Question for Catholics

[numbersman]

I agree. Maybe "bashing" was a bit much. But, don't you think the phrase "Catholic church has...very little biblical understanding" is fairly biased/loaded? Seems to me it's intended to be a form of disparagement towards Catholicism, if not actual bashing.

Of course it's biased, from the viewpoint of the person who said it, b/c it is their opinion! And for anyone who doesn't hold that opinion, it would be biased AGAINST their opinion! As to whether it's disparaging towards Catholocism, I don't know the poster, so I can't make that determination without talking to him/her. But I don't think it's fair to call an obvious disagreement necessarily a disparagement, do you?

 

[punkin]

hmmm... that's a good question. I guess I just have a hard time believing that a God so good could banish his flesh and blood to such a place as hell, so I choose not to believe that it exists. I know that is probably not good concrete evidence, but.........

I think that your opion on the subject of your personal faith is the best concrete evidence of your beliefs. Other people's opinions. be it pope, priest or some guy on a message board, really don't matter at all.

 

[numbersman]

hmmm... that's a good question. I guess I just have a hard time believing that a God so good could banish his flesh and blood to such a place as hell, so I choose not to believe that it exists. I know that is probably not good concrete evidence, but.........

Janet, let me commend you for being honest about your feelings and why you have them. Based on your emoticon, it appears you may not be actually certain as to whether it exists or maybe as to exactly why you think that, might that be a correct statement?

If so, and if you're at least open to discussing it, I'd love to offer my opinion, but I won't do so unless you agree, is that fair?

 

[janet715]

I think that your opion on the subject of your personal faith is the best concrete evidence of your beliefs. Other people's opinions. be it pope, priest or some guy on a message board, really don't matter at all.

ROCK ON!

 

[janet715]

Janet, let me commend you for being honest about your feelings and why you have them. Based on your emoticon, it appears you may not be actually certain as to whether it exists or maybe as to exactly why you think that, might that be a correct statement?

If so, and if you're at least open to discussing it, I'd love to offer my opinion, but I won't do so unless you agree, is that fair?

I am certain as to my beliefs... maybe not exactly sure how I came to that belief tho. I am certainly open to hear you opinion.

 

[numbersman]

I think that your opion on the subject of your personal faith is the best concrete evidence of your beliefs. Other people's opinions. be it pope, priest or some guy on a message board, really don't matter at all.

I'm not sure anyone's "opinion" can be considered "concrete evidence" of anything, b/c it is just an "opinion". Now, if that opinion is based on something, you might be on to something

However, I will agree with you that other people's opinions, even "some guy on a message board", can do nothing for anyone - at the end of your life, it is the beliefs that you yourself hold that will determine your fate in eternity. You are 100% correct on that one.

 

[numbersman]

I am certain as to my beliefs... maybe not exactly sure how I came to that belief tho. I am certainly open to hear you opinion.

OK, so you're certain of WHAT you believe, just not certain of WHY you believe it. We can work with that!

Here's a few questions for you, to start a basis:

Do you believe that you will go to Heaven when you die? If so, why?

Do you believe your Bible is the inspired Word of God, and is without error? If not, why?

Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? If not, why?

 

[janet715]

OK, so you're certain of WHAT you believe, just not certain of WHY you believe it. We can work with that!

Here's a few questions for you, to start a basis:

Do you believe that you will go to Heaven when you die? If so, why?

Do you believe your Bible is the inspired Word of God, and is without error? If not, why?

Do you believe in the concept of the Trinity? If not, why?

I do believe I will go to heaven. Tho I suppose it could get pretty crowded there, so I might believe in the concept of reincarnation... but I'm not quite sure. Why? because there MUST be something better than this mudball we call earth.
As for the bible..... there is just way too much hogwash and symbolism in it for me to comment on it. The whole concept was ruined for me when I found out that "the apple" in the garden of eden was really "sex". I know that's not something you teach kids, but I felt lied to.
I do believe in the concept of the trinity. Why? ummmm... why not??
In all seriousness, I believe that if I am a good person, no matter what I believe, I will go to heaven. God and I have that agreement.

 

[JennyMominRI]

hmmm... that's a good question. I guess I just have a hard time believing that a God so good could banish his flesh and blood to such a place as hell, so I choose not to believe that it exists. I know that is probably not good concrete evidence, but.........

Jews don;t believe in a place of eternal torment caled Hell,so you're not alone

 

[numbersman]

I do believe I will go to heaven. Tho I suppose it could get pretty crowded there, so I might believe in the concept of reincarnation... but I'm not quite sure. Why? because there MUST be something better than this mudball we call earth.
As for the bible..... there is just way too much hogwash and symbolism in it for me to comment on it. The whole concept was ruined for me when I found out that "the apple" in the garden of eden was really "sex". I know that's not something you teach kids, but I felt lied to.
I do believe in the concept of the trinity. Why? ummmm... why not??
In all seriousness, I believe that if I am a good person, no matter what I believe, I will go to heaven. God and I have that agreement.

OK, so this may be more difficult than first anticipated...

It sounds as if you have no set belief system, and that you have basically taken everything you have ever seen or heard about religion and used it as a reason to form your own beliefs.

You say you have a great relationship with God - are you sure you do? Deep down, are you absolutely sure that you have a relationship with the God of the Bible, absolutely sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you die, you will go to Heaven? This is the crucial question for you right now, at this very moment. God, in His Word we call the Bible, says that "being good" isn't enough, that we're all sinners, and we can't get to Heaven based on anything WE have done, but only based on what Jesus has done for us. However, the Bible also says that there is nothing that I myself can do to convince anyone of that, that they must be willing to accept it for themselves through the Holy Spirit. Would you be willing to admit that you might be wrong about what you believe?

 

[punkin]

I hate proselytizing and this is a very inappropriate place to preach your version of eternal truth. Numbersman, go post on the born again christian thread.

 

[janet715]

OK, so this may be more difficult than first anticipated...

It sounds as if you have no set belief system, and that you have basically taken everything you have ever seen or heard about religion and used it as a reason to form your own beliefs.

Exactly!

You say you have a great relationship with God - are you sure you do? Deep down, are you absolutely sure that you have a relationship with the God of the Bible, absolutely sure beyond a shadow of a doubt that when you die, you will go to Heaven? This is the crucial question for you right now, at this very moment. God, in His Word we call the Bible, says that "being good" isn't enough, that we're all sinners, and we can't get to Heaven based on anything WE have done, but only based on what Jesus has done for us. However, the Bible also says that there is nothing that I myself can do to convince anyone of that, that they must be willing to accept it for themselves through the Holy Spirit. Would you be willing to admit that you might be wrong about what you believe?

I don't think my beliefs, or anyone's for that matter, are right or wrong. They are just mine.... based on what I have been taught and my own feelings. I talk to God everyday.. and I feel that we have an understanding. But I guess none of us really know until we die, right? So maybe I'll see you in the hereafter... and maybe I won't.

 

[numbersman]

I hate proselytizing and this is a very inappropriate place to preach your version of eternal truth. Numbersman, go post on the born again christian thread.

Sorry, punkin, this is addressed to Janet, who agree to go into the conversation before I even started. I asked her permission. I'm sorry you don't like it or agree with it, but as you are entitled to your opinions, I am also entitled to mine, don't you think?

 

[Mercy]

Oh please. Why must a question about the Catholic faith be fair game for Catholic bashing?

Sorry, I didn't think I was "bashing"... I was just agreeing with Joe, and stated my reason for agreeing with him.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

I do believe I will go to heaven. Tho I suppose it could get pretty crowded there, so I might believe in the concept of reincarnation... but I'm not quite sure. Why? because there MUST be something better than this mudball we call earth.
As for the bible..... there is just way too much hogwash and symbolism in it for me to comment on it. The whole concept was ruined for me when I found out that "the apple" in the garden of eden was really "sex". I know that's not something you teach kids, but I felt lied to.
I do believe in the concept of the trinity. Why? ummmm... why not??
In all seriousness, I believe that if I am a good person, no matter what I believe, I will go to heaven. God and I have that agreement.

Well of course you are free to believe that, but it is the polar opposite of Catholicism/Christianity, espcially if you think the Bible has too much "hogwash."

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Actually, in many ways, I agree with you. I was just trying to explain the modern Catholic Church's position on things.

The Catholic Church's teaching on sin now is very different from the way I was taught as a child. I had one religion teacher who told me that our souls were like white pieces of paper, and every time we sinned, God marked a black mark on our souls, and if we had too many black marks when we died, we went to Hell. I didn't accept that then, and I don't agree with that now. That kind of teaching is probably mostly due to the poor quality of Catholic education in general. I've noticed that, as a whole, "cradle Catholics" (slang for those Catholic from birth) know less overall about their own religion than people of other religions know about their own religion.

Glad we agree.

I'm certainly glad the Catholic Church changed their teaching! (That old stuff, based on the one teacher you mentioned, blasphemes what Jesus did on the cross -- big time.)

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

The effect of suicide on one's soul doesn't need to be looked at from the viewpoint of any church, b/c it really doesn't matter what any church thinks about it. It matters what the Bible says about it. Does the Bible say explicitly anywhere that suicide will keep you from going to Heaven? No, not directly. What it does teach is that SIN keeps you from going to Heaven, unless you accept Jesus as your Savior, who died to cover all of our sins, not just some of them. That means that any sin can keep you out, unless your faith is in Jesus Christ. So, does that mean that each and every individual sin must be confessed before you can enter Heaven? Well, I don't believe so. We all sin each and every day, even those who have accepted Jesus still sin (see 1 John). We should continually be asking for forgiveness for our sins and striving to sin no more, however, we will never be perfect this side of Heaven, so we will still sin. But it is not the confession of each and every sin that gets us into Heaven, it is our saving faith in Jesus Christ. So if a Christian who has accepted Jesus commits a sin of any kind at 5 PM, and then gets in a car wreck and dies at 5:05 PM without having confessed that sin, is he kept from Heaven? No. Nowhere does the Bible teach that. God knows the condition of each man's heart, and He knows whether the person was "saved" or not. The same holds true of suicide. Is a person kept out of Heaven b/c they could not repent of the sin of suicide (by virtue of the fact that they have killed themselves)? No, for the same reasons as above. This doesn't give us a license to sin, as we should be striving to NOT sin. But it also doesn't condemn us for each and every mistake we make as Christians, b/c Jesus has covered our sins through his death on the cross.

It has nothing to do with Catholicism, hell, Heaven, or which religion you are. That is a teaching of the Bible.

VERY well said. I TOTALLY agree. More importantly, it IS the Bible's teaching.

 

[JoeEpcotRocks]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was one reference. I appreciate (and agree) that the meaning of it is less than certain. That you confess uncertainty as to knowing the Divine's intent in that statement signals you as thoughtful and not seeking to create divisions, which immediately distances you from those that seek to use the faith to divide and do anything but serve Christ, like Joe, who engaged in some ignorant and cheap Catholic bashing

The other reference is to Matthew 16, when the future Church is delegated the power, in Christ's name, to absolve and the power the power to hold sins bound. That at least suggests that some sins will not be absolved, though if you follow the theology further, there is no category of sin, save the aforementioned blasphemy, that is excluded. Most feel the qualification is more through discernment as to sincere contrition - does the penitent really seek forgiveness for h as in s/he is truly sorry for. But that's not totally clear, and is in contrast to Joe's ignorant Catholic-bashing.

On the larger level, the debate is a false one, as some radical clerics for years have stirred up Catholic bigotry by claiming the RCC teaches that Man can effect his own salvation (the Pelagian heresy) through deeds. Catholics fully believe in the Pauline doctrine of Justification - we say so in our creed. The deeds teaching from James is something different, and the claim that Catholics believe that the priest is exercising his own power in granting absolution is also wrong - it's sacramental power, essentially channeling the Divine, to use an overly crude formulation. I don't think Protestants believe any differently, as they believe that baptism effectuates a Divine presence irrespective of the Pastor. The difference of course, is the claim that an ordained ministry has the exclusive right to administer the sacraments, except under rare circumstance. That's a debate for another day, but Catholics do not believe that the priest forgives sins through his own power

Salvation is a gift. We must only accept what Jesus did on the cross.

And BTW, all believers are "priests." When Jesus died on the cross the veil of the temple was torn in two, giving all believers direct access to God.

The Catholic Church has done many good things, and based on what I've read in many posts here -- it is getting back in line with the Bible, especially in the area of God's Mercy & Grace -- that heaven is not "earned." Praise God!

 

[Daxx]

My dd has a friend whose mother shot herself last week.
The funeral was like week.
I was not able to attend.
Another friend said that it was REALLY sad since the girl couldn't be comforted by knowing that her mom was in heaven, since Catholics believe that if you kill yourself you go to hell.
If that is the case, what is said at the funeral? Did they tell the little girl her mother is in hell?
Is this strict Catholic policy, or does it vary among the parishes?
Thanks for the answers!

Catholic here and I teach at a Catholic school, too.

What was said at the funeral, you ask!? Easy ... there was a reading from the old testament and a reading from the new testament ... picked out by the family from a booklet the church gives you. You can opt for another reading, as long as it's appropriate -- then you tell the priest what reading you'd like to do. Usually, friends or family members are chosen to do the readings. The readings aren't "heavy" -- they are optimistic re. heaven and death. Then, the priest has a reading from the Gospel ... again, appropriate for a funeral and optimistic re. heaven/death. That the person who passed (regardless of how) will be looking to a life w/Jesus, God, etc. Then, the priest will give a sermon/eulogy on the dearly departed which is where he will say NICE things about the deceased. Some memory or story or reflection on the deceased.

My Uncle passed away in Oct., and I did one of his readings. It went something like "Oh, death, where is thy sting. Oh grave, where is thy victory?". It was dramatic, but not fire and brimstone. Basically the reading tells us that we should challenge death to show its teeth. Death has no sting or victory because of Jesus Christ's death on the cross for us. In my Uncle's sermon, the priest talked about Uncle's garden and how life is like a garden ... good plants, not so good plants, healthy plants and those that do not survive, blah, blah, blah. The whole "circle of life" thing but using plants and not Mufasa. It was a nice tie in to the faith as well as to my Uncle and his favorite hobby. There is no fire and brimstone ... nobody blasphemes her or says the woman will burn in hell b/c she committed suicide.

Did they tell the little girl that her mother is in hell? I would be absolutely, totally shocked if they did. I highly, highly doubt it. That's not what we do. The Catholic church has taken a "softer" side to these things. No more "black marks" on your soul, etc.

Basically, since my Kdg. students are too young for reconciliation (confession), I simply tell them if they did something wrong, they should just say "sorry" to Jesus and truly mean it.

God is a forgiving God, not a punishing one.

Frankly, I don't believe in the whole confession thing. I deal direct. If I did something wrong and I am deeply sorry for it and realize the error of my way, then I think that's sufficient. And, honestly, I don't think people who commit suicide are going to burn in hell. There are many "policies" that the church holds that I am not "rooted" in. Does that make me a bad person? I don't think so. Does it mean that I'm right? I don't think so. Does it mean that the church is right? How would I know? Anyway, I know Catholics who use birth control and, honestly, I don't think they'll be burning in hell.

Anyway ... I know that I am def. going to heaven. My "ace in the hole" is that not only am I a Catholic School teacher , I teach Kindergarten! My cloud, harp and halo await me ... hope I won't see 'em for a loooooooooooong time!!! Hahahaha!!!!!

 

[Caropooh]

Practicing Catholics vs receiving communion have nothing really in common. The reason why a non-Catholic cannot receive communion has to do with transubstantiation and not if you attend weekly, yearly or anything like that.

Transubstantiation is the believe that the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Christ. Taking from the bible where Jesus says "this is my body" It's not meant as a representation of it, but an actual part of it. The best way I can describe is that the actual spirit of God goes into the bread and the wine.
One should be in a state of grace (all sins acknowledged and offered up for forgiveness) before receiving communion as well. I know that might bring up a whole other debate, but truly God forgives the sins, so if you ask God of it, then I believe you are in a state of Grace. It used to be you always had to go to confession before communion, but Vatican II changed that since we now have a lot of churches that celebrate First Communion before Confession.

That was a slight tangent, but as long as these people were raised Catholic and celebrated the sacrament of First Communion, they are good to go and celebrate at any mass.

I hope that made some sense. I would venture a guess that the children have NOT celebrated their First Communion if the family no longer goes to church, therefore would also not receive communion.

To the OP, yes you can have a church funeral for a Catholic who has committed suicide. As previously stated, if you are not mentally stable, you cannot be held accountable for that sin. I'd say anyone who commits suicide is not mentally stable. It is not believed that they will burn in hell now. I personally believe that compassion of the Church (not just Catholic either, but other Christians) has allowed for that mindset.

Thanks Elaine! That makes it much clearer to me now! I know they were both raised Catholic and married in the church. You are correct in that neither child has celebrated their First Communion. The younger DD did participate in the service by bringing the bread down the aisle to the priest. That surprised me a bit until it was explained to me that the bread is not considered Christs body until it is blessed. Is that correct? Thanks again for the answers!