Pro Choice or Not

[Ariel Mae]

I couldn't resist reading the post...haven't read any others, though!

And everyone appears to agree that the say should have no legal effect. That say should not mean he can veto the woman's decision.

Everyone? So, you can speak for every poster in this thread?

And who's talking about him 'vetoing' or 'forcing' his opinion/decision on the woman? It's about equal say. Not one person has said, "The father is the way to go. He has full say, what he says goes." At least, not in the language I speak!

Personally, my view (and this is the last time I'm going to say it...debunk it, all you want...I no longer care. What I care is that I'm devout in my view, and that I'm not so easily swayed in it.) is that the woman is not the 'end all, tell all' say. If she and her male come to an agreement, and it's the males', so be it. If she and her male come to an agreement, and it's hers, so be it, then. I believe it can go either way. Just. My. View. I don't speak for anyone but myself, in this. If they both come to the same decision, so be it, then, also.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Too young.

I'm always 'too young'! *pouts*

 

[chobie]

I have said over and over I DON"T KNOW. That is why I suggested we have the discussion.

Chobie, since we already know you feel that man should have no real input into the decision, answer this.

Tha man wants the child but the woman doesn't so she has an abortion. The man is distraught over the loss of his unborn child and becomes mentally ill. Should the woman provide financial assistance to the man if it is shown that it was her decision that caused his illness?

I said he should not have a legal input in the decision.

If he could show that she had the abortion to cause him mental harm, then maybe.

I have a friend who was persuaded not to have an abortion by the father who promised he would take of her and the baby. She gave up a full college scholarship and 6 months after the baby was born he was gone.

If she ever gets the back child support, should she also be able to recover the amount of money the lost opportunity of the college scholarship cost her? The mental anguish of being of being a single mom? How about the child, should he be able to collect from his father the pain and suffering of being deserted by him?

 

[chobie]

I couldn't resist reading the post...haven't read any others, though!



Everyone? So, you can speak for every poster in this thread?

And who's talking about him 'vetoing' or 'forcing' his opinion/decision on the woman? It's about equal say. Not one person has said, "The father is the way to go. He has full say, what he says goes." At least, not in the language I speak!

Personally, my view (and this is the last time I'm going to say it...debunk it, all you want...I no longer care. What I care is that I'm devout in my view, and that I'm not so easily swayed in it.) is that the woman is not the 'end all, tell all' say. If she and her male come to an agreement, and it's the males', so be it. If she and her male come to an agreement, and it's hers, so be it, then. I believe it can go either way. Just. My. View. I don't speak for anyone but myself, in this. If they both come to the same decision, so be it, then, also.

If you are going to make a big production out of ignoring me, then ignore me.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Frankly it comes down to the old addage...if you play, you pay. If you don't want to get a woman pregnant then don't do the deed and vice versa.

If you choose to ignore the fact that she may get pregnant and then get an abortion, then that is your price of admission.

 

[chobie]

I'm always 'too young'! *pouts*

How old are you? We once had a 13 year old on this board that held her own quite well in abortion debates.

 

[Ariel Mae]

How old are you? We once had a 13 year old on this board that held her own quite well in abortion debates.

Recently turned 19. (Somehow, for some reason, before I even took your post out of ignore, I knew what this was going to be a question of...)

I get my information from:

Personal experience (friends)

Research (internet, mostly...but some medical texts....but most of it comes from opinions of friends, family, and peers. As I sit and ponder it, really, that's all we have: Opinions. One for one side, and another for the next.)

 

[JennyMominRI]

Opinions. One for one side, and another for the next.)

Well, there's always science.

 

[happygirl]

100% Pro life, never a good reason to kill a baby

 

[declansdad]

I said he should not have a legal input in the decision.

If he could show that she had the abortion to cause him mental harm, then maybe.

I have a friend who was persuaded not to have an abortion by the father who promised he would take of her and the baby. She gave up a full college scholarship and 6 months after the baby was born he was gone.

If she ever gets the back child support, should she also be able to recover the amount of money the lost opportunity of the college scholarship cost her? The mental anguish of being of being a single mom? How about the child, should he be able to collect from his father the pain and suffering of being deserted by him?

Wow, you answered a question. Why would he have to show that she had the abortion to cause him harm? If the abortion did cause him harm, why shouldn't that be enough.

As to your question, she should be able to collect the child support but not the lost scholarship. I have met plenty of women who attend college while pregnant so I don't see the need to include that.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Well, there's always science.

Well, quite honestly, look at how many times science has been wrong!

Science is another side to the debate. Three sides. My mistake on the two.

 

[declansdad]

How come I've never met any of these men?

Is there a rash of men somewhere mourning the fact that they are not fathers?

At this point, I think it would be fair to say the law, as it stands now, works just fine. All the fine tuning suggested in the last umpteenth pages would do absolutely nothing except add more confusion.

It works fine as long as you are not the father who wanted the child. And why shouldn't things be discussed? If laws weren't discussed, we would all be living with many laws that we wouldn't agree with.

 

[chobie]

Wow, you answered a question. Why would he have to show that she had the abortion to cause him harm? If the abortion did cause him harm, why shouldn't that be enough.

As to your question, she should be able to collect the child support but not the lost scholarship. I have met plenty of women who attend college while pregnant so I don't see the need to include that.

For someone who seems concerned about the integrity of this discussion you sure seem to be unable to resist the cheap shots.


He should have to show she had the abortion to cause him harm because we as a society do not go around making everyone pay for decisions they made that affected our lives in a negative way. There has to be some intention to cause harm or a reckless disregard for harm that may be caused. If a man can establish those elements in a court of law and the jury feels he should be awarded damages, then so be it.

 

[chobie]

Well, there's always science.

Science, schmience.

 

[2manypets]

OK, I just polled the men in my life (DH, friends, friends spouses) They are all under the impression that it's the women's body and she has the right to do as she see's fit for herself. Even if the "donor" wants the baby, it's still up to the woman.

 

[smartestnumber5]

To restate my opinion, to kind of clear things up, bring things up to speed/topic:

I am pro choice.

I am also pro-father's rights. I believe (you may not agree, and if you don't, so be it. To each their own. I cannot prove my viewpoint, but I see no need to, as it's a personal belief) the father should have a say in the matter. A voice, a chance/option to do something, instead of idly sit by while the mother of his child 'kills' it. Why do I believe this? Based on a friends' experiences with abortion. She and her, now divorced husband, have had an abortion. She wanted it, he didn't. She went ahead and had it, without even so much as asking his viewpoint, and he went through a lot of stress with it. Sure, he didn't birth it/carry it, nor did he feel the physical pains of the abortion/aftermath, but he did feel the mental strains and burnout that accompanied the stress. He would ask, "Why did she do it? Why didn't she ask me before killing my offspring?". It wasn't so much that he didn't want the abortion (they were both far too young, and far too unstable in the financial department, to handle/care for a child, and neither wanted to see their child put into an adoption home), but he wanted a say in it. He was a wreck, for weeks, after she had the abortion. They stayed together, for quite a while, but they eventually split. Not because of the abortion itself, but because the mother was a clear advocate of 'woman's rights', and she was giving the father no say in their sex life, or their offspring. He later found out that was the second abortion she had had. He was able to say, for this one, "At least I was told about it."

That's my view.

How's about yours?

I don't understand how you're getting to the viewpoint you seem to be espousing from this anecdote. If this is an accurate story of what happened, then it seems these folks must have had serious relationship problems. I don't know why he stayed with her if she were completely insensitive to him to the point of not even asking for his thoughts or caring out his emotions. (I'm simply assuming things were as your friend says they were; of course, the woman in question might have a different story to tell which might make my sympathies shift if I heard it. There could always be reasons which would vindicate her--maybe there were other relationship problems like abuse or control issues on his part which made her think that allowing him to know about the abortion beforehand or ask his opinion would lead to him trying to control her. Maybe she thought that he would be too emotional to be able to make the sensible choice of abortion and thought that she would take that burden on for him by not asking him to be part of something he morally disapproved of. Could be a ton of reasons. I'll just assume none of those are the case.) But the problems in this case are not problems related to abortion--they are much more general relationship problems. If my GF made a major life decision for herself which in some ways affected me and she didn't even bother to talk to me about it, then this would be a problem. It would be a problem because our relationship is built on communication, support, and trust. It doesn't really matter whether the issue is having an abortion, switching anti-depressants, going back to school, buying an expensive item, etc (all of which she should and does have 100% decision making power about).

But notice, the issue here is the kind of relationship my GF and I have. It has nothing to do with any rights of mine. And certainly, if we had a different kind of relationship--say we were casual sex bodies or a one-night stand--none of those things would apply. Imagine if your friend had had a one night stand and then found out that this woman (who's last name he doesn't know) got pregnant and had an abortion. The kind of upset that your friend experienced seemed from your description to be a matter of a person he loved not bothering to talk to him about an important decision that affects both their lives. But how could he have had such upset if a random one night stand didn't ask him his opinion?

If all you are saying is "when a woman is in a decent relationship with someone she loves and she is pregnant unexpectedly she should talk through her options and at least consider (where "considering" has no legal ramifications) her partner's viewpoint just like she hopefully would for any other major life decision" then I'm guessing all of us would agree. It seems, though, that you are looking for more than that. So in the situation of your friend, what do you think the woman should have done? I'm guessing we can all agree she should have talked out her options with her husband. Now suppose her husband could just not bring himself to agree to an abortion; sure it makes sense financially and in terms of their age, but he just can't shake the idea that it would be "killing their baby." She does not see it as "killing a baby"--in fact, she does find the clump of cells to be at all valuable. She knows that the abortion will hurt her husband and she doesn't want that and thinks it will be a big strain on their marriage because he would resent her. But she also simply cannot feel okay about donating the use of her body for almost a year to make her husband happy; this would also be a big strain on their marriage because she would resent him and possibly the eventual baby. So either way, their marriage is going to be in deep trouble--they are already having relationship issues just talking through their options. She is now 11 weeks and 6 days pregnant--1 more day and she can no longer get an abortion in her state. It's been over 2 months and neither her nor her husband have changed their minds.

Now in this situation, if she says, "Honey I am very sorry, but I cannot continue with this pregnancy. I know it will hurt you emotionally, but it would also hurt me emotionally--as well as physically--to continue a pregnancy I do not want, and frankly it hurts me that you would even ask me to do something like that for you. And, as you admit, we are clearly not ready financially or emotionally to have a baby. Having a baby in this situation would just strain our relationship and likely lead us to break up, in which case we'd be in even worse financial shape being divorced parents. So I have to do this with or without your blessing." Now if she says that and she goes and gets the abortion, has she given him the "say" you are looking for?

 

[smartestnumber5]

I have said over and over I DON"T KNOW. That is why I suggested we have the discussion.

Like others I'm still kind of confused about the discussion you want to have. But in my post above responding to Ariel Mae I've tried to give some details of a hypothetical situation.

Is that a situation in which you'd say that the woman has properly given her husband a "say"?

 

[MrsKreamer]

I'm sorry, but if the father did not want the mother to have an abortion I think it will affect him more then the mother. Imagine wanting a baby and knowing your baby is on the way and then someone decides to kill it, wouldn't the mental pain be more unbearable then the physical pain that the mother goes through.

I had an ex boyfriend who went through this. He had major trust issues with women after that.

 

[jamimb]

Do people start these threads to puposefully get people to argue. Whatever the reason I can hardly resist sharing my views. I am pro choice as long as that choice is made BEFORE you get knocked up. I fully understand that there is no choice for rape victims and such (although I still do not think it is right) I do beleive your right for "Choice" ends when are stupid enough to have unprotected sex. I hate to hear of women using abortions as a form of birth control. It's ridiculous. You have a choice alright. You dont want a baby use birth control!!!!!

 

[Luv'sTink]

Do people start these threads to puposefully get people to argue. Whatever the reason I can hardly resist sharing my views. I am pro choice as long as that choice is made BEFORE you get knocked up. I fully understand that there is no choice for rape victims and such (although I still do not think it is right) I do beleive your right for "Choice" ends when are stupid enough to have unprotected sex. I hate to hear of women using abortions as a form of birth control. It's ridiculous. You have a choice alright. You dont want a baby use birth control!!!!

I totally agree!!