Refusing the FINGER SCAN??

[DisMN]

I think there are more privacy issues with having to show a DL & ID than giving Disney the finger.

Truly Cass, you are one of the DISboards hidden gems. I always enjoy your posts, especially ones like this!

 

[Chester's Mum]

I wouldn't bother, I think they are more interested in separating me from my cash, than collecting personal information. How many millions of people pass through those turnstiles every year? That would have to be some database.

 

[goofie4goofy]

OK you guys got me very curious so I googled some info and found this article from 9/06......you may find this very interesting. Make sure you watch the video and you decide for yourself.



http://newsinitiative.org/story/2006/09/01/walt_disney_world_the_governments

 

[I'mNoPrince]

OK you guys got me very curious so I googled some info and found this article from 9/06......you may find this very interesting. Make sure you watch the video and you decide for yourself.



http://newsinitiative.org/story/2006/09/01/walt_disney_world_the_governments

This states just what it is . A link for this person to this ticket. and thats it.

If I go and pay cash for a multiday ticket and finger scan thats all they have is my finger scan and my cash no other info at all. Yes they have video of the gates and can track it as well but whats the big deal.

And yes you don't have to go in just light any other place that has metal detectors or that have you show ID to get into.

 

[tjmw2727]

Basically I have a few comments related.

It is unfortunate but the main reason to have the scan is to prevent fraud. Disney used to use UV flourescent inks but some tour companies made duplicates of the stamps, would send a busload of people to one park. One person would collect all the tivckets and go back out. Another grouo, using the same touring company, would then go to a different park about an hour later and they would stamp everyone with the "stamp of the day" and reuse the tickets.

Also, based on the pricing structure Disney wants to make sure that the tickets are not transferred.

I work as a Greeter/Ticket Sales/Guest Services. If I have someone come to my turnstile and tell me they do not want to do the finger scan I will ask to see both their ticket and a photo ID. If the ticket already has a name on it, and it matches the photo ID, I will then run the ticket through the turnstile with a biometric override. If there is no name on the ticket I will immediately write the name that is on the ID, in ink, in an open area on the stripe side of the ticket and then run the ticket through the reader with a biometric override.

In case anyone wants to hear from "the other end of the turnstyle" this is exactly what happend with us in Feburary!

We were on a business convention off site and one of my dh's business partners did not want her fingers scanned. No way, no how She was a litte embarassing to be with IMHO, just a bit over the top but in any case refused the finger scan. The first CM was great, totally understanding and empathised with her. He told her to simply remember her id for the remainder of the trip, wrote her name from the ID onto her pass with a sharpie and let her in. We had convention tickets so the tickets didn't have a name printed on them.

The next couple days, including those entering a different park and park hopping she just got out her ID and presented that instead. All of the CM's simply checked her ID against the name on the pass and let her through.

Tj

 

[NewEnglandDisney]

I wouldn't bother, I think they are more interested in separating me from my cash, than collecting personal information. How many millions of people pass through those turnstiles every year? That would have to be some database.

Not to mention the fact that gets lost in the discussion : it's useless data.

Let's pretend it actually did take fingerprints - IT DOES NOT - but let's pretend it did. What use is that to Disney? Is the FBI going to come knock down your door saying, "On November 1st, at 11:02AM, someone with YOUR fingerprints entered the Magic Kingdom! What do you have to say for yourself!" LOL, it's not like it's Vegas.

It's surprising to me that some people take such a stand on this ("I refuse!") because while in a traditional sense it sounds all evil, the truth is in order to get to Disney most of us have to give over just about every scrid of personal information we have. The only thing I don't have to share to get to Disney is my SS# - the people at the airport, and at the resort, see my License with my license #, home address, etc. They have my credit card information (several, in fact). They know who I'm traveling with, via what method. If they want to assign the bones in my finger a random interger on my way in, more power to 'em. That's the very, very least of what you give over just to get there.

I guard my privacy zealously - for instance, today I went to Best Buy and bought a DVD. The girl asked me for my phone number. I said, "Oh, I'm paying in cash." Girl : "Well, we'd still like your phone number sir." Me : "I'm sorry, I don't give out my phone number." Girl : "Oh, we just want it in case there is something wrong with this," (pointing to DVD). I nod and smile - she wasn't getting it out of me. If there is a problem with the DVD, that's why I have a reciept, LOL.

So I don't willy-nilly give my info away - but the fact is with the finger scans, you aren't. Disney is generating random data based on the length of the bones your finger. That is the most useless data ever. The truth is, if someone wants your real fingerprints, they can follow you around for five minutes and find them on any number of things you touch. If Disney somehow was evil and wanted your fingerprints, they could get them (unless you wear rubber gloves your entire time at the Resort). But they don't. Their motive is simple : they don't want people cheating them by sharing passes. The law also jives with that (since it's illegal in FL anyway).

NED

 

[dpuck1998]

Not to mention the fact that gets lost in the discussion : it's useless data.

Let's pretend it actually did take fingerprints - IT DOES NOT - but let's pretend it did. What use is that to Disney? Is the FBI going to come knock down your door saying, "On November 1st, at 11:02AM, someone with YOUR fingerprints entered the Magic Kingdom! What do you have to say for yourself!" LOL, it's not like it's Vegas.

It's surprising to me that some people take such a stand on this ("I refuse!") because while in a traditional sense it sounds all evil, the truth is in order to get to Disney most of us have to give over just about every scrid of personal information we have. The only thing I don't have to share to get to Disney is my SS# - the people at the airport, and at the resort, see my License with my license #, home address, etc. They have my credit card information (several, in fact). They know who I'm traveling with, via what method. If they want to assign the bones in my finger a random interger on my way in, more power to 'em. That's the very, very least of what you give over just to get there.

I guard my privacy zealously - for instance, today I went to Best Buy and bought a DVD. The girl asked me for my phone number. I said, "Oh, I'm paying in cash." Girl : "Well, we'd still like your phone number sir." Me : "I'm sorry, I don't give out my phone number." Girl : "Oh, we just want it in case there is something wrong with this," (pointing to DVD). I nod and smile - she wasn't getting it out of me. If there is a problem with the DVD, that's why I have a reciept, LOL.

So I don't willy-nilly give my info away - but the fact is with the finger scans, you aren't. Disney is generating random data based on the length of the bones your finger. That is the most useless data ever. The truth is, if someone wants your real fingerprints, they can follow you around for five minutes and find them on any number of things you touch. If Disney somehow was evil and wanted your fingerprints, they could get them (unless you wear rubber gloves your entire time at the Resort). But they don't. Their motive is simple : they don't want people cheating them by sharing passes. The law also jives with that (since it's illegal in FL anyway).

NED

All good points, but where do we draw the line? Will you let them retina scan? I guess everyones line is different so thats why some choose to show ID instead.

 

[robinb]

>>> give the finger.
Your middle finger will work in the one finger scanners provided you use that finger all the time until the ticket is used up.

This really cracks me up! Use your middle finger, LOL.

 

[tlev]

All good points, but where do we draw the line? Will you let them retina scan? I guess everyones line is different so thats why some choose to show ID instead.

I don't care if they retina scan, take my fingerprint, whatever, if it helps keep ticket prices down, I'm all for it. It amazes me that people have no problem forking over their credit card to every waiter that serves them, (who promptly disappears for 10 min with your card and could run up a million dollars on HSN, or at least keep the number and exp. date for future use, before he comes back), then feel violated from a scan of their finger size. The main point hear should be, that if people would just follow the very simple rules Disney sets down for using their tickets, none of this would be necessary! Once again, another example of the few ruining it for the many.

 

[Cookie55]

Just a quick comment on security :

You only see about 1% of it on-stage. It is intentionally kept from you, to both preserve the magic and to keep bad people from knowing the details.

If you think the only security at Disney is that which is visible to you, you'd be sorely mistaken.

NED

I know a little bit about this and all I can say is that NED is 100% correct.

 

[dpuck1998]

I don't care if they retina scan, take my fingerprint, whatever, if it helps keep ticket prices down, I'm all for it. It amazes me that people have no problem forking over their credit card to every waiter that serves them, (who promptly disappears for 10 min with your card and could run up a million dollars on HSN, or at least keep the number and exp. date for future use, before he comes back), then feel violated from a scan of their finger size. The main point hear should be, that if people would just follow the very simple rules Disney sets down for using their tickets, none of this would be necessary! Once again, another example of the few ruining it for the many.

what did that have to do with my point? I could care less if I had to pee in a cup myself, but everyone has a different level of comfort. Just because your okay with it doesn't mean someone else should be. There are other ways of tracking tickets...not to mention ways around any of these "systems". Someone will always find a way to scam anything.

 

[ransom]

I don't care if they retina scan, take my fingerprint, whatever, if it helps keep ticket prices down, I'm all for it. It amazes me that people have no problem forking over their credit card to every waiter that serves them, (who promptly disappears for 10 min with your card and could run up a million dollars on HSN, or at least keep the number and exp. date for future use, before he comes back), then feel violated from a scan of their finger size.

The difference is that if someone steals your credit card, you can get a new credit card with a different number. With a bit more trouble, you can even get a new social security number if necessary. But you can't be issued new fingerprints or retinal pattern. That's what makes people jumpy about this stuff.

And for the record:
1) Disney's official word is that they are no longer measuring bone sizes, unlike what some folks (not you) are saying here. They now take an image of your fingerprint, measure the distances between some of the points in your fingerprint, store those measurements, and toss out the image of your fingerprint. They say the measurements are also tossed out after 30 days.

2) I don't have enough of a problem with that to refuse the finger scan, but I understand why some folks are concerned about the movement from the old system to the new one, and with the fact that the manufacturer of the current system says changing it to actually use fingerprints and retain them in the system would require only a trivial change.

 

[ReallyFunMom]

DH is a germaphobe and walks up with DL out for them to see, card is scaned and CM hits override, no problems. I'm always a little worried we'll have trouble with getting fastpasses later but so far, no problems.

 

[seashoreCM]

, it would bother me if my actual finger print were stored in a computer to the same extent that it bothers me when my signature is stored in computers when I sign those electronic pads when making purchases via credit card. When anything that is used to prove my identity is stored anywhere, it bothers me, because I don't want anyone other than me to be able to prove he is me!.

Those electronic pads make notoriously bad copies of signatures at best and worse when (not if) they malfunction...

The first time I remember using a signature pad was at Disney Quest. The occasion was not while buying anything but rather in their Create Zone where we were sitting down for a mini-seminar and trying to draw Mickey using one of those pads (which was quite large). The image on the pad jerked all over the place while I was just trying to draw three ordinary circles.

Therefore those pad captured signatures could be used in favor of the person who allegedly signed them but could not be used against said person.

1) Disney's official word is that they are no longer measuring bone sizes, unlike what some folks (not you) are saying here. They now take an image of your fingerprint, measure the distances between some of the points in your fingerprint, store those measurements, and toss out the image of your fingerprint. They say the measurements are also tossed out after 30 days.

30 days after the ticket has expired or all the admissions used.

If the scanner rejects me because hands are really dirty will the CM tell me to go to the washroom and say something like "the scanner has to be kept clean..."?

 

[Kick Save]

The difference is that if someone steals your credit card, you can get a new credit card with a different number. With a bit more trouble, you can even get a new social security number if necessary. But you can't be issued new fingerprints or retinal pattern. That's what makes people jumpy about this stuff.

But that's the thing: What would ANYONE, especially Disney, do with your "stolen" fingerprint? I can think of PLENTY of things to do with a stolen credit card number, but my fingerprint? They're mine and they're non-transferable. (Non-transferable because Disney has them matched to my AP, which I signed. )

 

[ransom]

But that's the thing: What would ANYONE, especially Disney, do with your "stolen" fingerprint? I can think of PLENTY of things to do with a stolen credit card number, but my fingerprint? They're mine and they're non-transferable. (Non-transferable because Disney has them matched to my AP, which I signed. )

Let's say at some point in the future everything is purchased by scanning your retina (or fingerprint, or hand print, or DNA, or whatever). "The system" - banks, credit card companies, retail outlets, etc. - then uses that as a key to unlock your account and transfer the money.

So what's to stop someone from using that digitized scan (whether it's been transformed into measurements or not doesn't matter, since whatever it's been transformed into is what the system needs to "unlock" your account) to loot your account? And how would you prove it wasn't you doing that?

Long ago, you could say, "Well, that's not my signature on your receipt!" And you'd be able to prove it, since unless you were a very important and/or wealthy person, it's highly unlikely anyone would take the time to learn how to sign your signature just like you do.

But in the age of digital data, when signatures are digital, it's very easy to copy someone's "signature." And it's very easy to do that on a mass scale, and steal relatively small amounts of money from a relatively large population and end up with huge amounts of money.

Now, there are ways around this. I'm not saying there aren't. And I believe that eventually we'll come up with a system no more prone to fraud than the old system we had with credit card imprint machines, carbon paper, and signatures 20 years ago.

But until we do, there will be new opportunities for fraud every time the system of authentication and identification is changed. In order to minimize one's risk during such times, it's best to keep one's data as private as possible. And that most definitely includes data about one's biometrics.

That's the way I see it anyway. Does that put me in the tinfoil hat crowd?

 

[dpuck1998]

Funny you mention that, I was just in a store this weekend where you can use your finger to pay for your transaction instead of a credit card.

 

[goofie4goofy]

After reading some information about all this, I have come to the conclusion we are slowly giving up our privacy and our freedoms. It is done a little at a time.....cameras on streets, no smoking in bars, removal of trans fats, satellite services in cars (I know my car has 8 satellites tracking it) fingerprint scans....
Yes it is said it is for "our own good" and is in place not only to protect theft of identity and services but for our health and safety as well. Little by little we are giving up our freedom. We are slowly being able to be traced, traced, followed, surveyed. It's not a matter of anyone having anything to hide as most people don't. It's about the slow process of our rights being taken away. No longer can I go to a bar with friends, smoke a few butts have a few buffalo wings fried in fat.....no they may not be good choices health wise, but that is MY CHOICE. I believe these changes cannot be done over night as most people would rebel but it is being done inch by inch and we are all told it is OK. Are we really??? It's the "I don't care" attitude that they are banking on....but really think about it, not just the fingerprint scanners to get into a theme park, but the entire slow porcess of what is happening to us as a nation. We are slowly being controled and we are getting closer to the embedded micro chip technology.

You do have the right to not have your fingerprint scanned at WDW. Just bring a drivers licence as ID.

 

[tlev]

what did that have to do with my point? I could care less if I had to pee in a cup myself, but everyone has a different level of comfort. Just because your okay with it doesn't mean someone else should be. There are other ways of tracking tickets...not to mention ways around any of these "systems". Someone will always find a way to scam anything.

You missed my point. True, I personally don't care what the current "system" is, my point was that the people who do seem to care about this particular system, often accept ones that are far more intrusive and contain a far greater capacity for fraud. But my main point was that none of this would be necessary if people would just follow the rules. But as there will always be people who try to circumnavigate the rules, this is the best that Disney could come up with for now to try and keep fraud in check. They came up with a system that they thought was a happy medium between authentication and privacy rights and ease of use and speed of application. And as a side note to Goofie4Goofy, please don't confuse your right to smoke and hurt yourself with my right to breathe fresh air in public places.

 

[Kick Save]

Let's say at some point in the future everything is purchased by scanning your retina (or fingerprint, or hand print, or DNA, or whatever). "The system" - banks, credit card companies, retail outlets, etc. - then uses that as a key to unlock your account and transfer the money.

OK, but we're not at some point in the future, we're not dealing a bank, credit card company, or retail outlet. We're in 2006 dealing with the front gate of the Magic Kingdom.

For this some time in the future doomsday scenario to come true, we'd have to start using that technology, and then Disney would have to sell/share/release your fingerprint info. At which point I believe The Mouse would be breaking more than a few privacy laws.

I'm hip to the conspiracy theories out there, but in reality nothing is tied to your fingerprint in this case other than your ticket. I suppose with the big room key/ticket/credit card combo your fingerprint could be tracked back to your credit card. But even now, what's that matter? Somebody with your fingerprint could buy something on your credit card account? So we have to fear, who, James Bond?

Sorry, didn't mean to get wrapped up in this, but it seems fairly non-issue-ish to me. At the end of the day, Disney is a private entity and can scan your fingertips to let you in or not. Legally, they're disclosing what they're doing with that information. What they could do with it is different than what they are doing with it.

Ah, the legistlated smoking thing, tlev, there's a can of worms that probably didn't need opened.