Rental Rates/Concerns

[Dean]

Originally posted by Desperado
That's all well and good and a more reasonble post than your earlier one, my contention is with your erroneous statements

What statements are erroneous? It's appears painfully obvious to me that many people bought into DVC with a number of assumptions. Many of these are wrong and some fall into the area around this issue of renting. We see it all the time here and elsewhere from newbies and long term owners alike in all areas of DVC. We see posts not uncommonly to the effect "I didn't even think one could rent out DVC points". It's also obvious that some have made assumptions of what is "reasonable" from a renting standpoint. Some of these may be reasonable assumptions asnd others are definitely not. IMO, any assumption that includes motive per se, price, time of year or simple venu of renting (ebay) in the definition is invalid and not reasonable. That's my opinion, no more and no less. Any definition must be factual, reproduceable and be able to be applied without direct knowledge of the person involved. It must be a definition that does not overlap with the "noncommercial" renting. Even one who rents for a single time can use ebay and anyone in their right mind will get as much for their rental as possible unless there is some other motive to give someone a price break.

While we can disagree on the the issue of of enforceability, and we do, I can tell you the components I think could be reaasonably defined as commercial under the POS. Certainly anyone who hangs out a sign and buys radios and newspaper ads would fall into that category. Anything associated with another related business, such as a DVC resale broker renting out points through their busines. For individual members, it'd have to be a pattern of renting over multiple years with multiple rentals and a large number of points involved. Exactly what these would be would have to be published and documented and only then would they apply going forward. And it'd have to apply to EVERYONE who rented, including DVC. Again, MY opinion.

I am alwasy amazed and amused when people decide what they want to happen, what they like and don't like, and then try to fit the rules to their desires. This probably happens for DVC members in this arena of this discussion more than any other. I'd guess smoking and room occupancy are pretty close. I can understand when someone is upset seeing the time they couldn't get for rent on a BBS or ebay. Still, that's the system, period. The only real way to control this is to bar ANY rentals, which would be hard to do but could be done with a vote of the membership. The problem is that such a move would increase dues and eliminate most of the exchange options like DC, CC, DCL and Adventurere collection. It would also reduce the value of the contracts significantly. I guess we can't have our cake and eat it too, you take the good with the bad, etc.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Dean
...Again, MY opinion....

Agreed

...The only real way to control this is to bar ANY rentals...

Completely wrong. I'm surprised you would make such an inaccurate statement. DVC board could easily establish levels of acceptable rentals, or simply pursue the folks who are excessively renting for profit by auctioning off prime holiday weeks more that personally using thier DVC membership under the commercial use clause. As you are aware of having been discussed in previous threads, those abusing the DVC ownership by using points as a for-profit rental business could receive progressive series of actions to deter their actions through notification, warnings, sanctions, etc. Taking on DVC through court action would certainly elliminate any intended profit. Claiming the only way to address it is to bar any rentals is just not correct. Those abusing the system are easily identifiable. Some of us here could name screen names of those over the line (which of course I wouldn't do). I presume DVC knows who those folks are as well, as we have seen posted here some are being watched concerning thier actions.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Desperado
Completely wrong. I'm surprised you would make such an inaccurate statement. DVC board could easily establish levels of acceptable rentals, or simply pursue the folks who are excessively renting for profit by auctioning off prime holiday weeks more that personally using thier DVC membership under the commercial use clause. As you are aware of having been discussed in previous threads, those abusing the DVC ownership by using points as a for-profit rental business could receive progressive series of actions to deter their actions through notification, warnings, sanctions, etc. Taking on DVC through court action would certainly elliminate any intended profit. Claiming the only way to address it is to bar any rentals is just not correct. Those abusing the system are easily identifiable. Some of us here could name screen names of those over the line (which of course I wouldn't do). I presume DVC knows who those folks are as well, as we have seen posted here some are being watched concerning thier actions.

I stand by my statement that says that the only way to truly prevent any rentals that some would consider "commercial" is to stop all rentals, period. Anything else would be a game of cat and mouse at best. There's no doubt Disney can be the proverbial 600# Gorilla as you alluded to, that is a totally different topic. I also stand by an earlier statement I've made several times that "many of those wishing to stop many of the rentals are involved in wishful thinking".

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Dean
I stand by my statement that says that the only way to truly prevent any rentals that some would consider "commercial" is to stop all rentals, period.

I stand by my statement, that's complete baloney.

To clarify my position so it is not distorted, I am not interested in "stopping many of the rentals", I'm fine with occasional renting. My only complaint is with for-profit rental practices regularly auctioning off prime holiday weeks for the biggest $$ return. The idea that DVC could not address those abusing rental practices if the Board choose to and still allow legitimate rentals is absurd.

I'm glad the rental option is available. I just hate to see it abused.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by Desperado
I stand by my statement, that's complete baloney.

To clarify my position so it is not distorted, I am not interested in "stopping many of the rentals", I'm fine with occasional renting. My only complaint is with for-profit rental practices regularly auctioning off prime holiday weeks for the biggest $$ return. The idea that DVC could not address those abusing rental practices if the Board choose to and still allow legitimate rentals is absurd.

Your opinion of course, nothing more or less.

 

[anniet]

This kind of reminds me of issues that sports arenas have with Season ticket holders auctioning off their seasons ticket for a profit. It's been well broadcast here that when tickets go on e-bay the season ticketholders seats get pulled and that person is NEVER allowed to hold season tickets again.

Now, I know for sure that season ticket holders can and do sell their tickets for their value to friends/family and maybe others, but selling them for profit is not allowed, closely monitored on internet venues and the offender is punished when they attempt it.

DVC could implement such a system if they wanted to.

I don't think they want to, so until they have a problem with it, the rest of us just have to live with it and take the bad with the good.

I'm not saying I like it.

I'm saying I'm tired of complaining about it.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by Dean
Your opinion of course, nothing more or less.

 

[Desperado]

Originally posted by anniet
...Now, I know for sure that season ticket holders can and do sell their tickets for their value to friends/family and maybe others, but selling them for profit is not allowed, closely monitored on internet venues and the offender is punished when they attempt it.

DVC could implement such a system if they wanted to.

Exactly.

 

[PamOKW]

Originally posted by anniet
I don't think they want to, so until they have a problem with it, the rest of us just have to live with it and take the bad with the good.

I'm not saying I like it.

I'm saying I'm tired of complaining about it.

Exactly my sentiments. I was also very oppossed to people renting points out on the Internet and wouldn't do it myself. However, my friends were told by their guide that was an option they could use if they weren't going to use their points. He then went on to tell them that is what he did -- he couldn't use his points one year, decided to book the Christmas Week since that would give him the highest return, and then rented that week. He actually made this suggestion as a selling point. So, if DVC is not only "winking" at the practice but promoting it to new members, I see no reason why I should let my points go unused in the future. I have and will continue to rent points if I am unable to use them any other way until DVC decides to end the practice for all.

 

[anniet]

Originally posted by PamOKW
my friends were told by their guide that was an option they could use if they weren't going to use their points. He then went on to tell them that is what he did -- he couldn't use his points one year, decided to book the Christmas Week since that would give him the highest return, and then rented that week. He actually made this suggestion as a selling point. So, if DVC is not only "winking" at the practice but promoting it to new members, I see no reason why I should let my points go unused in the future. I have and will continue to rent points if I am unable to use them any other way until DVC decides to end the practice for all.

This thought has crossed my mind many times- especially when you see how quickly DVC resorts are going up. I'm sure Disney's current managment team is saying "Why should we bend over backwards to fill our rooms when we can get these DVC suckers to do it for us?"

They get their money either way and that's pretty much all they seem to care about.

 

[Dean]

Originally posted by anniet
This kind of reminds me of issues that sports arenas have with Season ticket holders auctioning off their seasons ticket for a profit. It's been well broadcast here that when tickets go on e-bay the season ticketholders seats get pulled and that person is NEVER allowed to hold season tickets again.

Now, I know for sure that season ticket holders can and do sell their tickets for their value to friends/family and maybe others, but selling them for profit is not allowed, closely monitored on internet venues and the offender is punished when they attempt it.

Scalping tickets and renting a condo are two totally different things. Many states have made it illegal to scalp tickets and this applies to everyone. Well at least once the price has been set by an official venue such as a team. There are ways around this but at least the rules apply to everyone. And the teams, etc have the right to contractuall obligate the ticket holders to agree to a certain set of rules, as long as those rules are legal otherwise. In the case of DVC they have set up two rules. One is that members can rent, it's spelled out in several places in the POS. The other is that "commercial use" is not allowed. Unfortunately they did not define commercial use. There is also case law, including in FL, that says that any rules on renting a condo must apply to all parties equally. It is my assertion that this applies to timeshare as well and that it would apply to Disney as well as the members.

And I agree that Disney's lack of any official discussion in this direction has answered the question of how much they care about it, or NOT.

 

[pumpkinboy]

Originally posted by Desperado
snip...Those abusing the system are easily identifiable. Some of us here could name screen names of those over the line (which of course I wouldn't do)...snip

Next time you see someone attempting to profiteer by reserving desirable times and renting them out, you can always report the post to the moderator. That may just send them to TuG or EBay

 

[FLYNZ4]

Originally posted by anniet
Now, I know for sure that season ticket holders can and do sell their tickets for their value to friends/family and maybe others, but selling them for profit is not allowed, closely monitored on internet venues and the offender is punished when they attempt it.

DVC could implement such a system if they wanted to.

I do not sure this is possible while still observing the agreement that you signed with DVD when you joined.

As far as I can tell, Dean is technically and legally correct in his arguments. Disney does apply a different set of restrictions for corporations and individual owners. Furthermore... Disney has put a limit on how many points that an individual can own (2000 home resort; 5000 total) specifically to limit commercial use.

Since renting is clearly called out as a benefit of ownership... and since they made an assertion regarding the total number of points, I believe that implies a threshold of commercial use... I would think Disney would not have grounds to limit someone from renting their credits unless they were renting out more than the equivalent of 5000 points per year.

As much as I would hate to see prime times being auctioned on E-bay when I, as an owner wanted to make a reservation... I do not think there is much that can be done to stop it.

/Jim

 

[anniet]

Originally posted by Desperado
Agreed

I presume DVC knows who those folks are as well, as we have seen posted here some are being watched concerning thier actions.

Where is smiley man when you need him?

 

[anniet]

A DVC member made over 40 reservations during peak/holiday periods over the last 2 years and collected over $30,000. for the rentals?




Just wondering.

 

[ClarabelleCow]

yup, but how could you proove it?

 

[BCVOwner2002]

Count me in! I didn't think DVC owners were supposed to profit from their points. I wonder if my response from this thread will be erased too! Annmarie

 

[OurDogCisco]

Did you know in Florida that you must pay tax on rental income? What's their number????

 

[BCVOwner2002]

Do you think they actually claim all of that as rental income?

 

[RuthnPaul]

This person must have a tremendous amount of points to be able to book even a studio almost every other week over a 2-year period. Wonder if the seller ever stays at DVD himself/herself???

And, yes, I consider this using your points to make profit.

RuthnPaul