Question for Catholics

[sodaseller]

I've been Catholic all my life-- being raised Catholic, you get a very different viewpoint on the faith than someone who comes into the faith as an adult. I sponsored my GF Nikkie when she became Catholic three years ago. We took intensive classes on the church, and everyone was invited to ask any question they had. Our priest teaching the class was open and honest and answered everyone's questions as best as he could. This was important, because there is so much misinformation about the church out there. As best as I understand, here is the modern church's teaching:

For sin to be present, the following two conditions must be met:
1. The person must know the act is a sin, and
2. The person must commit the sin willingly, with intention.

Therefore, suicide may not be (and 99.9% of the time probably is not) a sin, because someone who commits suicide usually has some kind of mental illness that "caused" them to end their life-- therefore, they did not do it willingly, with full intention.

Also, the Catholic church teaches that we can never judge who is in heaven or hell, because we are mere mortals and don't understand everything about an individual's life. The judgement is left up to God-- not us, priests, or even the Pope.

Also, I wanted to clear up a bit about mortal sin. Mortal sin is not "unforgivable". It's not really an action either-- more like a state of being. It simply means that the person has closed themselves off from God. Someone who has commited a mortal sin can turn back to God and be forgiven.

Hopefully this helps a bit. If you have any other questions about the Catholic Church, I'll be glad to answer them. I'm not an expert, but I can always call on my brother (a Catholic youth minister with majors in philosophy and religious studies-- way smarter than me. )

Should have read through - very well said. Are you also trained in Canon law?

 

[sodaseller]

Jesus died for ALL sin.

When mom gets to heaven, God will say "What sin? All I see is the blood of my Son, Jesus, who died on the cross to completely cleanse ALL sin. Welcome to heaven, my daughter."

Jesus' sacrifice was PERFECT. There is no sin (even if its "mortal" (what nonsense) that is not covered.


(I used to be Catholic, but this stuff about mortal sin and pergatory, etc. made me leave for a Bible church. )

Might want to actually read the text you claim to be conversant in, including whether any sins cannot be forgiven, and whether any successor can bind one to his/her sins. You are creatinga false dichotomy, as usual, as division is your purpose.

 

[Caropooh]

I'm not Catholic, but I did just go to a Catholic funeral mass yesterday. I will say that there were alot of references to where Pedro was now. (gone to "sleep" and was with the angels, with his Heavenly Father, with all the deceased and "sleeping" that had gone before him, etc.) I'm not really sure what the Father would of said for a suicide. I just know he refered to heaven ALOT!
Now on to my Catholism question. What makes you a "practicing Catholic?" I'm Lutheran and we allow anyone who chooses to come up for communion. The catholics don't. At the funeral yesterday during communion my friend and her DH(it was his Dad who had passed) went up for communion. I know for a fact that they don't go to church. Not even the Easter and Christmas sort. What makes them practicing Catholics? Did they just have to go to confession and that makes them OK in the eyes of the Church? Their DD's(7 and 11) did not go up.
TIA!!

 

[helenabear]

Now on to my Catholism question. What makes you a "practicing Catholic?" I'm Lutheran and we allow anyone who chooses to come up for communion. The catholics don't. At the funeral yesterday during communion my friend and her DH(it was his Dad who had passed) went up for communion. I know for a fact that they don't go to church. Not even the Easter and Christmas sort. What makes them practicing Catholics? Did they just have to go to confession and that makes them OK in the eyes of the Church? Their DD's(7 and 11) did not go up.
TIA!!

Practicing Catholics vs receiving communion have nothing really in common. The reason why a non-Catholic cannot receive communion has to do with transubstantiation and not if you attend weekly, yearly or anything like that.

Transubstantiation is the believe that the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Christ. Taking from the bible where Jesus says "this is my body" It's not meant as a representation of it, but an actual part of it. The best way I can describe is that the actual spirit of God goes into the bread and the wine.
One should be in a state of grace (all sins acknowledged and offered up for forgiveness) before receiving communion as well. I know that might bring up a whole other debate, but truly God forgives the sins, so if you ask God of it, then I believe you are in a state of Grace. It used to be you always had to go to confession before communion, but Vatican II changed that since we now have a lot of churches that celebrate First Communion before Confession.

That was a slight tangent, but as long as these people were raised Catholic and celebrated the sacrament of First Communion, they are good to go and celebrate at any mass.

I hope that made some sense. I would venture a guess that the children have NOT celebrated their First Communion if the family no longer goes to church, therefore would also not receive communion.

To the OP, yes you can have a church funeral for a Catholic who has committed suicide. As previously stated, if you are not mentally stable, you cannot be held accountable for that sin. I'd say anyone who commits suicide is not mentally stable. It is not believed that they will burn in hell now. I personally believe that compassion of the Church (not just Catholic either, but other Christians) has allowed for that mindset.

 

[numbersman]

Might want to actually read the text you claim to be conversant in, including whether any sins cannot be forgiven, and whether any successor can bind one to his/her sins. You are creatinga false dichotomy, as usual, as division is your purpose.

What "text" are you referring to that Joe has wrong? The only sin that I can think of that the Bible mentions cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (the definitions of what that is are also widely debated). You say he is creating a "false dichotomy", but give no alternative statements to back up what you say? What are you referring to?

 

[VSL]

Jesus died for ALL sin.

When mom gets to heaven, God will say "What sin? All I see is the blood of my Son, Jesus, who died on the cross to completely cleanse ALL sin. Welcome to heaven, my daughter."

Jesus' sacrifice was PERFECT. There is no sin (even if its "mortal" (what nonsense) that is not covered.


(I used to be Catholic, but this stuff about mortal sin and pergatory, etc. made me leave for a Bible church. )

 

[mom2boys]

Catholics don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin. Excessive alcohol is but not casual drinking. What would an Irish funeral or an Italian wedding be without alcohol???

Amen!
I suspect that wasn't a Catholic priest that told the parents their son wouldn't be in Heaven because he was driving drunk.

 

[sodaseller]

What "text" are you referring to that Joe has wrong? The only sin that I can think of that the Bible mentions cannot be forgiven is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (the definitions of what that is are also widely debated). You say he is creating a "false dichotomy", but give no alternative statements to back up what you say? What are you referring to?

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was one reference. I appreciate (and agree) that the meaning of it is less than certain. That you confess uncertainty as to knowing the Divine's intent in that statement signals you as thoughtful and not seeking to create divisions, which immediately distances you from those that seek to use the faith to divide and do anything but serve Christ, like Joe, who engaged in some ignorant and cheap Catholic bashing

The other reference is to Matthew 16, when the future Church is delegated the power, in Christ's name, to absolve and the power the power to hold sins bound. That at least suggests that some sins will not be absolved, though if you follow the theology further, there is no category of sin, save the aforementioned blasphemy, that is excluded. Most feel the qualification is more through discernment as to sincere contrition - does the penitent really seek forgiveness for h as in s/he is truly sorry for. But that's not totally clear, and is in contrast to Joe's ignorant Catholic-bashing.

On the larger level, the debate is a false one, as some radical clerics for years have stirred up Catholic bigotry by claiming the RCC teaches that Man can effect his own salvation (the Pelagian heresy) through deeds. Catholics fully believe in the Pauline doctrine of Justification - we say so in our creed. The deeds teaching from James is something different, and the claim that Catholics believe that the priest is exercising his own power in granting absolution is also wrong - it's sacramental power, essentially channeling the Divine, to use an overly crude formulation. I don't think Protestants believe any differently, as they believe that baptism effectuates a Divine presence irrespective of the Pastor. The difference of course, is the claim that an ordained ministry has the exclusive right to administer the sacraments, except under rare circumstance. That's a debate for another day, but Catholics do not believe that the priest forgives sins through his own power

 

[janet715]

I am catholic and I think its ridiculous that all our lives we are taught that God is great and forgiving... but he will send us to hell if we commit suicide. I went to catholic school my whole life and have a wonderful relationship with God, but I do not believe that hell even exists. That's my 2 cents.

 

[numbersman]

Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was one reference. I appreciate (and agree) that the meaning of it is less than certain. That you confess uncertainty as to knowing the Divine's intent in that statement signals you as thoughtful and not seeking to create divisions, which immediately distances you from those that seek to use the faith to divide and do anything but serve Christ, like Joe, who engaged in some ignorant and cheap Catholic bashing

I will say that I do have a belief as to what that particular blasphemy is, and per my belief, I don't believe it can be committed anymore, as Jesus Christ is no longer on Earth (how's that for vague??). But to me, that's really just minor, not doctrinal, b/c I don't have to worry about committing it myself. I will say, however, as you agree, that it definitely is open for interpretation as to exactly what is meant. I definitely do not view it as suicide, though. As to Joe's intent, I don't know him, so I can't speak to that. I am assuming that perhaps you have a history with Joe that I am unaware of?

The other reference is to Matthew 16, when the future Church is delegated the power, in Christ's name, to absolve and the power the power to hold sins bound. That at least suggests that some sins will not be absolved, though if you follow the theology further, there is no category of sin, save the aforementioned blasphemy, that is excluded. Most feel the qualification is more through discernment as to sincere contrition - does the penitent really seek forgiveness for h as in s/he is truly sorry for. But that's not totally clear, and is in contrast to Joe's ignorant Catholic-bashing.

Yes, Matthew 16:17-19 is an oft-debated passage as to the exact meaning of it, as well. And, in fact, I think Catholics might use these verses as a foundation for their belief of Peter being the first "pope", is that correct? I won't debate here as to what they might mean, though.

On the larger level, the debate is a false one, as some radical clerics for years have stirred up Catholic bigotry by claiming the RCC teaches that Man can effect his own salvation (the Pelagian heresy) through deeds. Catholics fully believe in the Pauline doctrine of Justification - we say so in our creed. The deeds teaching from James is something different, and the claim that Catholics believe that the priest is exercising his own power in granting absolution is also wrong - it's sacramental power, essentially channeling the Divine, to use an overly crude formulation. I don't think Protestants believe any differently, as they believe that baptism effectuates a Divine presence irrespective of the Pastor. The difference of course, is the claim that an ordained ministry has the exclusive right to administer the sacraments, except under rare circumstance. That's a debate for another day, but Catholics do not believe that the priest forgives sins through his own power

My basic beliefs are as such:

Only through Jesus can we have eternal life and come to God
We must repent of our sins and accept Jesus as our Savior to go to Heaven
If we don't, we go to Hell, which is a real place and will last for eternity
Baptism is not necessary to have salvation, but is the first public step we take after having gained salvation.
Once you are truly saved, you cannot and will not lose it (eternal security).

I guess that's it in a nutshell for me. I'll refrain from going into further detail here, so as not to clog the topic.

Thanks!

 

[mom2boys]

i find it interesting that the catholic church believes that choosing to opt out of some technological "life support" options is out and out suicide and therefore a mortal sin

This statement is not accurate. The Catholic faith allows you to make the decision not to be placed on life support. It is the removal of life support which will most certainly result in death, that is prohibited. At that point in time, the patient would not be cognizent enough to make such a decision so it I don't see how that could ever be considered suicide. Suicide is a conscious decision.

 

[jimmiej]

I am catholic and I think its ridiculous that all our lives we are taught that God is great and forgiving... but he will send us to hell if we commit suicide. I went to catholic school my whole life and have a wonderful relationship with God, but I do not believe that hell even exists. That's my 2 cents.

While it may not be PC to believe in or talk about Hell, Jesus spoke clearly of it's existence.

Matthew 25

The Parable of the Ten Virgins
*1"At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

*6"At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'

*7"Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'

*9" 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'

*10"But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

*11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'

*12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'

*13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The Parable of the Talents
*14"Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his property to them. 15To one he gave five talents[a] of money, to another two talents, and to another one talent, each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16The man who had received the five talents went at once and put his money to work and gained five more. 17So also, the one with the two talents gained two more. 18But the man who had received the one talent went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master's money.

*19"After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20The man who had received the five talents brought the other five. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with five talents. See, I have gained five more.'

*21"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

*22"The man with the two talents also came. 'Master,' he said, 'you entrusted me with two talents; see, I have gained two more.'

*23"His master replied, 'Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master's happiness!'

*24"Then the man who had received the one talent came. 'Master,' he said, 'I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25So I was afraid and went out and hid your talent in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.'

*26"His master replied, 'You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

*28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

The Sheep and the Goats
*31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

*34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

*37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

*40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

*41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

*44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

*45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

* 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment , but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[DisneyDotty]

I agree with your Joe, I left for the similar reasons. Catholic church has a lot of rules (man made), but very little biblical understanding.

Oh please. Why must a question about the Catholic faith be fair game for Catholic bashing?


OP--best to you and the family of the suicide victim.

 

[numbersman]

I am catholic and I think its ridiculous that all our lives we are taught that God is great and forgiving... but he will send us to hell if we commit suicide. I went to catholic school my whole life and have a wonderful relationship with God, but I do not believe that hell even exists. That's my 2 cents.

I'm always very intrigued when I see statements such as these. If you don't mind me asking, why don't you believe in hell, when it is clearly mentioned in the Bible that the God you have a wonderful relationship with inspired? Just curious...

 

[janet715]

While it may not be PC to believe in or talk about Hell, Jesus spoke clearly of it's existence.

That's fine. I was just putting in my opinion. I'm entitled to it!

 

[numbersman]

Oh please. Why must a question about the Catholic faith be fair game for Catholic bashing?


OP--best to you and the family of the suicide victim.

I'm not sure we can define some disagreement over what is taught as "bashing", though it does make it sound more horrid when you term it that. When someone has an opinion, and another person states a differing opinion, that is not "bashing", that is "disagreement." There will always be "disagreement" when it comes to religion, right or wrong, don't you think?

 

[janet715]

I'm always very intrigued when I see statements such as these. If you don't mind me asking, why don't you believe in hell, when it is clearly mentioned in the Bible that the God you have a wonderful relationship with inspired? Just curious...

I should have known better than to get into a religious discussion. I don't believe everything that catholicism teaches... and hell is just one of those things. I have a wonderful relationship with God... I talk with him every day. And I feel he understands me and what my beliefs are. I am entitled to my opinion... and so is everyone else, whether it is with me or against me. But my opinion is just that.... my opinion.

 

[numbersman]

I should have known better than to get into a religious discussion. I don't believe everything that catholicism teaches... and hell is just one of those things. I have a wonderful relationship with God... I talk with him every day. And I feel he understands me and what my beliefs are. I am entitled to my opinion... and so is everyone else, whether it is with me or against me. But my opinion is just that.... my opinion.

I'm pretty clear on the fact that it is your opinion, I guess my question was really what is your opinion based upon? Is it that you don't WANT to believe in hell? Is it that you think Scripture doesn't talk about it? I was really trying to ascertain WHY that's your opinion.

 

[DisneyDotty]

I'm not sure we can define some disagreement over what is taught as "bashing", though it does make it sound more horrid when you term it that. When someone has an opinion, and another person states a differing opinion, that is not "bashing", that is "disagreement." There will always be "disagreement" when it comes to religion, right or wrong, don't you think?

I agree. Maybe "bashing" was a bit much. But, don't you think the phrase "Catholic church has...very little biblical understanding" is fairly biased/loaded? Seems to me it's intended to be a form of disparagement towards Catholicism, if not actual bashing.

 

[janet715]

I'm pretty clear on the fact that it is your opinion, I guess my question was really what is your opinion based upon? Is it that you don't WANT to believe in hell? Is it that you think Scripture doesn't talk about it? I was really trying to ascertain WHY that's your opinion.

hmmm... that's a good question. I guess I just have a hard time believing that a God so good could banish his flesh and blood to such a place as hell, so I choose not to believe that it exists. I know that is probably not good concrete evidence, but.........