Question about carny games

[lisajl]

We were there at the end of the day.
I gave my three kids each $1.00. They tried their hand at the water game and my DD won a frog. The boys were mad, but someone won.

Would I spend a bunch of money there, no.
I am there for other thrills, I have my fill of carny games at our local fair.

Lisa

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

About the carnival games.

We were watching my two year old niece while my sister and brother-in-law took their turn on Primeval Whirl. The little one has seen all the pictures of her mommy playing basketball, and, bolstered by the confidence of a two year old whose Daddy "helps" all her living room floor shots be successful, she's sure she's got this one in the bag. I put down the money, say go ahead. The carny makes a big deal out of making sure she's "lined up" properly for each shot, gives her shooting pointers before each shot, and even, at the end a "free" shot that he helped (re: lifted the two yards remaining to the rim) into the basket, presenting her with a little stuffed snake, which appeared to be an authentic carny-supply gross-for-eleven-ninety-five, shipped, sort of item.

All his work nicely ate up the time we needed to wait; I got out of there for a single "touch."

There is no doubt a single good CM can imbue about any environ with Pure Magic.

About DinoRama "bashing"

The most criticism that was leveled at DinoRama concentrated on two areas: first, that the attraction was neither family-enough nor thrill-enough to address AK's attendance problems; second, that ordering parking-lot-carnival rides and parking-lot-carnival games from authentic parking-lot-carnival suppliers was somewhat "less-than-Disney" in terms of theming and story-telling.

At this point, Disney themselves agree with the first part of the "bash," and has announced E:E to address precisely the same problem DinoRama was supposed to address. As far as the second point, well, that's a matter of personal judgement, I suppose.

Would it be slanderous to suggest that, based on his suggestions for improving PW, perhaps even Peter Pirate agrees, at this point, that the second part of the "bash" contains some truth?

As far as I can see, the people who were "bashing" DinoRama "back in the day" have been proven correct in many of their "bashes:" DinoRama has not measureably improved attendance at Animal Kingdom, it has not been received as "tradionally Disney" nor directly successful in any financial way, and they're still looking to have to build a coaster (re:spend more money) to breathe life into the flaccid park.

I mean, perhaps I'm the one using "bashing" incorrectly: judging from Peter Pirate's post, I begin to infer that "bashing" has a practical DIS definition (DISinition?) of "making the accurate but locally unpopular statement that Disney's business is in the $#!++&^ due to Disney's own choices."

 

[mitros]

Just an afterthought, last May at the AK. a CM had suggested that these "carny" games where very temporary, that they were put there to take up space until they build another "ride" I never heard this anywhere before, and allowing for CMs "stretching" of the truth to the point of breaking it, I actually don't believe it. Yes, I know this should be in the rumors area, but while reading this post, I recalled that conversation with the CM. I think I actually forced the truth stretch by complaining to the CM that I thought that Walt did not like carny games, and he told me what I wanted to hear. What do you know, I made a post and answered it myself! .........never mind!

 

[me4disney]

My children(9,7,2) love the dinosaur area. They also played games last year when we visited, the 2 older children each played 3 games and won a prize for themselves and their little brother. They were tickled with the animals and because they won, we didn't have to spend a fortune on other souvenirs that day.

 

[grinningghost]

Wow. I guess I'm on both sides of the fence on this. I haven't yet seen the carny rides and games, since I haven't been to AK since 2000.

I don't know about anyone else, but the typical carny worker scares the living daylights out of me I wouldn't care to meet one in a dark alley, yada, yada.

If Disney can present their carny rides and games with clean, decent, normal CM's, that might make all the difference to me. I suppose I'll find out at the end of August, and then maybe I can give an honest opinion.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I have never said Dinorama was a good move. It was very obvious to me that it was a last ditch effort to please people for peanuts...It didn't work. It should have been obvious to more than a few "geniuses" that it wouldn't work, but yet there it is.

Now that it's been there and not providing any relief for the perceived ailments of AK they were forced to reevaluate the situation and hence "E:E" has been announced. No doubt the equally poor decisions made with DCA has affected recent judgement as well.

But now we have a pretty nice looking Park with some added 'A' and 'B' ticket attractions, anxiously awaiting a stunning 'E' ticket. Will this be enough to pull AK from the doldrums? I suggest many will say no but I believe it will (knowing full well my opinion is skewed because of the fondness I already have for the Park).

Lastly is the CM instead of the carny issue...We pretty much all like and respect most CM's...Enough said...

So, yes, I agree that the 'bashers' were right in their initial assesment that DR did not fulfill what Disney had hoped...The rub is that, IMO, we, the guest, will be better off with 'DR' and 'E:E' instead of just 'E:E' which is ALL AK would have received it were given first...

 

[hopemax]

The1950-60's guest very well may have LOVED them and that's great, as I have no problem with it but apparantely lots and lots of 2003 guests are enjoying the games, PW & TS...Certainly not the Waltophiles or purists and Dinorama is never going to be mistaken with 'The Tree Of Life' to be sure, but what makes one catagorization correct and the other incorrect?

Okay, let me try this again. Let's say X = percentage of guests who look at the attraction and think, "Wow, that's cheesy/I'd never expect to Disney to stoop so low." Y = percentage of guests enjoying the attraction.

I believe that few of the people in 1950's and 1960's were X's. I believe that there are significantly more X's with regards to the carny games in Dinorama. Y ends up being irrelevant.

And I think it's possible that in 100 years or more that carny games will have disappeared from the American landscape, and then Disney could add the games, because they would be greeted by fascination, not derision. But today is not yet that day. I also think an 1855 DL shouldn't have had a Shooting Gallery, shooting a gun in 1855 was hardly a unique experience. "Why do I want to shoot at a fake target, I shot a deer for dinner last week?" And frankly, I think the current electronic shooting gallery has outlived its welcome. Shooting laser beams at targets isn't very unique either.

Oh, I forgot to ask, do you think Disney Quest is cheesy? (arcade environment entertainment at an additional price)

So does the separating money from the guests quote extend to gift shops as well?

Well, first the quote was "milking the pocketbook," which implies exploitation. Simply offering a product in exchange for money, is not inherantly "milking the customer," is it? Doesn't it come down to the price of the product offered and quality of said product? For the record, I do think there is some milking going on when it comes to Disney's gift shops and restaurants, and I'm not any happier about that than the carny games. Of course, Disney falls back on the "other theme parks do it," reasoning, to which I will refer back to my first post in this thread.

 

[Peter Pirate]

I've never been to Disney Quest so I have no opinion.

 

[KNWVIKING]

I've seen more then my share of cheesey carny games and the ones at AK don't fall into that catagory. They are not "rigged" or dishonest. Most are games of skill. You can very easily win a little piece of fluff that kids,(or girlfriends) love to get. The CM's are typical Disney quality CM's. They don't hassel or entice guests to play. They are just good,clean fun. Nothing more,nothing less.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

For this post only, I’m going to ignore all the posts afterwards and try to answer just the main question. I think it is very important and I am easily distracted!! So….

Spectro is #1. A valid question. And one that cuts to the very heart of the Disney philosophy. So, let’s take it slow and we’ll see where we wind up.

I often see threads about how tacky the carny games are in AK.

Tacky is way too subjective. Yes. I think they are tacky. You may think they represent great art. Or may be the ultimate in family fun. Now here’s the real hard part to grasp. Many miss it. Scoop has a hard time sometimes, but Mr. Kidds finally got it (my friend the Pirate NEVER got it and won’t even try anymore!). It doesn’t matter what you or I or even the long lost Captain thinks!! The only thing that matters is how it fits into the philosophy. The “Disney” philosophy! The WALT “Disney” philosophy!!!

Now you may ask yourself (as I did three or four years ago) how the heck we find out what Walt intended. Or more important why it even matters for today’s Disney. OK. Second question first. It is important, no, critical because it is the very foundation of all the fan loyalty this company enjoys. It is what made this company what it is today. Quite simply, it is what made all the money.

It is NOT, contrary to popular belief, the creation of Pirates of the Caribbean (both ride and film). It is NOT the Tower of Terror. And it is NOT even Snow White. It is the philosophical beliefs behind those things that made the company great. It is the standards and doctrines that Walt created that built up the unbelievable and unparallel fan loyalty that the company enjoys today. If we can agree on this, we can move on.

The second bit seems a bit trickier, but is actually easier. We have a wealth of information regarding Walt. There are volumes describing in detail the ‘whys’ of the way he thought. There’s entire book of quotes that deal with virtually every subject imaginable. And if we really get stuck there’s Disneyland, his film work, WDW and to a certain extent EPCOT that we can derive a whole bunch of answers from.

OK!! So now we know why it is important and we know where to look for answers. I think it’s time to get specific. Just what does the philosophy say about those games!?!?

Well, Hope is EXACTLY right. Let’s look at the quote again:

"A word may be said in regard to the concept and conduct of Disneyland’s operational tone. Although various sections will have the fun and flavor of a carnival or amusement park, there will be none of the ‘pitches,’ game wheels, sharp practices and devices designed to milk the visitor’s pocketbook"

Now for my money this paragraph alone is enough to give these games the deep six. As you delve deeper into the creation of Disneyland you’ll find how absolutely deplorable Walt found these kinds of things. How these “Carnival” things (among others) was the very reason he was motivated to built Disneyland. And how he wouldn’t allow their essence anywhere near his Disneyland.

Some people think this is the end of Disney.

No. Not that alone. If this were truly the only slip from the philosophy I would play the games every day and donate all my plush winnings to Peter Pirate’s Benevolent Fund for Retired Seafarers. As it is these games are only indicative of the decline of the company through the wanton disregard of Walt’s philosophy. Everything from the Mega-Conglomerate mentality to the sequels (Cinderella XVII – The prince and ugly step sister number two) to the cheap carnival games just point to the demise of a once great company.

does anyone complain about the carny games at Bush Gardens or at USF.
Both have had carny games before Disney.

The flip answer is – SO WHAT!?!?!

The real answer is – SO WHAT!?!? What in the world does Busch Gardens or USF have to do with Disney?!!?! I’m sorry to be condescending, but can someone tell me how this is important? How the philosophy and standards of another amusement park could possible make any difference whatsoever to how Disney should operate?? I really don’t get it!!!

They also have rides without a theme and rude employees. Does that make it OK for Disney? Sure bring beer into the MK, they’re all doing it!! Yes!! Just build the damned rollercoaster!! Forget about the story. Forget about a theme. Just do it like that place in Tampa!! Or heck!! Let’s just settle for 6 Flags!! It sure is easier than living up to Disney standards!!

I like the spinner coaster, am I the only one?

I like them too. But not in Disney!! Can you start to see the difference?


Peter!! Old friend!! How have you been? Feeling your oats lately I see.

Many Disney purists think they know exactly what Walt would and wouldn't do and pass judgement on everything and anything.

Anyone in particular you had in mind?

I can see I’ve been away too long. I may have to come around more often!!! Thanks for the motivation, my friend!!! Give my regards to the Captain!!!

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by DVC-Landbaron


The real answer is – SO WHAT!?!? What in the world does Busch Gardens or USF have to do with Disney?!!?! I’m sorry to be condescending, but can someone tell me how this is important? How the philosophy and standards of another amusement park could possible make any difference whatsoever to how Disney should operate?? I really don’t get it!!!

It's just a tatic this is more proof (for any of the scoopable types) that people will use USF or anothe park to take the heat of Disney.

Great post as usual Baron!

 

[OnWithTheShow]

Thank god the Baron still checks in now and again.

 

[DisneyKidds]

I agree that the 'bashers' were right in their initial assesment that DR did not fulfill what Disney had hoped

I can agree with that, but what did they really want to accomplish with DR? Let's not get carried away with the aspirations even Disney could have had for this area.

Stopgap measure to attract some new guests, or give the guests who were there less reason to complain "not enough to do"? Absolutely. Please people for peanuts? Sure. Be an E-ticket attendance savior for DAK? No way, not even if PW was an indoor dark ride. I highly doubt PW and the whole DR area was ever realistically intended to be a project the scope of EE.

At this point, Disney themselves agree with the first part of the "bash," and has announced E:E to address precisely the same problem DinoRama was supposed to address.

While both DR and EE were intended to addres attendance issue, I just don't see that they were intended to do it in the same way. Are you suggesting that if DR had a positive impact on attendance that we wouldn't be seeing EE? While I won't say that is wildly misrepresenting the truth, I just don't see it that way. Then again, I could be wrong.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Spectro,you must forgive Baron, he still believes that he and a few others qualify to judge "Walt's philosophy" more than the rest of us.

You see, most historical recounts of Walt's life indicate that he would have never built anymore theme parks. He did DL and acquiesed only on 'Magic Kingdom' in order to finance his next and biggest dream, EPCOT. But of course Walt died and his brother and the other lackies had never developed the ladership ability or moxie to take on such a new, different and risky project as EPCOT was to have been. So they did what they were capable of doing - built a theme park (really Walt was the boss, there was one boss and the others weren't there as apprentices but as facilitators which showed when it was their turn to "lead".)

So now here I am being told once again that it's the "Walt Disney Philosophy" that should guide parks when, as has been pointed out to Mr. Baron numerous times, there is no such manifesto... But there is a book of quotes which practically anyone can thumb through to find a quote that might justify or debunk any cicumstance they may find themselves in...Try to ignore the fact that virtually all of the quotes used here are out of context.

So how does this fit into carny games at AK...Simple, Walt gave a vague quote that, if took literally and verbatum in the context of this discussion many years after his death, it can be determined that he specifically hated carny games...Whew! Add to that the changes in time, structure and needs of the Company and you can pretty much see that aside from a very basic philosophy, "What would Walt do?" is pretty irrelevent in today's arguments and discussions...But of course statements like this portry me as a Walt hater, which I am not. I love what he gave us, I just don't feel empowered enough to interpret his feelings based on the readings of his life.

One more time I wish to ask a general question. If we had been given a choice for AK of (1) Expedition Everest within 3 years or (2) Dino Rama now & E:E a couple years later, which would be the better choice for the AK guest? Would one stand on principal Landbaron and boldly say "I'd take #1,because it is not in the Walt Philoophy to have DinoRama at AK under any circumstances???

Lastly, let me commend Hopemax. Her argument and response to me in the "Arcade" vien (including the use of the quote) is very good and makes her point quite clearly. Believe me Hope, your post has me thinking...

PS It really isn't very fair, or respectful for you guys to comment behind ones back, as it were. I thought that perhaps when addessing me you could stick to the forum I post in. Thanks to my friend who for letting me know this was happening...Again.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate

One more time I wish to ask a general question. If we had been given a choice for AK of (1) Expedition Everest within 3 years or (2) Dino Rama now & E:E a couple years later, which would be the better choice for the AK guest? Would one stand on principal Landbaron and boldly say "I'd take #1,because it is not in the Walt Philoophy to have DinoRama at AK under any circumstances???

YOu act is if those are the only choices in the matter. I'd take EE first and saved money thrown at DinoRama for a couple of qualty B attractions to go along with EE.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

And now the conversation turns away from the original point and focuses on my good friend – The Pirate!!

You see, most historical recounts of Walt's life indicate that he would have never built anymore theme parks. He did DL and acquiesced only on 'Magic Kingdom' in order to finance his next and biggest dream, EPCOT.

Mr. Pirate. Again, and without any condescension – SO WHAT!?!?!

But of course Walt died and his brother and the other lackeys had never developed the leadership ability or moxie to take on such a new, different and risky project as EPCOT was to have been.

Am I to understand that Roy was a ‘lackey’?? WOW!!! I had never heard that before!!

So they did what they were capable of doing - built a theme park (really Walt was the boss, there was one boss and the others weren't there as apprentices but as facilitators which showed when it was their turn to "lead".)

So Roy’s ‘leadership, which gave us the original WDW, was less than stellar, in your opinion? Again – WOW!!! I had not heard that before!!!

So now here I am being told once again that it's the "Walt Disney Philosophy" that should guide parks when, as has been pointed out to Mr. Baron numerous times, there is no such manifesto...

Not only the parks, Mr. Pirate. But in every venture that Disney undertakes. Attractions, Restaurants, Fast food stands, Mall Stores, Films, Animation, even GO.COM!! EVERYTHING!! Sadly it is something that virtually everyone else understands. Even Mr. Kidds and Scoop. They don’t always agree on some of the finer points, but I think you’ll find consciences that there is indeed (or should be at least) a “Disney” philosophy.

But there is a book of quotes which practically anyone can thumb through to find a quote that might justify or debunk any circumstances they may find themselves in...

A challenge for you, Peter. Find me a quote which justifies the games!! I lay you 100 to 1 odds it can’t be done!!

Try to ignore the fact that virtually all of the quotes used here are out of context.

I disagree!! The quote Hope cited and I used again was exactly in context. It is the philosophy of practices within Disneyland. And Carnival games were specifically mentioned and totally excluded. He didn’t want them. Plain and simple. He didn’t want them because it runs contrary to his way of thinking what an amusement park should be. Or put another way, they were exactly the type of thing that gave amusement parks a bad name. And he didn’t want them. In any way, shape or form.

I’m interested. I f you think the quote is out of context, why don’t you tell us what context it should be in. Explain it all for us. Tell us what it means.

So how does this fit into carny games at AK...Simple, Walt gave a vague quote that, if took literally and verbatim in the context of this discussion many years after his death, it can be determined that he specifically hated carny games...

Never mind the above. If I would have read ahead I would have seen you DO understand!!

Add to that the changes in time, structure and needs of the Company and you can pretty much see that aside from a very basic philosophy, "What would Walt do?" is pretty irrelevant in today's arguments and discussions...

How can that be irrelevant when it is this very philosophy that generated all the passion felt on this site (and all the other hundreds). When it is the concept which brought in all the bucks in the first? From Snow White to EPCOT, this philosophy can be cited as the driving force.

What philosophy should replace it? Ei$ner’s!?!? The “Where’s mine?” philosophy? The, “anything for a buck” philosophy? Or maybe we shouldn’t have any guiding principles at all. HEY!! That’s kind of like Ei$ner too!!

So, tell me Peter, what’s your philosophy on Disney. You’re good at knocking Walt’s philosophy. What do you replace it with?

If we had been given a choice for AK of (1) Expedition Everest within 3 years or (2) Dino Rama now & E:E a couple years later, which would be the better choice for the AK guest? Would one stand on principal Landbaron and boldly say "I'd take #1,because it is not in the Walt Philosophy to have DinoRama at AK under any circumstances???

Asked and answered. See!!! You can understand it if you try!!!!

I thought that perhaps when addressing me you could stick to the forum I post in.

Nothing is stopping you from signing up and posting in the other, less congested, site. I’m hoping you will (it took you long enough!!!!!!!)

Looking forward to talking to you again, my friend!!!








In either place!!!

 

[Peter Pirate]

A bit more combative than in the past...

So what?

The only reason the Magic Kingdom was built, as far as Walt was concerned, was financial. He needed it too move on. He didn't care about it and didn't want to build it but he did, although he spent little time on the MK itself (according to legend)...I'm sure you can see how this fits into the argument, can't you? If not I'll elaborate. Walt didn't even follow the Disney Philosophy. He did it for monetary reasons.

Am I to understand that Roy was a lackey?

Not so much so, as his job was pretty much laid out. But as for leadership and imagination there was obviously no one even remotly ready to leave the current shoes they were filling, as imaginative as they were on their particular scale it was 'do-do' compared to the breadth of Walt's realm.

WDW...less than stellar in your opinion.

Not in mine, but in Walt's. It was a copy and you know how he felt about copies. Let's just say in the same words as many a car threeper, "It could have been better." - Now for the humor challenged amongst us (not you Landbaron) this WAS a typical Pirate tounge in cheek comment...

Not only the parks, Mr. Pirate. But in every venture that Disney undertakes.

Now I say, with all due respect, so what? We're talking about Park standards here but the circular thinking Hope spoke of seems to be in play by you...But if you must, those sponsorship deals that Walt started right from the beginning sure were magical. I know they were necessary but that doesn't change the fact that it wasn't up to the standards you subscribe to...Or is this another 'free pass' scenerio?

A challenge for you Peter...

Oh my...The last time you challenged was regarding whether Eisner had EVER given anything without a profit motive attached to the parks...As I recall I had 3 or 4 and you even admitted it. I'll attempt to do it again.

I disagree. The quote Hope cited and I used again was exactly in context.

Well...I DISAGREE!!! How can you know the breadth and scope of the experience Walt was speaking of at that particular time so very long ago. I readily admit that maybe he really did hate 'games', but I also accept the distinct possibility that he disliked the games in their currently presented format. That he chose not to include them bodes well for your (and Hopes) argument I concur but it is no way a piece of concrete, stamped in blood proof. Can't you guys even fathom the other POV?

...the philosophy that should be replaced is Eisners.

I agree. Landbaron. I AGREE. The fact that it has nothing to do with this argument notwithstanding and for the third time I AGREE!

Asked and answered.

Well, I knew it was coming but I still can't believe it. You'd rather have items taken out or never given because they don't meet your vision of Walt's standards. Well, you know what. They don't meet my vision of WDW standards either, but they are there. They are fulfilling a need and all in all, at this point in time in 2003, I'd rather have them there, up and running than closed and removed only to have the space sit vacant like '20000 Leagues'...

Nothing is stopping you from signing up and posting on the other less congested site.

Yes, there is and you are fully aware of that.

 

[KNWVIKING]

Walt saw all the bad aspects of carny games back then and rightfully so thought it best to exclude them from his park. But the games themselves were not the evil,it was the people who owned and operated them. The games at AK are nothing like the sleazy games I remember from my youth at county fairs and the Jersey shore, ( the basketball actually fits thru the hoop). The CM's aren't barking out to kids walking by,enticing them to "give it a try". Read the previous post about the CM who made sure the 2 yr old won at the basketball game.Even the prizes themselve are not meant to entice the guest. The prize is not the reason DW and I will sit down at the water pistol game, the bragging rights are what matter to us. I remember the county fair games that had the bright and shiney mini-bike on display, "hey kid,give it a try,take home the bike". NOBODY ever won that bike. Disney's games are more about the smiles on the kids faces when they win a stuffed snake. I don't believe they are intended as profit centers.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by KNWVIKING
Disney's games are more about the smiles on the kids faces when they win a stuffed snake. I don't believe they are intended as profit centers.

This would be the first under Eisners reign. Not intended to be profit centers...maybe they aren't in reality...just like many of Eisners ideas but they sure were intended to make money.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Peter, old friend!!

Wow
A bit more combative than in the past...

Not at all!! Maybe I didn’t use the proper amount of smilies!! Here, is this better:


I don’t know about you, but I feel better!!! (Sorry AV!!)

The only reason the Magic Kingdom was built, as far as Walt was concerned, was financial.

You’re missing the point my friend. In this particular case it doesn’t matter WHY. What matters is that they stuck to the philosophy when they built it. Did they live by the doctrine: “Give the people everything you can give them”? I think most people will agree they did. Maybe you really do believe:

It was a copy and you know how he felt about copies. Let's just say in the same words as many a car threeper, "It could have been better."

Maybe it isn’t tongue in cheek. It sure seems that you like to use this refrain over and over again. “Let’s forgive the current idiots cause Walt was a moron too!!!” Now I know you don’t really believe it. But it is how you come off by making some of these ridiculous statements.

Walt didn't even follow the Disney Philosophy. He did it for monetary reasons.

How CRAZY can you get, Peter!?!?! Why do you think Disneyland was started!?!? MONITARY REASONS!!! Walt needed a steady stream of cash to carry his studio from one animation project to the next. He was tired of the ‘feast or famine” type of lifestyle he and his brother were living. He needed income!! Steady income!!! So, he thought how this might be accomplished. And his “dream” of a Walt-type amusement park was a natural. Chances are that if he was extremely comfortable in his movie making, we might not have ever seen Disneyland. It would have been the musings of some eccentric rich guy in the movie business.

Peter!!!! Wake up!!!! ( so you know I still love you!!) The ONLY thing that’s matters is HOW they built it!!! Did they do it right? If not, they shouldn’t have done it at all!!!

I disagree. The quote Hope cited and I used again was exactly in context.

Well...I DISAGREE!!!

FINALLY!!! Something I really can’t take issue with!! Thank you!!

How can you know the breadth and scope of the experience Walt was speaking of at that particular time so very long ago.

Because in all my reading of the man, and in all my understanding of Disney, I have never (NEVER!!!) seen anything to counter that position. Have you? Is there something out there that I’m not aware of? Let me know.

I readily admit that maybe he really did hate 'games', but I also accept the distinct possibility that he disliked the games in their currently presented format. That he chose not to include them bodes well for your (and Hopes) argument I concur but it is no way a piece of concrete, stamped in blood proof. Can't you guys even fathom the other POV?

Sure!! We’re not total morons, whatever you may think!!! Sure we can fathom it. It’s just so anti-Disney that we discount it immediately!! Evidently you don’t. Fine!! But please don’t try to tell me, or infer, that Walt would have approved of them!! Please don’t do that!!!! It’s an insult to both of us!!

I agree. Landbaron. I AGREE. The fact that it has nothing to do with this argument notwithstanding and for the third time I AGREE!

Ah! My dear Pirate!!! It has everything to do with it!! You see, those games fit in very nicely with Ei$ner’s philosophy. You know, “Anything for a buck”. But they run contrary to Walt’s. So when someone so vehemently defends these Anti-Walt ideals, one cannot help thinking that “the defender” has embraced the Evil one’s charter? Does that make sense? I’m sorry if that’s not the case. But come on!!! Cut me a little slack!!! Other than good old Scoop, you’re the biggest defender of the current regime I know!!

You'd rather have items taken out or never given because they don't meet your vision of Walt's standards. Well, you know what. They don't meet my vision of WDW standards either, but they are there.

Do you have any idea how silly that sounds? You allow that they don’t meet my standards, you concede that they don’t meet Walt’s standards, and you even admit that they don’t meet your own standards!! Yet!! Yet!! They are there, so we will embrace and defend the decision to put them there!! Do I have that right?

They are fulfilling a need and all in all, at this point in time in 2003, I'd rather have them there, up and running than closed and removed only to have the space sit vacant like '20000 Leagues'...

Read EUROPA’s second to last post. PERFECT!!!!

Yes, there is and you are fully aware of that.

I may be playing a bit obtuse, but… No! I am not aware. You have my e-mail, or PM me. I would have thought you’d have been there a long time ago!