Prop 8 overturned in California

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Read the opinion (I did). The judge isn't "making law" here. He's applying about 50 years of well-established legal precedent to the facts of the case before him. In Loving v. Virginia the Supreme Court identified marriage as a fundamental Constitutional right. As a fundamental right, states must make that right equally available to all citizens, under the 14th amendment. The Loving court struck down laws prohibiting marriages between people of different races.

In this case, the judge applied the same principles and held that prohibiting same sex marriage impermissibly infringes on the right to marry on the basis of gender. The state was given the chance to argue to the court an important governmental interest that would be advanced by the prohibition. The judge ruled that the evidence of such an interest was insufficient to justify the intrusion on the Constitutional rights of same sex couples.

There was nothing groundbreaking about the legal reasoning. It was a quite conventional application of existing law to the facts before the court. Arguably, waiting for legislative recognition of same-sex marriage is LESS appropriate in this situation in a Constitutional Republic, because legally speaking, there shouldn't be anything there for the legislature to confer - marriage is a fundamental Constitutional right, and therefore already belonged to same sex couples. The court case was simply necessary to compel the state to recognize a right that already existed.

Yes!! :worship: I think the most groundbreaking thing they said was that gay and lesbian couples clearly fall under strict scrutiny, which courts in the past have been hesitant to do and which makes taking away their rights (i.e., not letting them get married) much more difficult. They're basically treating sexual orientation the same way you would treat any other immutable characteristic. This really says a lot and is a major step in the right direction. The question is, how far will it go?
 
Yes!! :worship: I think the most groundbreaking thing they said was that gay and lesbian couples clearly fall under strict scrutiny, which courts in the past have been hesitant to do and which makes taking away their rights (i.e., not letting them get married) much more difficult. They're basically treating sexual orientation the same way you would treat any other immutable characteristic. This really says a lot and is a major step in the right direction. The question is, how far will it go?

Actually, my point was that the judge was careful NOT to find that sexual orientation was a suspect classification. Rather, the case was decided on the grounds of GENDER discrimination, which is already recognized as a suspect classification. The California ban on same sex marriage had the effect of denying the right to marry to a prospective spouse, solely on the basis of the gender of the prospective partner. The judge determined that such interference with the Constitutional right to marry, without advancing an important governmental interest, was an Equal Protection and Due Process violation.
 
Actually, my point was that the judge was careful NOT to find that sexual orientation was a suspect classification. Rather, the case was decided on the grounds of GENDER discrimination, which is already recognized as a suspect classification. The California ban on same sex marriage had the effect of denying the right to marry to a prospective spouse, solely on the basis of the gender of the prospective partner. The judge determined that such interference with the Constitutional right to marry, without advancing an important governmental interest, was an Equal Protection and Due Process violation.

The way I read it, he's applying strict scrutiny to gays and lesbians because they are a suspect class. Gender is only a quasi suspect class and therefore decisions based on gender fall only under intermediate scrutiny. He dances around the subject by saying that since the law doens't even meet rational review it's a non issue but he also calls gays and lesbians a suspect class. This is huge. Ultimately he's set a precedent, hopefully, to offer gays and lesbians more protection then they would be offered falling under a quasi suspect class like gender (and which they have fallen under in the past, see Lawrence v. TX). This is the biggest part of that decision and the part which, to me, makes it appear that this isn't a gender decision at all. But, we can both read this differently.

Ultimately, this is a historic decision and I think we can agree on that even if we read the decision somewhat differently.
 
I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I'm not going to be silent just because I am in the majority.

It's sad that the voice of the people of California has been overturned.
Some democracy.

It's sad that there is so much indifference to morality in today's world.

I wonder when the push will come to take "In God We Trust" off the money we use. It's become clear that we no longer trust in God.

Sad!
 

I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I'm not going to be silent just because I am in the majority.

It's sad that the voice of the people of California has been overturned.
Some democracy.

It's sad that there is so much indifference to morality in today's world.

I wonder when the push will come to take "In God We Trust" off the money we use. It's become clear that we no longer trust in God.

Sad!

Whether or not it's moral is not for a court to decide. Morality is a personal thing.

The courts are ruling on whether or not it's LEGAL.
 
first off i am on your side. anybody that knows me will tell you that. i am a frustrated freedom fighter. but, i have always marveled at the fact that one of the main reasons for all of this is not being mentioned............spousal workplace benefits. i feel the actual marriage is a byproduct. in other words you can have the committment without the paperwork but not the medical and survivorship. so therein lies the victory.
 
I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I'm not going to be silent just because I am in the majority.

It's sad that the voice of the people of California has been overturned.
Some democracy.

It's sad that there is so much indifference to morality in today's world.

I wonder when the push will come to take "In God We Trust" off the money we use. It's become clear that we no longer trust in God.

Sad!

Kev...I'm not going to flame you....but I do have to ask you a question.

How would my marrying John affect you (or anyone)? How would your world change?

John and I live together already. We share our lives just as any other couple share theirs.

The difference it would make to us would be incredible. I'd be able to make medical decisions for John and he for me. He'd be person to inherit my little pile of stuff should something happen to me. There would be insurance benefits as his legal spouse....and tax benefits.

I could go on and on, but you get my point.

50 years ago, morality stated a black person couldnt marry a white person.

The moral majority tried to stop that too.

Has that decision adversely affected you or your family?

Allowing us the same rights as the rest of the population wont affect you either and do you really feel that the "moral" majority has the right to take away my rights.

The fact that I have to ask these questions saddens me more than I can say.
 
Whether or not it's moral is not for a court to decide. Morality is a personal thing.

The courts are ruling on whether or not it's LEGAL.

Therein lies the problem. Some think that morality is a personal thing. It's not personal, because no one is completely isolated. One person's actions effect those around them. Morality is a social thing. It effects everyone in the society.
 
I guess if the courts do not respect the will of the people. The people of California are just going to have to vote on a constitutional change.
 
Therein lies the problem. Some think that morality is a personal thing. It's not personal, because no one is completely isolated. One person's actions effect those around them. Morality is a social thing. It effects everyone in the society.

Who I love does not affect anyone else but me, and that person.
 
I'm sure I'll be flamed for this, but I'm not going to be silent just because I am in the majority.
as for the Moral Majority, which technically does not exist, it has always been a bunch of rabble rousers hiding behind their religion. "this is my opinion only, does not reflect the opionions of anyone else in my family including my dog....plus tax and tags."
 
It's sad that there is so much indifference to morality in today's world.

It's become clear that we no longer trust in God.

Sad!

Wow.

Let me tell you something, honey.

(edited for The Dis)

God made me a proud gay man. This has nothing to do with a lack of morality or trust. This has to do with equal rights for everyone.
 
Therein lies the problem. Some think that morality is a personal thing. It's not personal, because no one is completely isolated. One person's actions effect those around them. Morality is a social thing. It effects everyone in the society.

I couldn't agree more, and I think that hatred and discrimination borne of ignorance is the highest form of immorality.
 
Folks, as much as this pains me, this has nowhere to go but into the political/ religious arena.

I hope that some day, people will see that allowing all people the same freedoms and rights is good for everyone and the moral thing to do.

With that, I will have to close this thread.
 
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