Question about carny games

[DVC-Landbaron]

And if I remember correctly, USF announced their park first but ME rushed MGM to be sure it was finished first.

You remember correctly.

I know you can't pin this on Walt but given this quote, what are your thoughts on MGM.

My thoughts on MGM. I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – I love it (slap) – I Hate it (slap) – Sister (slap) – Daughter (slap) – Sister (slap) – Daughter (slap) – Sister (slap) – Daughter (slap)*

I really do have a love/hate with it. I think it has tremendous potential. And most of it has been squandered. I think it is absolutely rich in theme and detail and story and all things Disney and at the same time it is a cardboard cutout of what Disney used to represent. It is an enigma, wrapped in a mystery!!!

Anyway, to your point given my quote.

I know that US did not intend to build a theme park, but once established, wouldn't Disney be the ones simply improving a concept?

You misunderstand my quote, or at least the context in which it was given. Disney sure as heck can (and should!!) “take a sad song and make it better”. They should be aware of what others are doing and see if that concept is worthy of Disney. Or could be reshaped to fit within the philosophy. YES!! They have an obligation to do exactly that!!!

What they cannot do it point to an inferior product being put out by the competition and say, “Well, they have one. Why can’t we do the same thing?” And they certainly cannot point to something well outside the philosophy and try to justify it just because the guy down the street does it. And that’s what many of their defenders do.

I hope that answers your question.








* obscure movie reference!

 

[DisneyKidds]

Its one thing to say that there are some hard to figure lines out there, but quite another to say the lines cannot exist.

I'm definitely not saying lines can't exist. I believe that Ei$ner has crossed many lines that really aren't that hard for many of us to agree on. That has been part of my learning experience around here. However, I think that many of the lines Ei$ner crossed were in how he implemented some of the things he did, as opposed to pursuing some of the concepts he did. The oft discussed Moderate resorts would be one example. I'm debating with myself (yes, in addition to being cognitively dissonant I must have multiple personalities ) as to whether to continue that discussion with the Baron.

Well said.

Not a bad response either. We better be careful or people might think we are getting along . Let's see if we can stay somewhere in the same book, if not on the same page.

I still honestly believe there was a largely creative/user experience thrust to buying all the land

Sure, but shouldn't a full palate have been available to be creative from? Shouldn't those who were to grow the property have had the flexibility to explore all types of user experiences? Even if those experiences or things that were created were a departure from what Walt had done? (I was tempted to say what Walt would have done, but I didn't want to fall into that trap of none of us really knowing, or looking at Walt's past body of evidence - a body of evidence that was tragically cut short.) Again, if Walt was able to depart from what he had previously done and really wanted, why not others? I happen to agree with your forgiveness of the theme park redux, and I guess there is a very subjective line on what different people would be willing to forgive.

Beyond that, I believe the point "it's what you do with the money" is hidden under many of the details we evaluate.

I do, however, completely agree with you on this. There is no forgiving not making the best possible use of the money. That is why I don't get involved in really discussing things like DinoRama. Definitely not the best use of money. That is why I agree with Baron's Caste System of Resorts as developed under Ei$ner. The implementation of resorts as we have them was not the best use (in relation to Walt's Philosophy) of money. However, that doesn't mean things like DinoRama and the Moderates resorts couldn't have been great, does it? (well, you don't really have to answer that because I think I know what your answer would be, but I could be wrong)

Walt's Disney was about bringing new and better experiences to people... a creative goal.

Once again, I agree. Walt was a pretty tough act to follow. Let me ask you this, since it would have been very hard to improve on what Walt had done (not that it couldn't have happened, but that might be another discussion), would it have been ok for post-Walt management to provide new and different experiences (also a creative goal) to people? Maybe they wouldn't have been better or an improvement, but perhaps just as good, but different.

In Eisner's Disney, when you take a step back, the creative goals, in my opinion, clearly exist inservice of the financial goals.

Agreed, Ei$ner has/had it backwards. If all we want to discuss is the reality of what exists today my agreement on this point limits what we have to discuss. We can't change what is. However, what Walt's Philosophy was capable of accomodating we could talk about for hours. Not that we'd be likely to agree on much, but it is an interesting discussion.

 

[Spectro is #1]

I share the same feelings for MGM as you. I miss the old MGM. As much as I like RnRC and TOT, I don't like the fact the MGM is no longer a studio.

My first trip was in 93. The Golden Girls were still on the air and so was the Disney Channel's Alice series. Picket Fences was either still on or just ended. Ernist Saves Christmas was a fairly new movie (although I never saw it). This made Residential St. relevant. Now ten years latter they are taring it down.

In 93 The New MM Club was taping. Ed McMan's Star Search was also tapping once in a while.

Monster Sound and the TV Studio that put people in some of the best TV shows of all times was open. Both fit more into the working studio theme. Now every thing must be ABC. Yawn

The back lot tour was great. Remember the room where they would point out props and models of things used in resent movies. They would also put people on the bee from HISTK. Latter changed to the bike scene from 101. Now you just pass through the room as you make your way to the trams. The whole tour is now a joke!

On one Trip we saw the live set from Earth to the Moon.

I would trade RnR and ToT to have the old “working” studio back.

Now the sound stages are used as a central shops area for MGM and for making signs around WDW.

I vented my frustrations to our Back Stage Magic tour guide during our lunch a MM.

He told me the the departure from the main working purpose of MGM has due to poor speculation and not to Disney just pulling the plug.

It was thought (back in the day) that due to low production costs, FL could be the next hot bed for movie making. All they had to do is just give Hollywood a place to work and they will come. USF bought into this belief too and so did Nick. (In 93 Clorisa Explains It All was taping there staring a very young Milissa Jone Heart)

So what had happened? The first few years were great. Movies were being made, sound stages rented, TV shows had an easy to obtain audience for tapping and things were great. Until the bills needed to get payed.

According to our tour guide, (and I'm sure he simplified it for me) basicly it came down to the actors. Although production costs were cheaper, Housing, Feeding and Flying spoiled over paid movie stars negated all the savings from shooting in FL. So unless the stares wanted to move to the Sunshine State, Hollywood it will not be. The other thing I heard about movie stars in FL that I thought was kind of funny. Hollywood stars love to buy homes in Florida to avoid taxes, but only want to come to FL for Vacation, not to really live there .

 

[Lewisc]

Originally posted by Spectro is #1

It was thought (back in the day) that due to low production costs, FL could be the next hot bed for movie making. All they had to do is just give Hollywood a plase to work and they will come. USF bought into this belief too and so did Nick. (In 93 Clorisa Explains It All was taping there staring a very young Milissa Jone Heart)

According to our tour guide, (and I'm sure he simplified it for me) basicly it came down to the actors. Although production costs were cheaper, Housing, Feeding and Flying spoiled over paid movie stars negated all the savings from shooting in FL.

I read that Disney thought FL would be using non-union labor and have some cost savings. I thought I read it wasn't the actors (housing and food is relatively cheap in FL) but you didn't have the pool of skilled tradesman and supporting/extra actors.

Low budget movies/TV shows are now being made in Canada. I suspect this is the market Disney originally thought they would attract. Higher budget productions want to be able to draw on the pool of talent (on and off the air) available in CA.

Blaming it on the spoiled actors sounds better than saying MGM-Fl couldn't compete with Canada for low costs or with CA for higher quality.

 

[Spectro is #1]

for what ever the trure story is, I still miss the old MGM

 

[Spectro is #1]

Not because of what they are, but because of how they were executed and implemented.

They are only Carny Games for crying out loud. Could you explain the right way to do them?

 

[mitros]

You never replied to my post. I still don't know what you mean. All I did was post something diane disney said. What's that got to do with pornotown??

 

[Peter Pirate]

I agree Scoop...I mean with your feelings on DR in general. Where our discussion has been dicey though is my support for the area now that it's there versus just closing it down and waiting/hoping for something to replace it. From a guest perspective we're better off with Dinoama and E:E on the way than just E:E on the way...wouldn't you agree? If not I'll be pleased to listen as to why.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

On the other hand, carny games have at best a strained fit with Dinorama and Dinorama certainly doesn't fit, as designed, with the rest of that part of the park.

Scoop,

You may want to rethink your position. Carny games at Boardwalk!?!?! Yet not in AK!?!?! Fit one theme and not the other?!?!?! All of Dinorama not fitting?!?!?

Like I said, rethink it and rethink it fast!! I’m only going to tell you once!!! If you don’t drastically change that opinion of yours we are in for serious trouble!!!

We will be in COMPLETE AGREEMENT!!!!

MY GOD!!! How can that be!!!!???

Yes, it’s true. I do agree. Half (heck probably three quarters) of my problem with the carny games at AK is the Dinorama theme in the first place. I also think we have to tread carefully, in deference to the well established opinion Walt had about those things. But that doesn’t mean they can NEVER be done within “The Philosophy”! It’s certainly within that gray area as far as I’m concerned. But they have to be done just right.

And placing them in AK, in Dinorama, just ain’t right.

 

[airlarry!]

Rather, it's more the lingering feeling of what could have been

Scoop:

You could plug that quote into every argument AV and LB and me and others have made about Mission:Space and AK and TestTrack et al.

We, just like you are in your heart of hearts, know that while we may enjoy RnR and M:S and Test Track, they are not the best that they could have been EVEN IN THE REALM OF PROBABILITY (as opposed to possibility).

I haven't even rode M:S yet, but I know it could have been better, cause we've been told what could have been. You know that, and you want to admit it, I'll bet, but something is holding you back....

And by the way, I've found one little thing to pick a bone with LB. Anything more than a fun game to add some ambience, like the shoot out guns in Frontierland, HAS NO PLACE in a Disney park. The carny games cross the line, and Walt would NEVER have had anything to do with them. Carny games=bad, very bad.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[C.Ann]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron
For this post only, I’m going to ignore all the posts afterwards and try to answer just the main question. I think it is very important and I am easily distracted!! So….

Spectro is #1. A valid question. And one that cuts to the very heart of the Disney philosophy. So, let’s take it slow and we’ll see where we wind up.


Tacky is way too subjective. Yes. I think they are tacky. You may think they represent great art. Or may be the ultimate in family fun. Now here’s the real hard part to grasp. Many miss it. Scoop has a hard time sometimes, but Mr. Kidds finally got it (my friend the Pirate NEVER got it and won’t even try anymore!). It doesn’t matter what you or I or even the long lost Captain thinks!! The only thing that matters is how it fits into the philosophy. The “Disney” philosophy! The WALT “Disney” philosophy!!!

Now you may ask yourself (as I did three or four years ago) how the heck we find out what Walt intended. Or more important why it even matters for today’s Disney. OK. Second question first. It is important, no, critical because it is the very foundation of all the fan loyalty this company enjoys. It is what made this company what it is today. Quite simply, it is what made all the money.

It is NOT, contrary to popular belief, the creation of Pirates of the Caribbean (both ride and film). It is NOT the Tower of Terror. And it is NOT even Snow White. It is the philosophical beliefs behind those things that made the company great. It is the standards and doctrines that Walt created that built up the unbelievable and unparallel fan loyalty that the company enjoys today. If we can agree on this, we can move on.

The second bit seems a bit trickier, but is actually easier. We have a wealth of information regarding Walt. There are volumes describing in detail the ‘whys’ of the way he thought. There’s entire book of quotes that deal with virtually every subject imaginable. And if we really get stuck there’s Disneyland, his film work, WDW and to a certain extent EPCOT that we can derive a whole bunch of answers from.

OK!! So now we know why it is important and we know where to look for answers. I think it’s time to get specific. Just what does the philosophy say about those games!?!?

Well, Hope is EXACTLY right. Let’s look at the quote again:Now for my money this paragraph alone is enough to give these games the deep six. As you delve deeper into the creation of Disneyland you’ll find how absolutely deplorable Walt found these kinds of things. How these “Carnival” things (among others) was the very reason he was motivated to built Disneyland. And how he wouldn’t allow their essence anywhere near his Disneyland.
No. Not that alone. If this were truly the only slip from the philosophy I would play the games every day and donate all my plush winnings to Peter Pirate’s Benevolent Fund for Retired Seafarers. As it is these games are only indicative of the decline of the company through the wanton disregard of Walt’s philosophy. Everything from the Mega-Conglomerate mentality to the sequels (Cinderella XVII – The prince and ugly step sister number two) to the cheap carnival games just point to the demise of a once great company.

The flip answer is – SO WHAT!?!?!

The real answer is – SO WHAT!?!? What in the world does Busch Gardens or USF have to do with Disney?!!?! I’m sorry to be condescending, but can someone tell me how this is important? How the philosophy and standards of another amusement park could possible make any difference whatsoever to how Disney should operate?? I really don’t get it!!!

They also have rides without a theme and rude employees. Does that make it OK for Disney? Sure bring beer into the MK, they’re all doing it!! Yes!! Just build the damned rollercoaster!! Forget about the story. Forget about a theme. Just do it like that place in Tampa!! Or heck!! Let’s just settle for 6 Flags!! It sure is easier than living up to Disney standards!!
I like them too. But not in Disney!! Can you start to see the difference?


Peter!! Old friend!! How have you been? Feeling your oats lately I see.

Anyone in particular you had in mind?

I can see I’ve been away too long. I may have to come around more often!!! Thanks for the motivation, my friend!!! Give my regards to the Captain!!!

----------------------------------------

EXCELLENT POST !!!!!!!

I don't go to Disney so I can attend a carnival.. There's one every year in a small hick town up near my summer place and it sure does look an awful lot like the carney in Disney.. I'm not happy with it - not at all......

 

[Spectro is #1]

Scoop:

Ok now I don't get it

Because games are on the boardwalk, it is ok to put them in a boadwalk themed resort.

But because there are games in amusment parks it is bad to have them in the theme parks. (because Walt said so) Even if the themed land is themed to be a cheep tacky roadside amusment park that would most likly have games?

And how do you decide what is proper theming for a dino based themed area? It is such a broad and obscure subject, what is right or wrong.

Can you tell me the story (theme) behind AK, how DinoLand fits it and how DinoRoma fits. Basicly I think your statement is weak and I want more info.

This is for anyone to answer, I just want info not to bash scoop.

Well, a good example is the boardwalk. Carny or midway games make sense with the overall theme and the overall theme fits with the Crescent Lake resort area.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Thanks CAnn...In the NFL this would be called piling on!

I understand that you don't want carny games because you see them where you live, but what about those of us who don't? Our opinions don't count? 'DR' is a small part of WDW, how could this on a personal basis cause you such a fuss? I understand on the philosophical level (for which I was pretty well bloodied and bruised) and on the cohesive level (as it fits into AK) ...But personally you can just avoid them, can't you?

Spectro, I'm not Scoop, but I believe the argument in this case is not the attractions at 'Chester & Hesters' per se, as the whole of 'Chester & Hester' theme was actually done very well, but the point or argument is really how well does 'Chester and Hester' and in fact 'Dinorama' fit into the Animal Kingdom theme? You've got to admit (at least, even I do) that the stretch from live animals to prehistoric animals to prehistoric animals at a roadside carnival is a bit much..At least at the Boardwalk it is historical and correct in its nature...

 

[DisneyKidds]

I haven't even rode M:S yet, but I know it could have been better, cause we've been told what could have been.

Wow, talk about a miserable existence fraught with nothing but disappointment . Hey, when you win a million in the lottery will you get upset because it COULD HAVE BEEN two? Really, I know you don't live a miserable existence, but your outlook is not warranted in all cases. With DR, sure. With Kali Rapids, sure. Yeah, we can come up with more examples. M:S? Not sure it applies. Sure, anything COULD HAVE been better, but that doesn't mean it is wrong that it isn't. Heck, under your philosophy you should be disappointed with every aspect of every venue in WDW as it all COULD HAVE BEEN better. Just my opinion, but that is the wrong way too look at everything Disney related. Heck, I even agree with WFH that the key is what you do with the money, making the best use of the money. With PW it should have been the inddor coaster they wanted it to be - that would have been a better use of the money. With M:S, not withstanding that the bulk of the money went to a vendor, just because the controllers don't dictate the outcome doesn't mean they didn't make the best use of the money.

I believe the argument in this case is not the attractions at 'Chester & Hesters' per se, as the whole of 'Chester & Hester' theme was actually done very well, but the point or argument is really how well does 'Chester and Hester' and in fact 'Dinorama' fit into the Animal Kingdom theme?

Peter, while I may not be in complete agreement that the theme was done well, you hit the nail on the head. The real issue is that the whole DR theme, as good or bad as it was done, just doesn't seem to fit all that well. I'm sure it has some kind of tie in, but who really gets it?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Really Kidds, you don't think the cheesy, roadside carnival effect was pulled off well? I thought most everyone agreed that it was very well done for what it was supposed to be...Lots of tacky little detail stuff and all...I thought the complaint was that the idea itself was just too "wrong" for Disney...i.e. virtually no incarnation of this scenerio is likely to be acceptable...

 

[raidermatt]

I thought most everyone agreed that it was very well done for what it was supposed to be...Lots of tacky little detail stuff and all...I thought the complaint was that the idea itself was just too "wrong" for Disney...i.e. virtually no incarnation of this scenerio is likely to be acceptable...

That's pretty much my take.... though to DK's point, even though tacky may have been done well, it seems to be too much of a reach for the "average" guest to really "get". I don't think many get the whole concept of a carnival to fund the dig site and research going on elsewhere in Dinoland. In some cases, understanding the overall theme may not be as important, but in this case, its the only thing that explains why something so cheesy exists in what is otherwise a very "un-cheesy" park.

Scoop brings up some good points about transitions and such, but to me, really, its going to be pretty tough to try to mimic "tacky" and still have it come off as "Disney", no matter how its implemented.

For me personally, I agree that PW is fun, but it honestly doesn't have a lot of repeat value, and certainly doesn't really add anything in the "reasons to go out of my way to visit AK" category. (unlike some other things at AK). TS is the least desirable spinner of the 4 in WDW.

However, I also agree with Scoop that it won't be going anywhere in the next few years at least...

 

[Spectro is #1]

I think you seem to get what I am tring to learn. It seems to be more of an emotional feeling then fact. Although I often act on emotion myself, I like to find logic in the emotion.

Sometimes if you break it down to a simple level and ask yourself "why do I feel this way" you can come up with some true answers. (DVC LB that is why I know how I feel about MGM not being the park it once was)

Pirate it is clear that you seem to do this. If I am reading you correctly you seem to disagree with the carny games, but can logicly explain their existence.

I still don't buy the whole games are ok at Boardwalk not ok in Dino. That point has yet to be proven to me.
And when taking into account of the Crescent Lake theme then thay should move the S&D. I can't get a good picture of BWV from the BC without the S&D ruining the shot.

(I should have put this question on the debate board)

On the other hand, carny games have at best a strained fit with Dinorama and Dinorama certainly doesn't fit, as designed, with the rest of that part of the park.

stretch from live animals to prehistoric animals.

Is it the whole DinoLand that does not fit? This is the first I have heard of that?

And if that is true, Would Beastly Kingdom be even worse?

And how do you decide what is proper theming for a dino based themed area? It is such a broad and obscure subject, what is right or wrong.

Can you tell me the story (theme) behind AK, how DinoLand fits it and how DinoRoma fits. Basicly I think your statement is weak and I want more info.

Looking for answers

 

[Spectro is #1]

Something that nobody as brought up:

But what I thought was that Chester & Hester are two People sponging off of the tourists that come to the Dino Inst.
(they are down the road a bit)

PW is about Time Travel But done in a way only Chester and Hester could do it.

Thats what I see when I go and I think it fits. But I am not looking very deep into the theme.

Chester and Hesters is like International Drive after WDW.

That is why Chester & Hesters needs a go-kart track and batting cage (only kidding).

Dino was built by Chester and Hester not Disney not by the Dino Inst.