is ALWAYS like a day, or that a day is ALWAYS like 1,000 years, those Scriptures are used to illustrate eternity, as you said. That doesn't mean we can manipulate all references to time in the Bible to mean what we want them to mean.

The greatest majority of Christians around the world will have no truck nor trade with millenialism -- this includes the Roman Catholic Church with over 1 billion followers, Eastern Orthodoxy with 350 million followers. Add in Lutherans, the Anglican communion, the Reformed tradition, Presbyterians and probably a good deal more Protestant groups.

I won't comment much on this, other than to say that I really wouldn't lump most Protestant groups in here - they are vastly different than the other religions you are referencing. And "followers" doesn't necessarily mean people who know anything about the religion - lots of people will "claim" to be something by tradition, birth, race, etc... that they really know nothing about. Plus, a lot of these religions hold views on several different areas that are VASTLY different than Protestant views.

Now to set aside some arguments that millenialists often throw at amillenialists -- that is the greatest majority of Christians around the world -- we do believe in the Second Coming of Christ. In fact, we eagerly await that day. However, what we disagree about is the timetable of the millenialists.

Again, be careful about a factual, absolute statement, b/c I don't believe amillenialism is the view of the greatest majority of Christians, partly b/c I feel that your definition of who you would include as Christian and mine are vastly different.

However, this isn't good enough for dispensationalist premillenialists who transfer most of this prophecy from the 1st century C.E. to the 21st century C.E. and start thinking that Daniel's vision of things flying in the sky must be airplanes or helicopters. All biblical prophecy passages must be interpreted in their historical context and not projected two thousand years later. Why would prophecies exist that only mean something to us, thus rendering them completely meaningless to billions of Christians who have held to these prophecies for 2000 years?

Thus, are you saying that the entire book of Revelation is meaningless for us today, b/c it has already taken place? Doesn't that make Revelation non-applicable to us, which would then say that only parts of God's Word are applicable to us? Why would John have written it, and God ordained it to be included in His Word, if it weren't applicable to us today? Doesn't make sense.

The bad things that Jesus prophecied took place when Jerusalem was destroyed. Amillenialists believe that we can now look forward to the good things He predicted for believers. All of them, including the Rapture -- in which we do believe -- are a part of the great resurrection of the dead at the end of time when Jesus returns.

I would say that you DON'T believe in the rapture, but DO believe in the 2nd coming, b/c the rapture is an event PRIOR to the 2nd Coming, which you don't believe happens, b/c you believe it all happens at once, correct?

The group "Christians For Israel" is a Christian millenialist group that has repeatedly compared Islam to Nazism in their publications and deny that the God of Islam is the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism. Never mind that God, Allah, Adonai are all the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

I myself deny that the god of Islam and Judaism is the same as the God of the Bible. By definition of who each religion believes there god is and what they believe about their god, they CAN'T be! Islam does not hold to a triune God, but Christianity does - how could they possibly be the same, if one group denies the very essence of the nature of God, while the other acknowledges it? You can't. Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus, God's son (according to Christianity), was the Savior of the World (also according to Christianity). Yet the Christian Bible says that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If you deny that eternal life comes through Jesus alone, and Jesus is God's Son and part of the Trinity, how can a religion that doesn't believe that characteristic of God be the same as one which does? It can't. It's all nice to say that all gods are the same, just different names, so nobody's feelings get hurt, but it simply isn't doctrinely correct. At all. Ever. Period.

The true heart of Christianity -- the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- gets displaced in favour of amateurish forecasting of the future. What thinking person can believe in a god who would gleefully crash airliners into the ground because he has raptured Christian pilots out of their cockpits?

I don't displace the Gospel of Jesus at all. I still believe fully in it. This is simply a sidebar discussion. And it really doesn't matter what a "thinking" person believes about God, b/c we can't fully understand Him anyway, according to Scripture ("My ways are not your ways, and my thoughts are not your thoughts"). And I don't believe He "gleefully" crashes airliners at all - I believe it will pain Him greatly to make the world suffer. However, He has given all a chance for repentance, and informed the world what will happen if it doesn't. So God, being a righteous and just God, WILL judge the world. But I don't think He gets enjoyment out of it, b/c He loves us all.

 

[hokiefan33]

As for two ways to salvation -- one for the Jews and one for Christians -- what then of those who died without knowing Christ as their Lord and Saviour? Is Joseph condemned? David? Nathan? Jonathan?

How does the Bible say Abraham, for example, was justified? Was it through his belief in Jesus Christ as Savior? No, b/c Christ wasn't around yet. So how does it say he was justified? Romans 4:1-5 says this "What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, has found? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness."

Ah, so it is faith, and his belief in God, that was credited to Abraham. Not the Law that saved him, nor his works in trying to keep the Law (which nobody can do perfectly, which was the stated purpose of the Law). It was faith in God. Just the same as it is our faith in God, who sent Jesus to save us, that justifies us. No difference. And not a different way to salvation.

 

[hokiefan33]

I have no troubles with reading Holy Scripture hokiefan33 -- I do it quite often, in fact. I do have troubles with those who think it necessary than one must understand Revelation in a 21st century context when it was written for those living in seven specific 1st century churches in Asia Minor.

I didn't say you have trouble reading it. You said why try to understand it, which is what I responded to by saying that we are promised blessings in the beginning and end of Revelation for even reading it, much less trying to understand it. And again, if you don't think Revelation is applicable today, to a 21st century world, but was only applicable to a 1st century world, then we really can't say much more, b/c our beliefs are so different that it would be pointless.

As to understanding Revelation and your apparent belief that you're somehow in line for more blessings than I am simply because you think you understand the Revelation to John, you'll have to forgive me for my solidly Lutheran understanding of the Christian faith and my appreciation of the mystery of God.

I never said anywhere that I was in line for more blessings than you, or even that I understand everything there is to know about Revelation. But I have studied it in depth, and my beliefs vary greatly from yours, which also vary greatly from the beliefs of many others.

A very wise man -- without whom fundamentalist Christian Zionists would be nothing -- once wrote, I believe that I cannot come to my Lord Jesus Christ by my own intelligence or power.But the Holy Spirit called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, made me holy and kept me in the true faith, just as He calls, gathers together, enlightens and makes holy the whole Church on earth and keeps it with Jesus in the one, true faith. In this Church, He generously forgives each day every sin committed by me and by every believer. On the last day, He will raise me and all the dead from the grave. He will give eternal life to me and to all who believe in Christ. This is most certainly true!

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me one bit what Martin Luther said. He was a man, nothing more. I don't consider myself an "ist" of any kind - just one who believe in Jesus as the only way to salvation.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Ah, so it is faith, and his belief in God, that was credited to Abraham. Not the Law that saved him, nor his works in trying to keep the Law (which nobody can do perfectly, which was the stated purpose of the Law). It was faith in God. Just the same as it is our faith in God, who sent Jesus to save us, that justifies us. No difference. And not a different way to salvation.

There is no *salvation* in Judaism..There is no hell or eternal damnation in Judaism...The law does not save, you are right..There is no need for saving in Judaism..Abraham was not looking for Salvation
I'm not actually disputing your belief,,Just showing the other side

 

[ead79]

Royal Canadian, thank you for sharing your views on Revelation. While your views are very different from my own, I appreciate hearing different perspectives.

I would offer you one word of caution though. You seem to imply that those of us who believe in a more literal interpretation of Revelation are somehow confused. You make some absolute statement about things I don’t think you can be absolute about. For instance, things you say are clearly literal are not “clearly” one way or the other. What is often so unique about Scriptural prophecy is its ability to relate to the people at the time it was given and to believers thousands of years later as well.

For instance, the temple was indeed destroyed shortly after Jesus’ earthly ministry. However, Jesus also refers to the “abomination of desolation” in the temple (Mark 13:14), which we see as the Anti-Christ. Clearly he hasn’t desecrated the temple yet, so I believe this prophecy is two-fold (referring to both the destruction of the temple shortly after Jesus’ ministry and the desecration of it during the rule of the Anti-Christ.

I understand that you do not agree with my views on Revelation, but I think it’s important to not speak in absolutes about things that are not absolute. I would also question your statistics on the beliefs about the majority of Christians believing one way or another. Though I find that to be irrelevant since I don’t base my beliefs on what the majority of Christians believe. If the majority of Christians are wrong about something, then I think it’s a believer’s job to disagree.

 

[FionaLovesShrek]

It's a favourite of mine -- I suggest Romans 8:31-39

Nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That means that nothing you or I do or say, or don't do or don't say. We are not more powerful than God. Any sin we commit is not more powerful than God's desire to forgive us for our sins. There is nothing to fear -- for the price of the sacrifice has been paid by the blood of the lamb.

Sleep well.

Well said! One of my favorites too!

 

[cats7494]

Similarly, I get rather uncomfortable as a Lutheran when others start to place conditions on God's grace freely given for us through Jesus Christ. If can be such a nasty word when it comes to God's grace.

Very well said, RC. In all of your posts!
I was very hesitant to post on this thread until reading your posts. I share your views on the interpretation of Revelation and I certainly could not have stated my views as succinctly as you did!

I am a member of a United Methodist Church and my pastors believe as you do. In fact we recently had a study on the book “The Rapture Exposed” by Barbara R. Rossing, which talked about this topic in great detail.

I also agree that the Jewish people have their own special covenant with God.

As humans, how can we limit the beautiful grace of God by saying what he can and cannot do, who can or cannot be saved? This shows a common human arrogance.

 

[hokiefan33]

Very well said, RC. In all of your posts!
I was very hesitant to post on this thread until reading your posts. I share your views on the interpretation of Revelation and I certainly could not have stated my views as succinctly as you did!

I am a member of a United Methodist Church and my pastors believe as you do. In fact we recently had a study on the book “The Rapture Exposed” by Barbara R. Rossing, which talked about this topic in great detail.

I also agree that the Jewish people have their own special covenant with God.

As humans, how can we limit the beautiful grace of God by saying what he can and cannot do, who can or cannot be saved? This shows a common human arrogance.

Some believe pre-trib, some mid-trib, some post-trib, some amillennial. Just b/c I believe one way doesn't make my view the commonly held view, just like RC's or your views don't necessarily make them the commonly held views.

So I guess Jesus, though He said He died for the entire world, really actually meant the entire world EXCEPT for all Jews past, present and future, b/c they are covered under a special covenant and make it in regardless? Which I guess makes Jesus a liar, since He said the entire world but didn't mean it? Is that the case? Hmmm....

Who's limiting the grace of God? His grace is sufficient to save anyone - but it will only save them if they accept the gift of His Son. Jesus Himself tells us who will and who won't get saved - only through our belief in His death on the cross for us and accepting Him as our Savior can we have salvation. Why is it considered "arrogant" for a Christian to say what Christ Himself already said? Do you also consider Christ "arrogant" for having said who will and who won't be saved? I didn't think so - so when we affirm what He said, how are we any more "arrogant"?

 

[jimmiej]

I myself deny that the god of Islam and Judaism is the same as the God of the Bible. By definition of who each religion believes there god is and what they believe about their god, they CAN'T be! Islam does not hold to a triune God, but Christianity does - how could they possibly be the same, if one group denies the very essence of the nature of God, while the other acknowledges it? You can't. Judaism doesn't believe that Jesus, God's son (according to Christianity), was the Savior of the World (also according to Christianity). Yet the Christian Bible says that "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." If you deny that eternal life comes through Jesus alone, and Jesus is God's Son and part of the Trinity, how can a religion that doesn't believe that characteristic of God be the same as one which does? It can't. It's all nice to say that all gods are the same, just different names, so nobody's feelings get hurt, but it simply isn't doctrinely correct. At all. Ever. Period.

It seems like you are splitting hairs w/regards to the Jewish God. God the Father is the same for Jews & Christians. It's Jesus we disagree on.

hokiefan, I'm with you on everything else.

Our pastor says he's pan-millienast...he believes it will all "pan" out in the end!

 

[JennyMominRI]

So I guess Jesus, though He said He died for the entire world, really actually meant the entire world EXCEPT for all Jews past, present and future, b/c they are covered under a special covenant and make it in regardless? Which I guess makes Jesus a liar, since He said the entire world but didn't mean it? Is that the case? Hmmm....

?"?

Either he lied to the CHristians or he lied to the Jew,since he told Jews there was an everlasting l covenant many times,and all used the terms for all time.. There were no stipulations..And he states that he who is not circumsized is violating his everlasting covenant..Genesis 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

17:2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

17:3 And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying:

17:4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

17:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.

17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'

17:9 And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

17:10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

17:11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.

17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.

17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

17:14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'


and in Isaiah 105 among other places

105:7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.

105:8 He hath remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations;

105:9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac;

105:10 And He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant

 

[hokiefan33]

It seems like you are splitting hairs w/regards to the Jewish God. God the Father is the same for Jews & Christians. It's Jesus we disagree on.

hokiefan, I'm with you on everything else.

It might be considered splitting hairs, but I think it's real important.

Here's my thinking:

God = triune (Father, Son, Holy Spirit)
Jesus = God's Son (sent to die for us)
Jesus told us God sent Him to die for us (John 3:16, for example)
Therefore, belief in the Christian God means that you MUST believe that Jesus is His Son and is ALSO the Savior of the world! To deny that, denies what Jesus said in the NT, which denies God's intent (as Jesus told us what God did - "...He gave his only Son"), which denies God. The NT God for Christians is the exact same as the OT God - He never changed.

Jews don't believe Jesus is Savior. If you don't believe Jesus is Savior, but the Christian God said He sent His Son Jesus as Savior, you don't believe the Christian God. Doesn't matter whether the OT people KNEW about Jesus or not, the Christian God still said it! For example, the law of gravity wasn't written down in Christ's time. Does that mean gravity didn't exist, just b/c people couldn't read about it? No, it existed, they just didn't have the law of gravity written down. Gravity didn't suddenly "appear" with Newton, it was just verbalized. Same with Jesus. He always existed, whether the OT people saw him or not is irrelevant. To believe in the Christian God means to acknowledge ALL aspects of Him, including everything He is and says. So if He said He sent Jesus as our Savior, and a group (such as the Jews) don't believe that, do they really believe in the same God? They think they do, but they don't believe in key characteristics about Him.

 

[cats7494]

Hokiefan33,

I did not come to this thread to debate anyone and refuse to do so. I came to
express my beliefs...just as you have expressed yours. I hold what I believe to be true as you hold what you believe to be the truth. Take this as you may.

In all honestly, I do not believe we are capable of knowing the entirety of God and his will and will not know this until we reach heaven.

Blessings

 

[hokiefan33]

Hokiefan33,

I did not come to this thread to debate anyone and refuse to do so. I came to
express my beliefs...just as you have expressed yours. I hold what I believe to be true as you hold what you believe to be the truth. Take this as you may.

In all honestly, I do not believe we are capable of knowing the entirety of God and his will and will not know this until we reach heaven.

Blessings

That's fine. Debate or no debate, it really doesn't matter to me. I just responded with a few comments/questions based on what you wrote. Answer them, don't answer them, I'll be fine either way. You are welcome to your beliefs, and to agree/disagree with mine, just as I am welcome to the same. I do agree that we are not capable of fully understanding God, however I think with careful study there are things we can know that many people find confusing. But maybe I'll just wait and ask in Heaven!!

 

[hokiefan33]

Either he lied to the CHristians or he lied to the Jew,since he told Jews there was an everlasting l covenant many times,and all used the terms for all time.. There were no stipulations..And he states that he who is not circumsized is violating his everlasting covenant..Genesis 17

1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him: 'I am God Almighty; walk before Me, and be thou wholehearted.

17:2 And I will make My covenant between Me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.'

17:3 And Abram fell on his face; and God talked with him, saying:

17:4 'As for Me, behold, My covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be the father of a multitude of nations.

17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for the father of a multitude of nations have I made thee.

17:6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

17:7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee and to thy seed after thee.

17:8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land of thy sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.'

17:9 And God said unto Abraham: 'And as for thee, thou shalt keep My covenant, thou, and thy seed after thee throughout their generations.

17:10 This is My covenant, which ye shall keep, between Me and you and thy seed after thee: every male among you shall be circumcised.

17:11 And ye shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of a covenant betwixt Me and you.

17:12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every male throughout your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any foreigner, that is not of thy seed.

17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised; and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

17:14 And the uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.'


and in Isaiah 105 among other places

105:7 He is the Lord our God; His judgments are in all the earth.

105:8 He hath remembered His covenant for ever, the word which He commanded to a thousand generations;

105:9 The covenant which He made with Abraham, and His oath unto Isaac;

105:10 And He established it unto Jacob for a statute, to Israel for an everlasting covenant

Now JennyMom, you know that you being Jewish and me being Christian will NEVER agree on this point if we remain in our current religions, which I plan on doing, so unless you convert we have no hope of ever agreeing!

But think of this: the Jews were chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace or eternal glory. The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). Even Paul, writer of much of the NT and an extremely devout Jew before conversion, understood this. "All have sinned..." (Romans 3:23)

Bottom line, you believe you're OK b/c of the covenant, I believe that nobody is OK without accepting Jesus. I don't think you're right, but I pray that you are.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

Bottom line, you believe you're OK b/c of the covenant, I believe that nobody is OK without accepting Jesus. I don't think you're right, but I pray that you are.

The Apostle Paul would tend to agree with Jenny with his words from Romans 11:26-32

I'm not sure where you get your numbers from that would suggest that Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination in the world. Is this Southern Baptist you're claiming for? Can you provide statistics for those numbers? I do consider Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, Reformed, and even Baptists to be Christians. I also think you will find that the World Council of Churches also considers the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be both the God of Christians and Jews -- just as the Apostle Paul did.

I have also realized that there is little I can say -- regardless of which eminent biblical scholar I research -- that will convince you of what I believe.

 

[hokiefan33]

The Apostle Paul would tend to agree with Jenny with his words from Romans 11:26-32

I'm not sure where you get your numbers from that would suggest that Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination in the world. Is this Southern Baptist you're claiming for? Can you provide statistics for those numbers? I do consider Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, Presbyterians, Reformed, and even Baptists to be Christians. I also think you will find that the World Council of Churches also considers the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to be both the God of Christians and Jews -- just as the Apostle Paul did.

I have also realized that there is little I can say -- regardless of which eminent biblical scholar I research -- that will convince you of what I believe.

You are right on that - there is nothing you can say that will convince me. I don't lump Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans in the same as you do. Different beliefs, if you ask me. I could also care less what the WCofC thinks. I do believe that the God of A, I & J is the same God for Christians and Jews - I just don't believe that Jews believe in the same one, b/c they don't believe in attributes that I believe are absolutely essential. Sorry.

 

[RoyalCanadian]

You are right on that - there is nothing you can say that will convince me. I don't lump Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans in the same as you do. Different beliefs, if you ask me. I could also care less what the WCofC thinks. I do believe that the God of A, I & J is the same God for Christians and Jews - I just don't believe that Jews believe in the same one, b/c they don't believe in attributes that I believe are absolutely essential. Sorry.

No need to apologize Hokiefan -- just a need to come to an understanding that we each believe what we believe.

As for Lutherans, Anglicans and Roman Catholics -- I lump them together only because the Anglican Communion, the Vatican and the Lutheran World Federation lumps us together. Sadly, the LWF does not include many Lutherans in the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (they have a wonderful website discussing the questions and answers surrounding the whole millenialist debate, so I just discovered) and the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. As you no doubt have seen evidenced in the history of schism in the Baptist church, not all Lutherans have the same understanding of all aspects of the faith. Just as you and I read the same Bible (OK - probably a different translation, but still God's Word) and interpret what we read there with different glasses; the ELCIC/ELCA, WELS and LCMS interpret the foundational teachings of the Protetant reformers in different ways.

I look forward to the day when we bring all our gifts together.

 

[JennyMominRI]

Now JennyMom, you know that you being Jewish and me being Christian will NEVER agree on this point if we remain in our current religions, which I plan on doing, so unless you convert we have no hope of ever agreeing!

But think of this: the Jews were chosen for special service and worship, and to enjoy special privileges and benefits, civil and religious; though they were not chosen to special grace or eternal glory. The Jews were chosen to be a blessing to all the nations of the earth (Genesis 12). Even Paul, writer of much of the NT and an extremely devout Jew before conversion, understood this. "All have sinned..." (Romans 3:23)

Bottom line, you believe you're OK b/c of the covenant, I believe that nobody is OK without accepting Jesus. I don't think you're right, but I pray that you are.

Hokie..Just let me say that I appreciate that you take my posts as they are meant,and not as a personal attck on your religious views.Appreciate that we have always been able to discuss our views without taking things personally..I really respect that

 

[jimmiej]

The Apostle Paul would tend to agree with Jenny with his words from Romans 11:26-32

These are Paul's words just prior to the passage you quote RC:

*Insertions & bold are mine.

Romans11

17If some of the branches have been broken off (unbelieving Jews), and you (Gentiles), though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root (Jews), but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches (Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (This sounds like the last 2000 years) 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This sounds to me like the Jews (most, all ) will be saved at the 2nd coming of Christ. Abraham was deemed righteous because of his faithfulness & belief. Why wouldn't faithful Jews be given the chance to trust Christ?

 

[hokiefan33]

These are Paul's words just prior to the passage you quote RC:

*Insertions & bold are mine.

Romans11

17If some of the branches have been broken off (unbelieving Jews), and you (Gentiles), though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root (Jews), but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches (Jews), be grafted into their own olive tree!

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. (This sounds like the last 2000 years) 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."
28As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

This sounds to me like the Jews (most, all ) will be saved at the 2nd coming of Christ. Abraham was deemed righteous because of his faithfulness & belief. Why wouldn't faithful Jews be given the chance to trust Christ?

Here's a few more:

Romans 3:9-18 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written:
"There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
"Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

Romans 3:29-30 Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Romans 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Romans 4:9-10 Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!

Romans 4:13-16 It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. For if those who live by law are heirs, faith has no value and the promise is worthless, because law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

Romans 9:23-26 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? As he says in Hosea:
"I will call them 'my people' who are not my people;
and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one," and,
"It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them,
'You are not my people,'
they will be called 'sons of the living God.' "

Romans 9:30-33 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written:
"See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall,
and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Romans 10:4 Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Romans 10:12-13 there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Just some food for thought...