RESALE POLICY CHANGE!

[skier_pete]

As someone else said, social media can be vicious. These are a few of the "milder" ones I have seen since this happened.You're a second class citizen as you said because of your bad decisions to buy resale and not directly. You got what you deserved . Resale should never have had any benefits.

Actually, sounds more like sour grapes that those that paid half the price are reaping the same benefits. I could see why people feel this way. Can you imagine - and this may really happen to someone - paying $170 a point somewhere and because you didn't book at your VGF home resort at 11 months you had to book elsewhere, and then you run into someone that paid $77 a point at SSR, and they ARE staying at your VGF home resort? I could see where sour grapes could come from.

Actually there is some new info that if your resales contract was NOT RECORDED before 4/4/16, you will not have the incidental benefits. Simply entering into ROFR does not grandfather you in. This was disclosed to all the brokers a day after the initial statement from DVC.

TO me, that's the dirty pool here. I said it earlier in the thread - they COULD have pulled these benefits away from all resale people, and they chose not to, but in saying someone in the process of buying doesn't get the benefit is really dirty pool. Those people entered in a contract believing one thing - and beyond where they could cancel what they are getting changed.

Really the RESALE companies should do right and offer people the ability to back out without penalty. Unfortunately I don't think you'll see that happen either.

What DVC is saying here is that the member extras are not courtesies being extended to people who have committed to visiting Disney regularly. They are saying that anything other than the raw timeshare room benefits is being paid for by active sales.

When they eventually stop building new DVC resorts (which given the Poly problems may be last year) the extras are gone for everyone in 3 years.

I don't think you will ever see that happen. DVC is a major cash cow. And all they got to do now is make it another 20 years or so and THEN think about the cash they will rake in. In 2042 - they can RESELL all these resorts for probably $300 a point.

But - I think they will always give benefits to the new buyers as long as DVC is the cash cow that it is. It's a BIG part of the sales pitch. Discounts and special member events. Now it will be even a bigger part - if someone mentions that they could buy cheaper on resale - well then Disney brings out the big guns - well, if you buy resale, sure you might save a little in the short run, but look at all these benefits you pass up! I know people in this thread say that this isn't going to work, but I guarantee it will. There's still tons of people before this that looked at the two options and said "no - I'm buying direct". This has GOT to swing some people in favor of Disney. Even if it's only 10% of all re-sale buyers, that's a big number adding to direct buys, and it's a hit on the resale market.

I just simply don't buy this has ZERO effect on resale in the short term.

But regardless, the "your extras are not guaranteed" clearly applies to everyone, not just resale buyers.

Dude- that's what's been being said all along. Maybe not in the sales pitch, but it's ALL over everything to read. NOT guaranteed to ANYONE. But that doesn't mean their gonna take it away. What more scares me is they might someday decide to take it away from ALL resale buyers. The only GOOD news out of this announcement is that they didn't do that. And the fact that they didn't means they probably won't. But again doesn't guarantee it.

 

[CarolMN]

DVC paid for the the member nights.

Sammie - Did you mean DVD paid for the Member Nights? I'm about 99.999% positive that this is the case.

For those who do not know, DVD is Disney Vacation Development. This is the entity that sells and markets the DVC resorts. This entity receives no money from Member annual dues.

DVC is the Disney Vacation Club and that is the entity that operates & maintains the timeshare resorts. DVC is funded by member dues.

As drusba posted earlier, it would not be legal (according to Florida law) for DVC to pay for any "Membership Extras" if those extras expressly exclude a subset of the members who fund DVC.

DVD can fund whatever discounts/events it wants and invite whoever it wants to participate in them.

 

[skier_pete]

DVD can fund whatever discounts/events it wants and invite whoever it wants to participate in them.

This is very, very true. DVD could start a "1000 point club" and have exclusive events for members with more points.

For those that are saying "this has to be illegal" just know, DVD and DVC know 100% what is legal or not. They aren't doing this without knowing it is completely within the rules.

 

[robinb]

I read the exact opposite. I know for the 2011 deval, the benefits were passed down to heirs.

Reliable source about 2 pages ago says benefits remain in contracts that have them in the case of inheritance.

Thanks! What about gifts? Do we know about that? I may want to gift my membership to my DD in a few years (and let her pay the dues ). Will she also get benefits?

 

[DebbieB]

Actually, sounds more like sour grapes that those that paid half the price are reaping the same benefits. I could see why people feel this way. Can you imagine - and this may really happen to someone - paying $170 a point somewhere and because you didn't book at your VGF home resort at 11 months you had to book elsewhere, and then you run into someone that paid $77 a point at SSR, and they ARE staying at your VGF home resort? I could see where sour grapes could come from.

Actually that could be said for direct buyers too. I paid $65 a point for BWV in 1999 and have stayed at VGF and VGC with those points, staying at Poly next month. A resale buyer would probably pay around $100 for BWV points, so they are not paying less than I did and I've had extra years of use.

The 4 month priority for home resort owners takes care of that I think. If you don't take advantage of the window, you can't complain when other resort owners take a reservation.

 

[DebbieB]

This is very, very true. DVD could start a "1000 point club" and have exclusive events for members with more points.

For those that are saying "this has to be illegal" just know, DVD and DVC know 100% what is legal or not. They aren't doing this without knowing it is completely within the rules.

I totally expect that to happen. And to be honest, doesn't bother me. It's like when the super frequent flyers get the free first class upgrade even though they may have paid less than me for their ticket.

 

[maburke]

Can you think of any company which DOESN'T market its products as being "different"?

Suave -- it's the same, only cheaper.

 

[keishashadow]

I totally expect that to happen. And to be honest, doesn't bother me. It's like when the super frequent flyers get the free first class upgrade even though they may have paid less than me for their ticket.

speaking as 'a minnow' who doesn't drop much $$$$ in Vegas, reminds me of how the "whales" (high rollers) get totally comped if they spend thousands, but even they have to produce every trip.

I don't see DVC letting even 1000 point members resting on their laurels and getting high $ gimmies, moreso what have you done for us lately and incentives for new add-ons.

they may have special yearly perks for those who have large holdings but more of the extra FP per trip type of thing that doesn't cost them much.

 

[JimMIA]

That is an awfully broad generalization. Do you have any sources to back that up? I'm very good at handling my membership and I know and have met folks that make me look remedial.

If you read through these several threads on this policy change, you will see ample evidence of people who have very limited understanding of DVC, including some who don't seem to get life itself.

For example, some complain that Disney is "discriminating" against them because DVD is giving preferential treatment to their customers that they are not providing to those who have not purchased one point from Disney! Wow, I sure hope those folks don't get bumped off a flight because some frequent flyer needs their seat!

OF COURSE giving your own customers preferential treatment over those who don't buy from you is "discrimination." It's perfectly legal discrimination, and sound business practice. It's called "differentiation" -- making your product more attractive to potential buyers than other options -- and every company in the world does it. Differentiation is why you wear the clothes you wear, send your kids to the school they attend, drive the car you drive, live in the neighborhood you live in, etc, etc, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that we don't feel bad for those who got caught in the middle of this change. Most of us here do feel bad for those who lost something. And it doesn't mean we think Disney handled this well. They didn't.

 

[DebbieB]

If you read through these several threads on this policy change, you will see ample evidence of people who have very limited understanding of DVC, including some who don't seem to get life itself.

For example, some complain that Disney is "discriminating" against them because DVD is giving preferential treatment to their customers that they are not providing to those who have not purchased one point from Disney! Wow, I sure hope those folks don't get bumped off a flight because some frequent flyer needs their seat!

OF COURSE giving your own customers preferential treatment over those who don't buy from you is "discrimination." It's perfectly legal discrimination, and sound business practice. It's called "differentiation" -- making your product more attractive to potential buyers than other options -- and every company in the world does it. Differentiation is why you wear the clothes you wear, send your kids to the school they attend, drive the car you drive, live in the neighborhood you live in, etc, etc, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that we don't feel bad for those who got caught in the middle of this change. Most of us here do feel bad for those who lost something. And it doesn't mean we think Disney handled this well. They didn't.

The thing about that is they did get the money for those points originally, they aren't totally out in the cold like if you bought an outfit at Macys instead of Penneys.

 

[drusba]

As a 2012 purchaser it doesn't impact me, and I see everyone who bought direct feeling confident.

I don't see a reason to feel confident.

What DVC is saying here is that the member extras are not courtesies being extended to people who have committed to visiting Disney regularly. They are saying that anything other than the raw timeshare room benefits is being paid for by active sales.

When they eventually stop building new DVC resorts (which given the Poly problems may be last year) the extras are gone for everyone in 3 years. Maybe they'll find some land in California they can build new resorts on or something, but I think everyone needs to expect it's just a matter of time until everyone loses the extras. Disney doesn't view the additional revenue they receive from giving owners benefits (and encouraging more visits, good will, and future commitment) as significant enough to make up for the cost. That doesn't make much sense to me, but they're the ones with the spreadsheet. I think in their current financial situation, though, they're not looking beyond the next FY.

Now maybe they plan on transitioning to exercising a lot of ROFR and continuing to resell the existing resorts. Maybe they're going to announce that the current contracts have an end date but the resorts will continue and they'll just roll through selling contracts with a new end date. Who knows.

But regardless, the "your extras are not guaranteed" clearly applies to everyone, not just resale buyers.

Now once they find a new COO the picture could entirely change. Extras could be returned just as easily. Better benefits could even be delivered. But I won't hold my breath, and they've made it perfectly clear they can go away for everyone.

Bruce

What you say is what is apparently lost on those who say that what is happening is fine because it does not affect them or say this is what the "evil" resale purchasers deserve. Then you have the group that says Disney is a business and it should do everything it can to make more profits. But let's look at that "everything it can." In the last six years, while inflation was below 2% per year, the price per point has gone up 50% to 60%. Moreover, points needed per night for the newer resorts increased significantly. The combination of price increases and point increases makes the total increase about 75% in the last six years. Moreover, Disney created a new member-adverse model for its timeshares by adding extremely expensive bungalows (and soon cabins) that it knows most of those who will puchase DVC cannot possibly afford, but they allow Disney the best of all worlds at the expense of members by providing units for which the members will forever pay the operation and maintenance costs while giving Disney the ability to rent those units most of the time and the rent collected is free of any of those costs.

Now DVD has apparently reached a stage where sales are not as good as it expected. Is its solution to say to itself, "Gosh, maybe raising prices and points per night so much in a short period of time wasn't the right idea and if we really want to sell these things we should start offerring real incentives to increase sales"? DVD probably could have significantly increased sales that way and still made a lot of money. Obviously, it did not choose that solution. Instead, it decided that the best solution was to use its power of control over DVC to screw members and destroy to the extent possible the resale market, so it it could then market the new sales by highly promoting the belief that new purchasers will get all these great incidental benefits that resale purchasers cannot get, and, of course, have its sales personnel create the inaccurate impression that all those great incidental benefits will really be around for those new purchasers forever despite DVC reserving the right to change them. In other words, Disney's method of doing "everything it can" to increase profits was to use its singular power to destroy competition and screw members so it can overhype its product to new purchasers. That to me is not what a company with a long term view toward having successful and expanding customer relations while making large profits would do. Instead, that is something that comes from the Martin Shkreli school of business.

 

[southerngirl528]

If you read through these several threads on this policy change, you will see ample evidence of people who have very limited understanding of DVC, including some who don't seem to get life itself.

For example, some complain that Disney is "discriminating" against them because DVD is giving preferential treatment to their customers that they are not providing to those who have not purchased one point from Disney! Wow, I sure hope those folks don't get bumped off a flight because some frequent flyer needs their seat!

OF COURSE giving your own customers preferential treatment over those who don't buy from you is "discrimination." It's perfectly legal discrimination, and sound business practice. It's called "differentiation" -- making your product more attractive to potential buyers than other options -- and every company in the world does it. Differentiation is why you wear the clothes you wear, send your kids to the school they attend, drive the car you drive, live in the neighborhood you live in, etc, etc, etc.

Now, that doesn't mean that we don't feel bad for those who got caught in the middle of this change. Most of us here do feel bad for those who lost something. And it doesn't mean we think Disney handled this well. They didn't.

Good post and excellent points, JimMIA. Absolutely agree as well.

 

[robinb]

Moreover, Disney created a new member-adverse model for its timeshares by adding extremely expensive bungalows (and soon cabins) that it knows most of those who will puchase DVC cannot possibly afford, but they allow Disney the best of all worlds at the expense of members by providing units for which the members will forever pay the operation and maintenance costs while giving Disney the ability to rent those units most of the time and the rent collected is free of any of those costs.

Doesn't DVC get something out of the bungalow cash rentals to cover the expenses?

 

[drusba]

Doesn't DVC get something out of the bungalow cash rentals to cover the expenses?

The answer to your question is generally no except for about 2.5% of the Poly budget. The cash received will pay for the daily cleaning cost not otherwise provided to DVC members. Also, while Disney is selling new units, it is picking up maintenance and repair costs for unsold units. Moreover, the breakage rental income will go first to offset dues up to an amount equalling 2.5% of the Poly annual budget, which is only a small portion of the rental income Disney will actually receive. Once you reach the point where most everything is sold, the maintenace, repair and refurb costs for those bungalows and cabins will come from dues, with that small 2.5% offset for dues, even if the members were to never use them and they are only rented out by Disney.

 

[dvcdream4fld]

Should the forum be split up into DVC (Disney vacation club) and Disney timeshare club (DTC) members? New DTC should not have access to comment on benefits that they don't get.

 

[southerngirl528]

Should the forum be split up into DVC (Disney vacation club) and Disney timeshare club (DTC) members? New DTC should not have access to comment on benefits that they don't get.

You meant that to be funny, yes? If so, thanks for the laugh.

If you or anyone else has a contract in place that allows you to call MS and/or log-in and make a points reservation at a DVC resort, THEN BY GEORGE, YOU ARE A MEMBER. Having access to book DVC resorts on points is what I bought way back in the early 90's, and that is what is been sold all this time. The entire time without fail. The legal verbiage has been in place since my very first contract when DVC was scarcely a year old that perks/benefits/discounts are NEVER promised and can come and go. All the chest-beating in the world will not change that and no one has a legal recourse as badly as they may want it.

I feel for those that were in process, but as others have eloquently stated, any current buyer had to know there were already resales restrictions in place. And if they did their homework they would have known (and if they used a broker, that broker should have reminded them) that changes on these "extras" is never promised and can change.

 

[corpcomp]

OK So I just got the letter, read a bunch of the posts and still have no idea what exactly DVC is cutting going forward other than the generic Membership experiences and discounts. 90 of my 300 points are resale purchases so I know those will not work for the cruises based on the original restriction several years ago. Big deal. And with a kid in college, not spending money on more points.

 

[skier_pete]

The thing about that is they did get the money for those points originally, they aren't totally out in the cold like if you bought an outfit at Macys instead of Penneys.

And the other thing is - as I've said elsewhere it's a move that's done to drive people to Direct by - and I am sure it will work to a degree. Myself - I would NEVER buy direct at those prices. It never made financial sense. All this would maybe have done is stop me from buying resale.

 

[bumbershoot]

Can you imagine - and this may really happen to someone - paying $170 a point somewhere and because you didn't book at your VGF home resort at 11 months you had to book elsewhere, and then you run into someone that paid $77 a point at SSR, and they ARE staying at your VGF home resort? I could see where sour grapes could come from.

Of course it can happen.

We bought Bay Lake in '09. Someone buying now is paying a lot more than I did! Should they be outraged if I got a room they wanted b/c I was up earlier than them? Gosh I hope not.

We flew first class a few weeks ago, using miles that DH earned but his work paid for. The person next to DH probably paid for his flight directly. Should he feel outraged at the way our seats were paid for? (actually I'm pretty sure he had higher status because our seats got all changed around at the last minute, and he was plunked down in what was supposed to my son's seat, so at some point he or his company paid for him to be on Delta more often than DH was paid to do LOL)

I got a hotel for 80/night for a dance convention AND we got a good breakfast thrown in. Others paid 82 but booked 5 minutes after the breakfast promo and had to pay for it (they should have listened to me but they waited!). Others didn't listen to me at all and paid 100+ without breakfast. Others stayed another mile away from the dance convention and paid what I paid and got no food.

Prices are different. No one should feel sour grapes at any of that. I don't feel outraged that some were smart enough to buy when DVC first came out; I wasn't even aware of DVC at the time! Gosh, around that time my mom was living in Miami, I visited family in Orlando, and never once even thought of visiting WDW, that's how far out of my mind it was. There are wishes, but no sour grapes about it.

The 4 month priority for home resort owners takes care of that I think. If you don't take advantage of the window, you can't complain when other resort owners take a reservation.

Ayep.

Now DVD has apparently reached a stage where sales are not as good as it expected. Is its solution to say to itself, "Gosh, maybe raising prices and points per night so much in a short period of time wasn't the right idea and if we really want to sell these things we should start offerring real incentives to increase sales"? DVD probably could have significantly increased sales that way and still made a lot of money.

I like the way you're thinking about this.

That to me is not what a company with a long term view toward having successful and expanding customer relations while making large profits would do.

Agreed.

 

[DebbieB]

And the other thing is - as I've said elsewhere it's a move that's done to drive people to Direct by - and I am sure it will work to a degree. Myself - I would NEVER buy direct at those prices. It never made financial sense. All this would maybe have done is stop me from buying resale.

I used to say the only thing that would make me want to sell my BWV is if they had a DVC at GF. When it finally came true, it was far too expensive and too many points per night. Didn't make sense. You can't even buy direct at VGF right now, from what I understand. I used my BWV points to stay there 2 years ago and loved it but wouldn't buy points. Same with VGC, I'm 4 for 4 at 7 months. I'll roll the dice, if I don't get it, oh well.