Question about carny games

[Peter Pirate]

pectro #1

Did we miss something Baron? ... Pssst, it's the 'S'...

The definitive Landbaron answer is - - - maybe.

Hard to believe as it is, I actually agree. We could never know what avenue Walt would have taken, but in today's market it is true that a coaster park would have wide appeal... I am not certain it would have enough appeal to a demographic that Walt would have been reaching for though...So "maybe" really is a good answer.

Then Peter and others will defend it.

Well, the agreement couldn't last long. Yes, I would defend it. I have no problem with beer at MK even if Walt did. He was projecting something in his day and targeting a demographic and feeling that I don't think legitimately exists today. With this being said though, I am not a strong proponent of making this change either. I don't consider it a mistake or bad and the status quo is just fine with me...

Planogirl, I believe that what you said is 100% correct. His opinions and views of the worlds (theme park; movie; general entertainment) needs would have certainly evolved. I for one think there would have been nothing further than the MK and a 'City of the Future' had Walt still been a young man...But still it's only conjecture on my part and I could just as easily be wrong as right...

Demosthenes, although we have never crossed paths before I humbly thank you for you kind statement of opinion. I am neither a fan of fabrication nor confrontation but debating with friends can be fun.

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
I for one think there would have been nothing further than the MK and a 'City of the Future' had Walt still been a young man...But still it's only conjecture on my part and I could just as easily be wrong as right...

So you think he would have built MK and EPCOT and then just stopped? Nothing more? No other bright ideas in his head? He would have never have tried to improve on MK?

 

[Peter Pirate]

Europa, basically thats right but it's too simplistic. The 'City of the Future' WOULD have taken the rest of his life no matter how old he was, IMO...For his dream was an ever evolving, actual working city. I don't see how he would ever have walked away from that (or wul have had the desire to).

As for MK, it would have been updated on schedule of course and maintained to Walt's standards, which were definately different from what has happend since...

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Europa, basically thats right but it's too simplistic. The 'City of the Future' WOULD have taken the rest of his life no matter how old he was, IMO...For his dream was an ever evolving, actual working city. I don't see how he would ever have walked away from that (or wul have had the desire to).

I think it's short sighted to think that EPCOT would not also include one of Walts great loves. Theme Parks that is.... I could have seen MK evolving into a much larger park and additional parks being built within Epcot. Remember EPCOT was going to be an all encompassed city so the benefits of the city were for those people that lived in the city.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Shortsighted? Perhaps...Truthfully though, I hadn't taken it that far. But IMO theme parks were not one of his great loves. Film making was and apparantely EPCOT was. DL was a step in his evolvement...A big step I grant you and a huge one for all of us...But I don't see him getting excited about a basic theme park again...But hey this is just my opinion and all speculation anyway, right?

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
Shortsighted? Perhaps...Truthfully though, I hadn't taken it that far. But IMO theme parks were not one of his great loves. Film making was and apparantely EPCOT was. DL was a step in his evolvement...A big step I grant you and a huge one for all of us...But I don't see him getting excited about a basic theme park again...But hey this is just my opinion and all speculation anyway, right?

You keep trying to revert and tear down what Walt had accomplished. Walt loved his theme parks. Walt always wanted to continue and improve on his ideas. You can't call what Walt did basic! Anything he built would have been better then before just as MK was better then DL although largely copied due to many reasons. Walt loved to create weather it was theme parks, films or new cities. To use your idea once he started building EPCOT he would have also stopped making films. I don't think that is the case either.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Europa, you are reading too much into my statements.

You keep trying to revert and tear down what Walt accomplished.

No I'm not. Walt was a genius and without him much of the joy we have in our lives would not exist.

Walt loved his theme parks.

YES he did. He loved HIS theme park, Disneyland. He died before MK was finished and it is well known that MK was not a priority of his...I do not think he loved MK.

You can't call what Walt did basic.

I didn't! I said he WOULD NOT BE INTERESTED IN BUILDING A BASIC THEME PARK. He had already built a masterpiece (Disneyland) and approved a quality replica (MK). To build another 'theme park' would be redundent in Walt's world. It would be repeating what he had already done. I don't believe Walt would want to build a basic themepark although if he did we know it would be quality through and through.

To use your idea once he started building EPCOT he would also have to stop making films.

Walt had ALREADY stopped making films. They were on automatic pilot just like DL. Walt invented it, set it up and moved on. This was his nature and had he been able to build EPCOT I truly believe that this would have been his lifes work...

Walt was a great man and a genius but he was never one to sit still...

 

[EUROPA]

Originally posted by Peter Pirate
I don't believe Walt would want to build a basic themepark although if he did we know it would be quality through and through.
Walt had ALREADY stopped making films. They were on automatic pilot just like DL. Walt invented it, set it up and moved on. This was his nature and had he been able to build EPCOT I truly believe that this would have been his lifes work...

Walt was a great man and a genius but he was never one to sit still...

Who other then Eisner and you is talking about Walt bulding a basic theme park. Nothing he did was basic and if built another it would not be basic.

Walt was involved(not in the Eisner way either) in every move made up until Jungle Book. So I don't know what your talking about when you say he stopped making films.

Yes he was not one to sit still so why would he sit still on his theme parks?

 

[Spectro is #1]

Personaly I think if EPCOT was built to be a city like walt wanted, it most likely would have faild. (just MHO. No facts.)

But I think Peter is right that Epcot (as it was ment to be), would have been Walts only focuse.

Whenever I see that film of him standing next to that huge hand drawn map of the "Florida Project". I see Walt beeming and with a pasionate gleam in his eye.

And Sega was in Epcot 94. When the first Innoventions opened.

 

[Spectro is #1]

I know you can't pin this on Walt but given this quote, what are your thoughts on MGM.

USH has been giving tours before talkies. People were given a box lunch after paying a fee, and permitted to watch movies being made.

This lasted until sound in movies made this imposable. Guided tours started after that and it kinda became a theme park before Walt invented it.

I know that US did not intend to build a theme park, but once established, wouldn't Disney be the ones simply improving a concept?
And if I rember correctly, USF annouced their park first but ME rushed MGM to be sure it was finished first.

Just your thoughts.

But is has to made clear that Disney is the trend setter. NOT the follower! They do what they do because they are guided by a unique business doctrine I refer to as the Philosophy. And just because theme park X does such and such does NOT give license to Disney to do the same!! Hence my example about beer in the Magic Kingdom.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Random Thoughts................

On carny games and "the quote"..................

There are two ways of looking at this quote.......

A word may be said in regard to the concept and conduct of Disneyland’s operational tone. Although various sections will have the fun and flavor of a carnival or amusement park, there will be none of the ‘pitches,’ game wheels, sharp practices and devices designed to milk the visitor’s pocketbook

One focus would be on the 'pitches', game wheels, and devices themselves. Another focus would be on the design to milk the visitors pocketbook. I don't know what Walt's true intent was, but it could just be possible that his distaste wasn't necessarily with the games themselves, but the method in which they were used in the past.

A question on such games at WDW...................how do you feel about the existence of a few of these at the BW? To recreate the Atlantic City Boardwalk you would need such things. Is it ok to have them if they are truely intended to fit a theme as opposed to milk the pocketbook? I think the carny games at the AK contribute to the theme. I don't like the theme, but they do contribute. I think they should make every player a winner, as the did in WFH's case.

On sponsorships.........................

the important thing is ultimately "what you do with the money."

I must concede that this is a good point.

On selective Philosophy.......................

The Pirate has a decent point as well. If Walt followed his own Philosophy then the MK in the Florida Project never would have been. From there it really doesn't matter if the Philosophy was followed in the implementation of the park, unless one concedes that there is indeed an acceptable time and place to violate the Philosophy. Did Walt himself start the slippery slope? If the theme park sequel was an acceptable violation, who's to say what else would have been acceptable?

On having to make certain sacrifices to the gods of capitalism.............

I just don't see how it was ok for Walt to compromise his beliefs/Philosophy do this, but it isn't ok for WDW post-Walt to do this. Walt and those who came after him were all trying to manage a very complex entity. Even Walt didn't handcuff himself by the Philosophy, so why should everyone after him have to? Not that I agree with how everything post-Walt was implemented, but that doesn't you mean you can discount any concept that Walt hadn't yet thought of or tackled.

That's all for now...............................

 

[mitros]

Diane Disney was asked what she thought her father would have done if he had lived. Her reply was that he was already beyond theme parks and movies. These things were on automatic pilot as was eluded to here in an earlier post. She said that his next dream was to build cities without all of the problems of cities back then. Thus, his ideas for the prototype community, {EPCOT} were his next dreams. The original plans for epcot were quite extensive in their scope. as to wheather or not his ideas would have worked is anyones guess. I guess we will never know.

 

[Peter Pirate]

Thank U, mitros!!!

 

[raidermatt]

I've just been hanging around the periphery of this admittedly interesting, if not sometimes disappointing, exchange, but I do want to make a few comments.

If Walt followed his own Philosophy then the MK in the Florida Project never would have been. From there it really doesn't matter if the Philosophy was followed in the implementation of the park, unless one concedes that there is indeed an acceptable time and place to violate the Philosophy. Did Walt himself start the slippery slope? If the theme park sequel was an acceptable violation, who's to say what else would have been acceptable?

Every single person who has posted on this thread believes they can judge what would have been acceptable. Its just a question of where the line is drawn. To go back to a oft-used example, if instead of Dinorama, Disney had built a well-themed mini-land called Pornotown, USA, every single person here would say this was not acceptable.

The whole argument that Walt made a violation, so therefore nothing else can be called a violation just can't hold up.

Further, there is the rather obvious issue of WHY Walt made certain exceptions, vs. why current management doesn't even hold to the philosophy in the first place. We all know why Walt made exceptions such as MK, the post WWII compilations, etc. Is anyone REALLY suggesting that current management is just as passionate about the Disney philosophy as Walt was (or even close), but simply built Carny games for the same reason Walt made Saludos Amigos... for survival?

And even further yet, one piece of Walt's philosophy seemed to be "if you're going to do it, do it right"*. So yes, the compilations and MK were not what he really wanted to do, but the effort was still made to make them as good as they could be. That's why we got the MK, and not DCA '71.

Its one thing to say that there are some hard to figure lines out there, but quite another to say the lines cannot exist.


*In an effort to avoid Quotegate II.... No, this is not a direct quote, but rather my own application of a well-known phrase that, based soley on my own judgement, fits in perfectly with Walt's SOP.

 

[Walt's Frozen Head]

From there it really doesn't matter if the Philosophy was followed in the implementation of the park, unless one concedes that there is indeed an acceptable time and place to violate the Philosophy. Did Walt himself start the slippery slope? If the theme park sequel was an acceptable violation, who's to say what else would have been acceptable?

Well said.

In a certain manner of speaking, you're dead right, Walt made his own steps towards and on the initial grades of the slippery slope... his vision was such that making it real required some kind of compromise. I tend to forgive the "theme park redux" violation for two reasons, first, I still honestly believe there was a largely creative/user experience thrust to buying all the land: I think the desire to "if we're doing it again, we're doing it better than the first time" was palpable, and that that does serve a creative goal.

Beyond that, I believe the point "it's what you do with the money" is hidden under many of the details we evaluate. Building an improved version of your biggest hit so as to generate cash to fund the creation of your new project with the more significant technology and scope... in a larger sense, that seems to serve a pretty creative goal, too.

Not that I agree with how everything post-Walt was implemented, but that doesn't you mean you can discount any concept that Walt hadn't yet thought of or tackled.

I guess what I'm saying ties up into "it's what you do with the money." Walt's Disney, for better or worse, for spectacular failure and phenomenal success, Walt's Disney was about bringing new and better experiences to people... a creative goal. He certainly had financial goals along the way, but taking a step back from the details of each decision, the financial goals, in my opinion, clearly existed in service of the financial goals.

In Eisner's Disney, when you take a step back, the creative goals, in my opinion, clearly exist inservice of the financial goals.

I say that's the heart of the difference between Walt's philosophy and Eisner's philosophy, as I have estimated them from their respective bodies of work; and that a change in the Company's basic philosophy is the only controllable factor that could possibly affect Disney's downward financial spiral.

 

[mitros]

I think I should be left out of your blanket "every single person" term ,as my post merely quoted what was said by walt disneys daughter some years after his death. If I'm not mistaken, this interview can be seen on-line at the disney family museum sight. Thanks

 

[raidermatt]

Really, Mitros? Based on your own judgement, you don't feel comfortable saying that Pornotown, USA would have been inappropriate based on Disney philosophy? Because that's all I'm saying.... that you DO feel you can judge, at least at some level. You may feel there are huge amounts of gray area, but still, a judgement has to made by somebody, somewhere.

 

[Spectro is #1]

Just telling DVC, please look on page 5 for a question I had for you. It has now been buried.

 

[mitros]

Sorry, I don't follow.

 

[Spectro is #1]

sorry mitros:

I posted a question for DVC Land Baron in responce to a post of his. I wanted to be sure he looked at it if he jumped to the last post.