Revelations

hiwaygal said:
Suffice to say that I have a hard time reading the KJV of the Bible and the way it's written (old style English, translated from Hebrew, I think), the "Left Behind" series put the prophecies of the Bible (as quoted from the KJV) into a scenario I (and apparently millions of others) could better understand.

Here's a major problem with the "Left Behind" franchise -- it's completely unbiblical. The purpose of the "Left Behind" franchise is the same as any other franchise. They are out to make money -- not educate people about the Christian faith and what basic Christian doctrine has to say about the Apocalypse. There are no passages in the Bible that come close to suggesting that some will be "left behind" with a 2nd chance to get into heaven. It's quite clear in the Bible -- the rapture happens, those who are followers of Christ are taken up, those who aren't are left. There is no 2nd chance on the last day. (BTW -- the Jews are taken up. They have the irrevocable promise of the covenant that God made with Abraham. The Apostle Paul reminds us of this tidy litte fact in Romans.)

Instead of relying on "Left Behind", pick yourself up a Bible that you can understand. The King James Version was translated into English in 1611 so that the people of the day could read it. It was never intended to be the only translation for all times. There are so many scholarly translations available that are accessible to the people today. I truly wonder about those religious leaders who place such stumbling blocks before the people of God as to suggest that the only possible translation that one can use in Church is the King James Version. Such religious leaders should beware -- they would be better to tie millstones around their own necks.
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Here's a major problem with the "Left Behind" franchise -- it's completely unbiblical. The purpose of the "Left Behind" franchise is the same as any other franchise. They are out to make money -- not educate people about the Christian faith and what basic Christian doctrine has to say about the Apocalypse. There are no passages in the Bible that come close to suggesting that some will be "left behind" with a 2nd chance to get into heaven. It's quite clear in the Bible -- the rapture happens, those who are followers of Christ are taken up, those who aren't are left. There is no 2nd chance on the last day. (BTW -- the Jews are taken up. They have the irrevocable promise of the covenant that God made with Abraham. The Apostle Paul reminds us of this tidy litte fact in Romans.)

Instead of relying on "Left Behind", pick yourself up a Bible that you can understand. The King James Version was translated into English in 1611 so that the people of the day could read it. It was never intended to be the only translation for all times. There are so many scholarly translations available that are accessible to the people today. I truly wonder about those religious leaders who place such stumbling blocks before the people of God as to suggest that the only possible translation that one can use in Church is the King James Version. Such religious leaders should beware -- they would be better to tie millstones around their own necks.

I do not rely "solely" on the "Left Behind" series. I guess from my posts that is what many people would assume. I also disagree that it is "unbiblical", but that is my opinion. Tim LaHaye (one of the authors of the series) has a desire to teach people about the Bible prophecies as he sees them. Check out his website: http://www.timlahaye.com/about_ministry/index.php3?p=bio&section=Biography

I concede that the "franchise" may indeed be in the business to make money, but I could argue that for many television evangelists as well. And if they believe the money they make does some good for their beliefs, well, that's not something I really care about in the great scheme of things.

My religious "base" comes from what I was taught as a child. And I do remember there were several sources (Ernest Angley being just one) of that doctrine that taught there is a "second chance", that at some point during the Tribulation years, people are given many opportunities to choose between God and the Anti-Christ. If they choose God, they are then let into the kingdom of heaven when they die. Unfortunately, they are not "raptured" (as I was taught to believe) but they have to die first.

Again, I think it comes down to opinions of faith. Obviously my opinion is shared by some and not by others...and that's okay.

And I have known for many years that the Jewish people are God's chosen. :)
 
RoyalCanadian said:
The word "Revelation" isn't about the revealing of Jesus Christ. Christ was revealed through the incarnation at his birth.

The title is more properly "The Revelation of John" -- that is, the revelation the apostle John received about the Apocalypse (FYI -- the Greek word for "Apocalypse" just happens to be the Greek title of the book.)

As to trying to understand it -- why? I prefer to enjoy and celebrate God's mystery instead of pretending it's all black and white.

If it isn't about revealing Christ, then why does Rev 1:1 say "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John," ? :confused3
 
hiwaygal,

I see what you are saying about the LB series. I read several of them.
I think they take a look at how all of these things could come to pass that we are told about in Revelation. Sometimes it is just as simple as "oh, so that is how that could all be played out" type of thing. For example, it speaks of things happening in the Middle East and all the world being able to see it happen. When my grandfather (RIP) was young there was no way that verse of scripture made sense. But with TV and all, it will happen now. I mean we watch hurricanes happen and wars happen and things like that now. Years ago, that was impossible. I think the LB series just showed us a scenerio that made it all very believable and possible in our minds.
A lot of people don't read that book of the Bible. It should remain a mystery or it is scary or whatever. I think it is there for a reason and we are supposed to know and that god does reveal Himself through that book. plus it ties into so many other books in the Bible, how can one not read it?
 

Buckalew11,

I agree that the "Left Behind" series isn't necessarily a "road map" of what WILL happen, but it does just as you said...it allows us to understand how the world events described in the Bible COULD happen. And somehow it made it all more "real" to me (it gave me nightmares).

I think the books are another tool in the toolbox that we can choose to help us understand our beliefs...or not! :)
 
RoyalCanadian said:
The word "Revelation" isn't about the revealing of Jesus Christ. Christ was revealed through the incarnation at his birth.

The title is more properly "The Revelation of John" -- that is, the revelation the apostle John received about the Apocalypse (FYI -- the Greek word for "Apocalypse" just happens to be the Greek title of the book.)

As to trying to understand it -- why? I prefer to enjoy and celebrate God's mystery instead of pretending it's all black and white.
Actually, let me quote directly from the Bible for a reply to the first portion of your statement(s). This is from Revelation 1:1-2 "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ." So actually, it IS the revelation of Jesus Christ, as written by and revealed to John. Be careful that what you say matches what Scripture actually says.

As to the 2nd part of your statement (why read and try to understand it), I'll again quote from Scripture, this time Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." If you want to forego the blessings, that is fine - just means more for me!
 
RoyalCanadian said:
Here's a major problem with the "Left Behind" franchise -- it's completely unbiblical. The purpose of the "Left Behind" franchise is the same as any other franchise. They are out to make money -- not educate people about the Christian faith and what basic Christian doctrine has to say about the Apocalypse. There are no passages in the Bible that come close to suggesting that some will be "left behind" with a 2nd chance to get into heaven. It's quite clear in the Bible -- the rapture happens, those who are followers of Christ are taken up, those who aren't are left. There is no 2nd chance on the last day. (BTW -- the Jews are taken up. They have the irrevocable promise of the covenant that God made with Abraham. The Apostle Paul reminds us of this tidy litte fact in Romans.)

Instead of relying on "Left Behind", pick yourself up a Bible that you can understand. The King James Version was translated into English in 1611 so that the people of the day could read it. It was never intended to be the only translation for all times. There are so many scholarly translations available that are accessible to the people today. I truly wonder about those religious leaders who place such stumbling blocks before the people of God as to suggest that the only possible translation that one can use in Church is the King James Version. Such religious leaders should beware -- they would be better to tie millstones around their own necks.
Wow. Clearly some misunderstandings here. Why do you say "Left Behind" is completely unbiblical? By "completely", you then imply that NOTHING in them is at all biblical. Are you sure?

I do believe it is quite clear in the Bible - the rapture happens, those who are followers of Christ are taken up, those who aren't are left. But you then basically say that nobody can or will be saved during the Tribulation Period. What about the 144,000 (Jews)? What about the 2 Witnesses? What about the 3 angels? Revelation is pretty clear that the purpose of these is to offer salvation. Why do you not think so? What is your Scriptural basis? I don't believe there's a 2nd chance on the last day - at that point it most certainly IS too late! But during the Trib. period, as difficult as it will be, there is the opportunity for salvation. As to the Jews, sure they're taken up - if they have accepted Jesus as their Savior, just like you or I need to. Apart from that, THEY DO NOT MAKE IT IN. There are not 2 ways to salvation - 1 for the Jews and 1 for the Gentiles. I'd be curious to know why you think that, unless perhaps your Jewish?
 
Rella Bella said:
To get back to the OP's question;
the End Times are coming... the Bible says soon...
and honestly for anyone of us the End could be today!
So whether or not it is the End Times...
we'd better be prepared for them now.



Excuse me, but isn't the 'Left Behind' Series a work of fiction!!! How can you learn the Bible from fiction... it's just the author(s) opinion of Bible prophecy. Are you comfortable resting your faith on opinion?

Now just to enliven our discussion:
since so many of you have mentioned the 'Rapture'. I'm sure you all know the word is not mentioned in the Bible... and even to get the concept of it you have to stretch the meaning of certain Bible passages. But did you know the whole concept of a 'Rapture' was never heard of in any part of the church until a woman named Mary McDonald in England gave a prophecy that included the idea... this happend somewhere around the 1850's. Before that everyone (some still do) believed that Christ's return would be just that 'Christ's Return'. So I guess it depends on how much faith you have in prophecy doesn't it??

"Talk amongst yourselves"
The phrase "Main Street Parade" isn't in the Bible either, but that doesn't mean that one doesn't occur. It's pretty tough to use an argument of silence to make your point on this one, b/c there are a LOT of words that AREN'T mentioned in the Bible!
 
FionaLovesShrek said:
If it isn't about revealing Christ, then why does Rev 1:1 say "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John," ? :confused3
Not much response from RoyalCanadian on this one, huh? :confused3

It's tough to debate the Bible when you don't use the Bible to debate, but use your own personal thoughts...
 
Please don't get a war started about The Left Behind series, this thread was closed before becasue of fighting so don't casuse it to close again. Rella Bella was jsut sharing her opinion with the series. We don't need to debate wether they are good to read or not.
 
Actually, I believe Royal Canadian is a Luthern minister, if I am correct.

Although he and I have some different opinions, I think he does use his Bible & not just his feelings.

And he is on more at night, maybe than daytime. He isn't here real often, either.
 
Epcot83 said:
Please don't get a war started about The Left Behind series, this thread was closed before becasue of fighting so don't casuse it to close again. Rella Bella was jsut sharing her opinion with the series. We don't need to debate wether they are good to read or not.


Rella Bella and I have talked via PM...everything's cool! :sunny:
 
Buckalew11 said:
Actually, I believe Royal Canadian is a Luthern minister, if I am correct.

Although he and I have some different opinions, I think he does use his Bible & not just his feelings.

And he is on more at night, maybe than daytime. He isn't here real often, either.
I am sure he does some of the time, but I just don't see how what he said is supported by any Scripture, do you? If so, what?
 
hokiefan33 said:
The phrase "Main Street Parade" isn't in the Bible either, but that doesn't mean that one doesn't occur. It's pretty tough to use an argument of silence to make your point on this one, b/c there are a LOT of words that AREN'T mentioned in the Bible!
Point taken.
 
My apologies to hokie fan for maintaining office hours at a Church without an internet connection. Allow me to redeem myself with this consideration.

The prophecy claims of dispensational premilleniallists (the Left Behind crowd) are really based on overliteral interpretations of what's clearly symbolic material. (i.e. The Revelation to John, Ezekiel, Daniel.)

It's further mistranslated, misunderstood or misapplied by projection from the 1st century C.E. into the 21st century C.E. Dispensational premillenialism -- a.k.a. Christian Zionism -- is all the rage with most of the prophecy specialists teaching that chain of events such as we find in the Left Behind series. It is, however, the least traditional and least followed biblical interpretation. Serious biblical scholars would also argue that it is the most biblically accurate interpretation of the events as described in the Revelation to John.

The most biblical interpretation -- and the most traditional view of the Christian church since its founding -- is amillenialism, that is, non-millenialism. This is the belief that "the thousand years" is merely symbolic for the age of the success of Christianity. The 144,000 is also a symbolic number -- representing a number too great to be counted. But to take Revelation literally? Why? Psalm 90:4 reminds us, For a thousand years in your sight are like yesterday when it is past, or like a watch in the night. What's that -- 8 hours at most? A millenium is just a drop in the bucket against the background of eternity.

The greatest majority of Christians around the world will have no truck nor trade with millenialism -- this includes the Roman Catholic Church with over 1 billion followers, Eastern Orthodoxy with 350 million followers. Add in Lutherans, the Anglican communion, the Reformed tradition, Presbyterians and probably a good deal more Protestant groups.

The Dispensationalist rapture theology has been around only since 1830 when the young Scotswoman Margaret McDonald claimed to have a revelation. A traveling evangelist named J.N. Darby took it on as his own theology and marketed it rather successfully to the 19th century American church while an American preacher named Cyrus Scofield deliberately edited a Bible edition to amplify Darby's theology. McDonald, Darby and Scofield must have figured the Christian church had it all wrong during its first eighteen centuries.

Now to set aside some arguments that millenialists often throw at amillenialists -- that is the greatest majority of Christians around the world -- we do believe in the Second Coming of Christ. In fact, we eagerly await that day. However, what we disagree about is the timetable of the millenialists.

Most millenialists and prophecy purveyors will start with the prophecies of Jesus Christ himself and claim they will soon take place, probably in our generation. Take for instance the prophecies Christ made on the Mount of Olives which end, this generation will not pass away until all these things are accomplished. Jesus said that around 33 C.E. What the prophecy franchisees forget is that these things have already taken place. These prophecies -- and many prophecies, for that matter -- all have to do with the destruction of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple. For Jews, this would mean the end of the world -- because there was no concept of God's dwelling with the people without the Temple. Jerusalem was indeed destroyed 37 years after Jesus made his prophecies that not one stone would rest upon another -- this happened in 70 C.E. Perfect fulfillment of prophecy.

However, this isn't good enough for dispensationalist premillenialists who transfer most of this prophecy from the 1st century C.E. to the 21st century C.E. and start thinking that Daniel's vision of things flying in the sky must be airplanes or helicopters. All biblical prophecy passages must be interpreted in their historical context and not projected two thousand years later. Why would prophecies exist that only mean something to us, thus rendering them completely meaningless to billions of Christians who have held to these prophecies for 2000 years?

The bad things that Jesus prophecied took place when Jerusalem was destroyed. Amillenialists believe that we can now look forward to the good things He predicted for believers. All of them, including the Rapture -- in which we do believe -- are a part of the great resurrection of the dead at the end of time when Jesus returns. The Church has had it right all along in the Creed, I believe in the resurrection of the body and the life everlasting. Amen.

Amillenialism is pure, sublime and simple and without the additional clutter from overactive imaginations in the last two centuries.

I truly believe that while Tim Lahaye and his millenialist colleagues have the best interests of Christianity at heart, they are doing more damage than benefit to the Christian church. People get so hung up on apocalyptic predictions that they panic and prepare for the end when there is no end. Let's not forget the lunacy that took place toward the close of 1999. There were some Christian leaders who warned believers about "the great Y2K menace." People really thought the end of the world was about to happen because a human measurement of time in existence for less than 2 millenia had reached a multiple of 1000.

There are some violently psychotic "Christian" millenialist groups who are totally pro-Israel and anti-Arab. I emphasize "Christian" in that way, because the majority of Christians in the Holy Land are Arab descendants of the earliest Christians. They are being pushed out of the Holy Land by these millenialist groups who are so excited about getting as many Jews as possible into the Holy Land to assist in the Second Coming of Christ. They have raised money to fund illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank and bought up land inhabited by Arab Christians since time immemorial in Jerusalem. Some are so psychotic that they are actively raising money to build a new Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (on the Temple Mount, of course -- never mind that the third most holy site in Islam is there right now) so that the AntiChrist can sit inside it and supposedly bring on the last days and Jesus' triumphant return.

The group "Christians For Israel" is a Christian millenialist group that has repeatedly compared Islam to Nazism in their publications and deny that the God of Islam is the God of Christianity and the God of Judaism. Never mind that God, Allah, Adonai are all the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. "Christians for Israel" raises money to return all Jews to Israel to hasten the Second Coming. By doing so they also accomplish Hitler's dream of making Europe Judenrein. As though Jesus needs us to help him along!

The true heart of Christianity -- the Gospel of Jesus Christ -- gets displaced in favour of amateurish forecasting of the future. What thinking person can believe in a god who would gleefully crash airliners into the ground because he has raptured Christian pilots out of their cockpits?

It is truly sad because these prophecy prognosticators -- most of whom cannot agree amongst themselves -- have massive resources at their disposal. Consequently it is their message that is often heard and many non-Christians wrongly assume that their bizarre interpretations of biblical prophecy are the norm for our Christian faith, when they are clearly not.
 
hokiefan33 said:
I'd be curious to know why you think that, unless perhaps your Jewish?

This is so often much more effective when asked in German.

You will have to excuse me -- as half of my personal library is kept at home and the other half is kept in the office at Church. The home study half is currently in boxes and contains all my reference books used to refute the arguments of the Watchtower Society indoctrinees known as Jehovah's Witnesses. There is some information in those books about the millenialist arguments, as well. The other half is currently out of my immediate grasp on the bookshelves of my office at Church.

Included in that library is the annotated New Revised Standard Version which highlights the reference from Paul's Letter to the Christian Church at Rome that God's covenant with the Jews would be honoured. As for two ways to salvation -- one for the Jews and one for Christians -- what then of those who died without knowing Christ as their Lord and Saviour? Is Joseph condemned? David? Nathan? Jonathan?

Similarly, I get rather uncomfortable as a Lutheran when others start to place conditions on God's grace freely given for us through Jesus Christ. If can be such a nasty word when it comes to God's grace.
 
hokiefan33 said:
As to the 2nd part of your statement (why read and try to understand it), I'll again quote from Scripture, this time Revelation 1:3 "Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near." If you want to forego the blessings, that is fine - just means more for me!

I have no troubles with reading Holy Scripture hokiefan33 -- I do it quite often, in fact. I do have troubles with those who think it necessary than one must understand Revelation in a 21st century context when it was written for those living in seven specific 1st century churches in Asia Minor.

As to understanding Revelation and your apparent belief that you're somehow in line for more blessings than I am simply because you think you understand the Revelation to John, you'll have to forgive me for my solidly Lutheran understanding of the Christian faith and my appreciation of the mystery of God. A very wise man -- without whom fundamentalist Christian Zionists would be nothing -- once wrote, I believe that I cannot come to my Lord Jesus Christ by my own intelligence or power.But the Holy Spirit called me by the Gospel, enlightened me with His gifts, made me holy and kept me in the true faith, just as He calls, gathers together, enlightens and makes holy the whole Church on earth and keeps it with Jesus in the one, true faith. In this Church, He generously forgives each day every sin committed by me and by every believer. On the last day, He will raise me and all the dead from the grave. He will give eternal life to me and to all who believe in Christ. This is most certainly true!

The wonderful thing about the greatest majority of Christians is that we do not believe it is entirely necessary to know everything there is to possibly know about God. There are some things we simply cannot possibly understand -- the Holy Trinity, the Real Presence of Christ in the bread and wine of Holy Communion, the Incarnation, the Resurrection, etc. We call these things mystery :confused3 and we choose to celebrate and preserve that mystery in the worship of our congregations. It is wonderful to be surrounded by that mystery each time I preside at the Eucharist, hold an infant about to be baptized into the one true faith, and at the end when I entrust one more of God's chosen ones into his loving care until that time when we are joined together with all the saints arrayed in white. Who knows -- there might even be 144,000 of us. :rotfl2:
 
I have complete and total faith in God in good times and in bad. I am ready to get what's coming to me, whatever it is.
Me and my kids are at the mercy of God now and forever. That's the way I live and that is what I teach them.
I don't know if the end is near but I am going to be reading the Bible tonight before I go to sleep. :angel:

It is odd to see this thread now because my DD (23) told me just this morning that she thinks the world is ending . I responded by saying "Does that mean I can max out a credit card?"

Anyway, whatever will be will be.....right? :cloud9:
 
denisenh said:
I don't know if the end is near but I am going to be reading the Bible tonight before I go to sleep.

It's a favourite of mine -- I suggest Romans 8:31-39

Nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. That means that nothing you or I do or say, or don't do or don't say. We are not more powerful than God. Any sin we commit is not more powerful than God's desire to forgive us for our sins. There is nothing to fear -- for the price of the sacrifice has been paid by the blood of the lamb.

Sleep well.
 
Very nice, RC.

I read a lot tonight. I read about Joseph (of the amazing technicolor dreamcoat) and the promise that he made to his dad regarding when and where to bury him.

I read something that reminded me of George W.'s saying: "Either you are with us or against us." ugh. I turned the page rapidly. (I am only human, and I just can't like him.)

I read the "Our Father" prayer. I read about Moses, which I love.

There is a lot of interesting stories and sayings/verses.

DH just brought our little girl to the ER as she is having an asthma attack. She hasn't had one in years. I came to the computer to check our insurance info, not that it matters much. She needs to breathe whether the ER visit is covered or not.
So, I will go read some more in The Book of Romans.
 

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