Pro Choice or Not

[PoohnPglet]

What he's saying is very clear. I've yet to find a post in this thread of declansdad's that isn't clear/obvious and to the point.

I have been just hanging back, lurking if you will, on this thread just to see what the discussion will lead to and I must admit that I am having a very hard time understanding what you are trying to say.

What I am hearing is that you think that both the woman and the man should have a say. Ok - got that. However, the confusion for me comes from what you are trying to say regarding when the woman and the man cannot agree.

You may think that you are being clear, but it is not at all. So, if the woman and the man sit down, hash it out - she puts in her say, he puts in his say - and they cannot come to an agreement - who gets the final say?

 

[chobie]

I'm not going to waste my time going through a thread to feed a troll, especially one that keeps diverting the topic at hand, avoiding showing their proof on their assertions.

So now I'm a troll Resorting to name calling...good tactic.

 

[punkin]

Wow. Almost 3/4 of the women polled want to keep abortion legal. Do you think we are representative of the population as a whole? It just makes me wonder why a small (but obviously very vocal) minority keeps trying to outlaw something that 3/4 of the people who could be affected think should be legal?

 

[chobie]

Wow. Almost 3/4 of the women polled want to keep abortion legal. Do you think we are representative of the population as a whole? It just makes me wonder why a small (but obviously very vocal) minority keeps trying to outlaw something that 3/4 of the people who could be affected think should be legal?

Actually, I'm kind of surprised because I thought that Dis was more Conservative then the population as a whole. I think that most people are in favor of some sort of restrictions on abortion, be it parental notifications, waiting periods, restrictions after the first 12 weeks, but only the minority wants to outlaw entirely.

 

[The Mystery Machine]

Wow. Almost 3/4 of the women polled want to keep abortion legal. Do you think we are representative of the population as a whole? It just makes me wonder why a small (but obviously very vocal) minority keeps trying to outlaw something that 3/4 of the people who could be affected think should be legal?

It is totally blowing me away too!!!!

I am thinking why did people vote for Bush knowing his agenda was to abolish abortion. That was the reason for his election.

It really has me stumped.

 

[declansdad]

I said I guessed and it was what I thought, not a defintive judgment. I'm not the only one who can't figure out what you are trying to say.

You can either keep getting angry at me, ignore me, or try to clarify what exactly it means when you assert that the man should have some say in the decision.

OK maybe if I write reaaaaal slooooooow you'll get it this time.

I have said over and over that I believe that the man's should have a voice in the matter. I have not said that the man should make the decision.

I am not anti-abortion, in fact in my first post on this thread I stated I was pro-choice.

I have said many times that I don't have an answer for this situation and I was hoping that it would be discussed.

Unfortunately you have decided to twist everything that I have said and put it in a context that allows you to confuse what has been really said. You have not tried to discuss the issue, you just keep repeating the same thing, that a man can speak but it doesn't mean anything anyway so he may as well just shut up.

 

[declansdad]

You may think that you are being clear, but it is not at all. So, if the woman and the man sit down, hash it out - she puts in her say, he puts in his say - and they cannot come to an agreement - who gets the final say?

I have answered this many times, I don't know who has the final say so let's discuss it.

 

[chobie]

It is totally blowing me away too!!!!

I am thinking why did people vote for Bush knowing his agenda was to abolish abortion. That was the reason for his election.

It really has me stumped.

I think most people voted for Bush, this last time anyway, because we were at war and they didn't want to change leadership and Kerry didn't excite enough Democrats to go out and vote.

My cousins all voted for Bush and when I asked them about overturning Roe v Wade, they all said they were not worried, they didn't think it could ever happen. Yeah, right.

 

[katerkat]

Actually, I'm kind of surprised because I thought that Dis was more Conservative then the population as a whole. I think that most people are in favor of some sort of restrictions on abortion, be it parental notifications, waiting periods, restrictions after the first 12 weeks, but only the minority wants to outlaw entirely.

Well, I voted (hold your pants) to keep it legal, because I want abortion to be legal and RARE. What's funny is I know Chobie agrees with me but considers herself pro-choice while I consider myself pro-life. But as a pro-life person, I focus more on what we can do to make abortion RARE rather than illegal. And yes, in all seriousness, we plan on adopting, hopefully from foster care, when our son is a bit older. I guess that makes me an oddity on the pro-life side. But I will still always consider myself pro-life and not pro-choice.

 

[chobie]

I have answered this many times, I don't know who has the final say so let's discuss it.

Okay then, the woman should have the final say because a man should not be able to force a medical procedure on a woman even if his sperm was deposited in her body.

Your turn...

 

[chobie]

OK maybe if I write reaaaaal slooooooow you'll get it this time.

I have said over and over that I believe that the man's should have a voice in the matter. I have not said that the man should make the decision.

I am not anti-abortion, in fact in my first post on this thread I stated I was pro-choice.

I have said many times that I don't have an answer for this situation and I was hoping that it would be discussed.

Unfortunately you have decided to twist everything that I have said and put it in a context that allows you to confuse what has been really said. You have not tried to discuss the issue, you just keep repeating the same thing, that a man can speak but it doesn't mean anything anyway so he may as well just shut up.

I never said he should shut up. I said if he does not have a legal say in the matter, then your opinion begins and ends with he should have a say. And I agree with that --he can say whatever he wants, but not legally force his wishes on the woman's body.

 

[declansdad]

Okay then, the woman should have the final say because a man should not be able to force a medical procedure on a woman even if his sperm was deposited in her body.

Your turn...

Man you are dense.

I am not saying the other side is the way to go, I'm saying discuss the options. Can anyone suggest a way for both the man and the woman to have a real voice in the decision?

 

[punkin]

Well, I voted (hold your pants) to keep it legal, because I want abortion to be legal and RARE. What's funny is I know Chobie agrees with me but considers herself pro-choice while I consider myself pro-life. But as a pro-life person, I focus more on what we can do to make abortion RARE rather than illegal. And yes, in all seriousness, we plan on adopting, hopefully from foster care, when our son is a bit older. I guess that makes me an oddity on the pro-life side. But I will still always consider myself pro-life and not pro-choice.

I'm militantly pro-choice and I also want to keep abortion legal but rare. Imagine that!

 

[chobie]

Man you are dense.

Insults, huh? That is almost as effective as name-calling.

 

[LuvDuke]

Wow. Almost 3/4 of the women polled want to keep abortion legal. Do you think we are representative of the population as a whole? It just makes me wonder why a small (but obviously very vocal) minority keeps trying to outlaw something that 3/4 of the people who could be affected think should be legal?

Absolutely, this is representative of the country as a whole. The mainstream position of most Americans is abortion should be legal in some circumstances. That has never changed from when the Roe v Wade ruling has been handed down. The positions may've changed a percentage point or 2, but this country has never been in favor of banning ALL abortions.

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm

It's not just that the a small percentage is trying to outlaw something that most Americans feel should be legal in some circumstances. It's that a small percentage took over a political party and that political party is the tail that's been wagging the dog. No great surprise, it's the Republican party.

But, now their rhetoric may just become reality and they're running scared trying to change the debate from "baby killer" to "state's rights". If and when Roe v Wade is overturned, you can kiss the Republican party goodbye even after they kiss the rightwing goodbye.

I almost wish Roe v Wade was overturned. Too many politicians have gotten too much mileage out of being "right-to-life" when there were no consequences because the Supreme Court would never overturn Roe v Wade. Circumstances have changed. I want to see how many of these phonies will still be "right-to-life" when it actually counts for something. My guess is they'll find the "right-to-privacy" so fast their little, pointed heads will spin.

 

[PoohnPglet]

I have answered this many times, I don't know who has the final say so let's discuss it.

Ok - from a person that has just been observing from the outside here, I think that is what chobie and others were trying to say. The woman has final say. Yes - she should definitely get input from the father about his position.

We are arguing this as if there are a bunch of men out there pining that their child has been aborted and they could do nothing. And who knows maybe there are, and maybe there might be some women out there willing to go through the pregnancy and delivery and let the father raise the child.

But you know what? I really do not think that this is the case in most instances. It has been my experience that the difference comes from the man wanting an abortion and the woman not wanting one. These are usually the men that claim entrapment - as if men have not been picking up and walking away at anytime. Including years after the child has been born. Exactly who has been trapped? (Yeah - let's not get into the whole "he has to pay child support" thing. Whatever he pays in a monthly fee usually doesn't even come close to the actual cost of raising a child or even addresses the day to day needs of a child.)

So, until there is 100% effective female and male BC and/or the technology for men to carry a child, it is the woman's final say.

 

[LuvDuke]

Man you are dense.

I am not saying the other side is the way to go, I'm saying discuss the options. Can anyone suggest a way for both the man and the woman to have a real voice in the decision?

Woman to man: I'm pregnant and I want to have an abortion.

Man to woman: I don't want you to.

Woman to man: Thanks for your opinion, but I'm having one anyway.

Other than codifying the man having a real voice in the decision, and that isn't going to happen, the answer is NO.

And if you want to codify it into law, please provide some real world examples including forcing the woman to have or not have an abortion. Ultimately, that is what you're talking about. There is no way to codify your position unless you give one person veto power over another.

 

[Ariel Mae]

Insults, huh? That is almost as effective as name-calling.

It's more like stating a fact....

He asked for a discussion, not a statement pushed as fact. A discussion begins, and ends, with the open minded, not with, "This is how it should be...", but with, "Well, it could be this...but it could also be this. What do you think?" And in answering a question in a discussion, it's always best to be clear when differentiating between fact and opinion. "Well, I think..." vs, "According to *insert statistic here*..."

 

[punkin]

If and when Roe v Wade is overturned, you can kiss the Republican party goodbye even after they kiss the rightwing goodbye.

I am not sure the republican party will disappear. There are other issues in which they can take the lead and still have something valuable to say. Of course, the right wing would have to be jettisoned first!

 

[The Mystery Machine]

When women can have a say in the removal of a man's , after he rapes someone then he can have a say.