Ramblings of an old LandBaron

[DVC-Landbaron]

Hi everybody!!

As most of you have noticed, (some rather cheerfully ) I've been away for a time. Sept. 11th caused a tremendous amount of additional work 'at the office' and at a really bad time as two key members of my staff took promotions in another Department one week before the attack (they still haven't been replaced!!). Also, my home computer bit the dust (taps should be playing, softly in the background) and finances didn't allow for an immediate replacement. Also, with so many people jumping into car #3 (before the new poll) my ramblings were either late (due to the above problems) or just downright superfluous!! JJ, AV and all the others have, more times than not, beaten me to the punch, with their usual insightful and succinct style, leaving me with very little I could add to the conversation. In a way I was rather satisfied that the movement which I tenaciously began over a year ago (being a lone voice in the wilderness at the time) had taken on a life of it's own. But at the same time, quite honestly, Disney has depressed me lately. And I needed to spend some serious time in both my laughing place and my thoughtful place!

So now, in a very indistinct and esoteric manner, I'd like to review recent events and analyze them philosophically, and see if they hold up to those ever elusive "Disney Standards" we like to discuss from time to time. Not individually, but in a 'big picture' type of thing.

And no LandBaron post would be complete with a quote!! So for this original thread I'd like to borrow a quote from our favorite duck! That distinguished traveler recently returned from the west, our own Mr. DisDuck!!

Am I happy with everything going on at WDW right now, NO but given all the circumstances I am willing to cut slack and look to the future.

This is a great place to start. Now hold on to your hats gang - but I agree!! Yes! I do! Totally and unequivocally. I want to cut them as much slack as they need. This is, after all, in the words of John Lennon, "strange days indeed"!! They definitely need to make some changes in response to the events that have occurred and the public's perceptions and rapidly evolved vacations habits. They are not in business for the pure love of it after all and they should expect to make a profit! (How about that Captain Peter!!! And coming from my keyboard!!)

So, the closing of Port Orleans (sorry, old names die hard with me), the shorter hours and the elimination of EE and E-Ticket Nights, the cutting of staff and every other harebrained scheme they happen to institute in the next couple of months are all completely excusable if not downright justifiable. I don't believe the country has ever experienced this before and everyone, including Disney, is searching for the right balance to bring about a new sense of 'normal'. It'll be different for sure. And I firmly believe that Disney needs a bit of time to sort it all out. To find the new, and right balance, in our new world. They will make mistakes. They will (hopefully) hit the mark. It will be a mixed bag and I, for one, will give them the time to find their way.

WOW!!! I just re-read the above couple paragraphs and can't believe it's the same guy that's driving car #4!! WAIT!!! Before the doormen open up that car #1 stretch limo, read on, starting with another quote from Mr. Duck:

I acknowledge (like someone else did) that Disney did the WORST public relations job EVER in handling its changes before and after Sept 11th.

Again, Mr. Duck - I agree!! And that's why I'm in the car I'm in. Cause the difference between you and I is what you said next:

Get over it, please.

I can't! I wish I could, but I can't. I really believe that it is just this type of ridiculously inept business decisions that is indicative of their entire operation and philosophical outlook. I really don't know how you can excuse it (and when I say you I mean all the members of car #1, not just Mr. Duck). I don't know what kind of justification or slant can possibly give them any credence at all.

Which leads me and others (and I don't know why you don't either) to question all their other moves. Maybe eliminating EE is stupid? I don't know. Maybe they really do have to do it. But I do know, for certain, that the way they handle their public relations is very stupid. So maybe. Just maybe, they're also stupid in the EE thing as well. Do you at least see why the questions come so easily to us?

Maybe the car thing gets in the way. Everyone who knows me, knows that I can get a great deal of "magic" from a visit to WDW. I literally ooze pixie dust during and shortly after my trip. So I really don't have a car as gcurling listed them. Or at least the car I'm in is mislabeled slightly. It should read:

The 'Magic' of the parks has been reasonably maintained, but the philosophical 'Magic' is all but gone and I am very pessimistic about it's return under the leadership of the current management team (especially Ei$ner) and am relatively concerned that an entire management change may not produce the results we're all looking for!!

How's that for a car title!!?? What about you car #1 people? I can't believe that there hasn't been even a passing thought along those lines rattling inside your heads lately. Am I that far off the mark?

 

[Peter Pirate]

How in the hell am I going to argue with that post?

I want to cut them as much slack as they need...

I have typed & erased those sentiments many times in the past month or so. Thanks for stating them. It feels nice to agree with an admired advesary for a change!

 

[YoHo]

Hey, Come on, All of Disney's PR money was spent Chartering a 1/4 mile long Nuclear Party boat to Pearl, they couldn't possibly have any money left for important PR things.

 

[All Aboard]

Just got back from a three day trip to WDW last night. I don't have the time right now to spill out the reams (well, bytes) that are bouncing in my head. So, I'll just hit it from 35,000 feet.

Landbaron, I agree with you. I have been very guilty of reacting harshly to recent decisions and the manner in which information has been delivered to guests. I'm not giving Disney much slack right now, and I'm not so sure that's the right thing to do. However, tey are still getting my business, unabated.

To my trip. I'll hit the biggest negatives first. The loss of EE hit us hard, very hard. Morning #1, my daughter pops up at 5:45am and announces that she's ready. Unfortunately, we had 3 hours and 15 minutes before ANY theme park opened. Normally, we'd get on the EE bus at about 7:00am. They were not letting anyone board the MK bus without Breakfast PS's until 8:30am. I didn't want to wait, ignored them, and boarded one that arrived at 8:15. Normally, even when MK opened at 9, Main Street opened at 8:30 or so. Not now, turnstiles opened at 8:50 am. I don't get this - the crowd swell outside the gates grew to huge levels. MK became very heavily crowded quite early, so we hopped to Epcot.

On Saturday, we encountered the same thing at Epcot. We couldn't get through the turnstiles until nearly 9:45 am. By 10:00am rope drop, the breezeways under both sides of Spaceship Earth were cram packed with guests. Immediately, the queue for Test Track became 45 minutes. Saturday night, MK was extremely full with guests who were trying to see the only showings of Spectromagic for the week. After the first, we left as the fireworks were beginning and waited on four busses (about 45 minutes) to get back to All Star Sports.

Sunday, we arrived at the Studios at 8:45a. Big Mistake. The queues at the (unopened) turnstiles stretched back to the Christmas Tree. That's the longest (by far) that I have ever seen them. Luckily, a CM walked up to the last turnstile just as I was surveying the situation. I shot into line. I can't imagine how long it took for those at the back of the other lines to get through.

In all, I saw absolutely no dropoff in crowd levels. Yesterday afternoon posted wait times were 60 minutes at ToT, 45 minutes at Star Tours & RnR. The Studios were bursting at the seams. We spent very little time at MK (where we normally spend most of our time) because the Friday crowds scared us off.

I'm standing on my original concern. The cutbacks (especially EE) have overshot the mark and have contributed to reduced guest (at least this guest) experience.

--sorry managerius interuptus... to be continued.

 

[JeffJewell]

What about you car #1 people? I can't believe that there hasn't been even a passing thought along those lines rattling inside your heads lately. Am I that far off the mark?

...actually, there're quotes in several threads from DisDuck, Peter Pirate, and thedscoop (all of whom have pretty much achieved Car #1 Poster-Child status) indicating that they see some of the same problems we've seen. They choose to react to those problems in a different way than we do; a way that affords them the luxury of simply ignoring the problems if it suits them to do so.

One of the real problems that you and I have is that the kind of Disney Magic we're talking has been stone dead for a decade or more (although Tower of Terror seems to represent quite an anomaly), and we're left discussing the relative merits of clearly less-than-Magic output with people who either never experienced and don't understand what we're talking about, or just don't value it. Perhaps a few will come to realize what we mean when they get to compare TDS with DCA, but, in all honesty, it's far past too late.

The reason we end up in so many arguments with people is that we remember when the imprint "Disney" really did mean that it was conceived and created according to a standard far exceeding competing companies. Now, at least as far as new products are concerned, the imprint means nothing more than its face value: Disney printed their company's name on this product. In what is now the majority of cases, Disney purchases and re-labels the same products that their competitors purchase and re-label. The fact that some people believe that that re-labeling process somehow bestows Magic upon an otherwise unremarkable geegaw might be a disappointing commentary on our society as a whole, but that fact remains a truism, one that people like ourselves must consider when we decide to post on the DIS.

Good luck with the thread.

Jeff

 

[YoHo]

gcurling, When was the last time you made the trek up to Orlando? Was it before the dropping of EE? I can't remember. Also, what kind of crowd levels does the week before thanksgiving typically see?

I realize the reports have been that the weekends have been busy, but I have to wonder if the Thanksgiving holiday is upping the crowd. I think it was United that said there bookings are at about 90% of the pre-911 Thanksgiving Expectations. Its possible that the holidays will bring some different policies.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

One of the real problems that you and I have is that the kind of Disney Magic we're talking has been stone dead for a decade or more (although Tower of Terror seems to represent quite an anomaly), and we're left discussing the relative merits of clearly less-than-Magic output with people who either never experienced and don't understand what we're talking about, or just don't value it. Perhaps a few will come to realize what we mean when they get to compare TDS with DCA, but, in all honesty, it's far past too late.

I'm sorry about the length of the above quote. Most of the time I'm pretty good at clipping them. But this one was so good, I didn't want to leave a single thought out!

And you are right JJ. 100% pure!! It all goes to the concept. The idea. The philosophy of what Disney is really all about. The definition has changed over the years, my friends. And that is why I am pessimistic about the return. It happened slowly. Subtly. Almost methodically. But it has definitely changed. Case in point (from Mr. DisDuck (sorry to keep point out your quotes, but you give me so much ammo ):

LB... One thing I forgot to mention, right up your alley. DL rides did not lead into stores. My daughter and I actually missed that feature. It is one of the 'cool' things we like about WDW (from a joking point of view - like it cannot be a Disney ride if it doesn't end in a store).

My goodness!! How twisted!! I don't mean that personally, but that type of thinking is… well… almost… 'Anti-Walt"!! The whole concept was to be subtle. To not do an overt sell job on the public. To get away from the "sharp practices" of the carnival and amusement park types. Do you see how perverted the concept has become?

like it cannot be a Disney ride if it doesn't end in a store

Back in "The Day" (as my kids call it) if it ended in a cheap store, it couldn't be Disney!! Disney had class. Disney had style! Disney didn't ram things down your throat. Disney was … different!! That was the whole point!

And only one example of how really dead the original concept is. (and one that doesn't even touch upon the points brought up by JJ, which are far more tangible.)

 

[Lesley]

Well, I for one have missed your input. The most interesting discussions around here seem to be when the whole "core group" of board participants are around!

I am also quite concerned by gcurling's trip report. My dh will be extremely upset if we need to keep ee hours just to get through the turnstiles promptly at opening. And any wait more than a few minutes with our toddler will be difficult. <sigh> As for cutting them some slack....I think we're all doing that by still going! I am trying to remain hopeful that by the end of January they'll have worked things out for the better. I really do hope so...if this trip isn't truly magical I think my dh will be pushing to sell the DVC!

I love the car title! lol

 

[Lesley]

"Back in "The Day" (as my kids call it) if it ended in a cheap store, it couldn't be Disney!! Disney
had class. Disney had style! Disney didn't ram things down your throat. Disney was … different!!
That was the whole point! "

Yes, exactly. This was what impressed me about Disney. That was back in 1992...my first trip as an adult. The one exception being the POC where you have always exited into a shop....but it was themed to be a part of the experience. I love that carribean marketplace and it has some of the more unique merchandise available in WDW. Compare that to Pooh, where you exit into a definite shop where they only have all the same Pooh and friends stuff that's in every other store in WDW.....I love the ride (no offense to Mr. Toad, who I loved as a kid!) but that's just plain tacky. The store does not make me feel like I'm in the hundred acre wood, nor does it make me want a souvenir.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

I am also quite concerned by gcurling's trip report.

As am I!! I have meet the esteemed Mr. gcurling and know him to be a moderate, clear thinker. If he's that upset by things, chances are, I'd go BALLISTIC!!!!

My dh will be extremely upset if we need to keep ee hours just to get through the turnstiles promptly at opening.

Oh my sister!!! I feel your pain!!

I noticed that last summer when I was there. It was especially annoying at the MK, but I could feel the effects at Epcot and the Studios as well. I don't know why they do it, but it seems as though they really enjoy seeing people stand in line. They have what appears to be hundreds of turnstiles, but only two CMs manning them. What's with that!!!! Like I really need to stand in line for fifteen minutes (or even five minutes, the time period doesn't matter, it's the principle of the thing) just to get into the place!!! What a way to start your day!! The sad part is, they've got everyone conditioned that this is normal. I think Walt would have a different idea on this sort of thing.

I know I do!!!!!

 

[All Aboard]

YoHo, prior to this past weekend, our last trip was early October - before the elimination of EE.

The pre-Thanksgiving weekend is usually fairly light (nothing like September & January, but lighter than most of October). It's sandwiched in between New Jersey week and the heavy Thanksgiving week. I expected crowds to be moderate, what we encountered was quite heavy. It matched reports from recent weeks that others have posted.

A couple of other notes while I have a minute. On two occasions I overheard CMs grumbling over hours and cuts (their working hours, not park hours). One said "so what, with this many guests here you'd think they'd bring back the part-timers." I don't know the full context, that's just what I heard.

The new castle show is entertaining. Our daughter absolutely loved it.

Still seeing more and more characters. In the hour before the Stars and Motorcars parade, the Studios become inundated with characters. That was nice.

With a 3 year old at my side, all I could really enjoy at the Food & Wine festival was the food booths. I nearly popped on Friday with all I ate. This is really a great festival and I hope it sticks around for a long time. The lines were manageble on Friday, very long on Saturday at the booths.

Tapestry was cancelled most times because of wind. We've missed this parade so many times because of the weather. Disney cannot control the weather of course, but this parade is very suseptible to the mildest of weather conditions.

Bus intervals at our resort seemed wider than usual. Made for long lines and long waits. We drove to the parks on Sat & Sun, as we left I noticed very long lines at the bus stops. They are not picking up until about a half hour before park opening.

No problems whatsoever with maintenance and cleanliness levels throughout the parks. Did see a little more work going on during operating hours than I would prefer. Hey, no excuses now that parks are operating on such short schedules.

CM's seemed to be their usual friendly selves. Not sure what much of the hubub on other boards is about with respect to that topic.

All for now.

 

[Bob O]

I realize that some cuts have to be made to deal with the economic downturn, such as reduced hours and some less shows ,but the elimnation of EE is just dumb. That is now a more valuable perk and could be used as a way to induce more people to stay on site.
Regarding giving disney more slack, what have they done of late to warrant it??? If jim hill is right in his last article about mission space running behind, what does disney have in the pipeline to use as a big draw for a new pr campaign to increase attendance?? What ever became of the long overdue rework of star tours??? I see nothing new on the horizon, no new E attraction to induce guests. I just dont see any reason to give disney any slack at this time with eisner still in charge. He apparently is more involved in checking movie scripts then helping the theme park divison get over the problems they are now suffering.

 

[fklhou]

I am also concern about gcurling's report. I could stomach the concept of no EE if the crowds did not justify the additional expense. However, it sounds like that crowd have picked up some and I hope that DIsney will consider bringing EE back.

I agree with Landbaron that Disney did a horrible PR job with respect to the elimination of EE. The concept that the character caravan would be a subsitute for EE was both stupid and insulting to the intellegence of the average WDW guest.

Somehow, I sense an attitude that Disney does not care about its resort guests like it used to and has decided to try to increase traffic from locals. There is some hint on this in the Orlando Sentienel article and in some of Disney's actions. While inportant, locals can not take the place of resort guests. I hope that Disney comes up with something to make resort guests feel better about staying on site and the character caravan is not it.

 

[JeffJewell]

What ever became of the long overdue rework of star tours

...Lucas made and paid for the ride film with the understanding that Disney would upgrade the simulators with digital A/V equipment. Disney re-themed the Star Tours merchandise shop, but then the Accountanteers got hold of the "New Star Tours" budget. When they told George they didn't make his requested upgrades, he took his film and went home.

Jeff

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

BobO... (perhaps off-topic, it's hard to tell with Landbaron, sometimes)

Ahhhh! Nothing - I repeat - NOTHING is off topic in one of my threads!!

I love all the twisting and turning!!

Can't you tell??

 

[airlarry!]

Baron, as usual, you have put in print the words many of us think in our hearts. I am in the new car #3 because while I love the Disney brand and the history behind it, I have been convinced by the decisions made by the current management over the last decade or so that they see the Disney history as something to be marketed and money made from rather than a standard to which they must constantly strive to meet or beat.

I know that our #1 friends can name dozens of 'improvements' or Disney-touches that have been built in Orlando....but I'll bet we could name two pull-backs for every one.

An example: when I hear people say that Walt built cheap dark rides or Disney built shops at the end of the rides, I remind myself that the MK and Epcot were complete parks..worthy of their entry fee, and some sacrifices in economy can be taken when a complete park is given. What I won't tolerate is Ei$ner giving me a beautiful place like AK and not filling it to the brim with adventures. I want the DisneySea model not the DCA model, because I want True Disney.

 

[Sandy Fisher]

We arrived on Sat. the 10th and boarded a bus from CBR around 3 p.m. (earliest we could get going) and there were only 7 people on the bus TOTAL. I was really concerned. Got to MK and everyone coming in was being shuttled down toward the monorail/ferry for entry because of security tables set up there. Could have watched the parade from the Main St. train platform and actually walked along Main on the sidewalks without any difficulty, clear around Crystal Palace and watched from there.
But by the time we got to Splash and Big Thunder, they posted 45 minute waits on both. We skipped and headed over to Haunted Mans. 45 minute wait posted there too and the line stretched out from under the canopy.
Did a few other things and then decided to try HM -- actual time from entering the line to boarding the ride was about 18 minutes. What I didn't like was the fact that when the stretch room door opened, the hallway still had people standing. Same thing happened a couple days later and the CM appeared surprised.
Also noticed on Sunday the crowds packed in around Sp. Earth. They left the line for it start moving at 10 til 10 and actually started boarding around 10. I thought the idea of having that many people packed in like sardines wasn't necessary.
However as the week progressed, most things became walk-ons and we repeated as much as we had stamina for! We talked to numerous CMs about job changes -- as much as they felt comfortable talking about.
The CM who checked us in on Sat. had worked at Port Orleans til 4 days previously. The CM who waited on us at the JII gift shop had a "Space Mountain" name tag on. But one of the bus drivers (after park closing) chatted the whole way back to CBR and said Disney is adding 300 buses in March (didn't say replacement) and that they employ 57,000 people. Every CM who wasn't absolutely swamped was eager to strike up conversations. A gal working in the DD Christmas Shoppe said she had worked at Living Seas and JII. So they are being shuffled around big time. We've never had so many CMs start conversations before. And most of it seemed genuine.
But I really don't like EE being discontinued if they are going to pack everyone in at the entrance. Thanks for letting me vent.

 

[airlarry!]

Two questions for CM's after that last post:

1. Anybody know why crowding after the stretch room happens? It happened to us on our mardi Gras trip. After the thunder and the scream and the room opening, I always thought you had a clear line right to the boarding area, but we got jam packed with another stretching room opened at nearly the same time or around the same time. It was a nightmare! People actually pushing around to get closer to the area.

2. Are they really going to stop the early entry (not EE) into the parks? That was always a nice hidden benefit for veterans -- the fact that the park opening hours were not really the opening hours. Most times it opened up at least 1/2 hour before, and allowed the crowds to get away from the turnstiles and head toward the rides and shops and breakfast areas. More money in my opinion for Disney that way.

 

[BRERALEX]

(writing this on my laptop while trying to jump out of my car window into the car next to me;#3)

Just wanted to say good to have you back DVC. Havent heard from ya in awhile

 

[wdw4us2]

I have to agree 100% with gcurling's observations of this past weekend. My DH and I are always at WDW this particular weekend because he has a conference in Orlando. The parks had double the amount of people they usually have. While waiting on lines for attractions (something that happened way too frequently for me) I had the chance to chat with other guests. Most were long time WDW vets like myself (29 years) and were absolutely disgusted by the elimination of EE and the way it was handled. While hanging around the resort - WL- I talked to some folks with young kids (ours didn't come this trip). When asked if they took advantage of the Character Caravan, those who did said it was a waste of time. Three not very popular characters that their kids did not enjoy. I personally find it insulting that Disney thinks they can use the Character Caravan as a "replacement" for Surprise Mornings (this is their quote in the World Update). I also heard many people saying they would stay off-site next trip if EE was not reinstated. Is anyone at Disney listening to this???